200 amp hour LFP POUCH CELLS???

Tecnodave · May 2021

I have recently acquired a “powerwall” which contains 16 ea. LFP Pouch cells. It is a Best Sun New Energy Fution Powerwall from China........I know 200 amp pouch cell?? I have a hard time with that as I have never seen a pouch cell over 50 a.h. This unit contains 4 stacks of cells about 10” X12 “ by 4 “ thick for the 4 cells which are clamped in plastic frames. All 4 stacks are connected in series, monitored by a BMS, looks like a DALY but characters are all Chinese, and an all-in-one inverter/charger/MPPT controller. It sells on Amazon for $3995.00. I’m not interested in using it as is as it is 230 volts in and out and I don’t need 230 volts,......all my solar gear is 24 volts so I want to salvage the battery stacks and use with my existing system.

Tecnodave · May 2021

Searching the internet for the numbers found on the cells I turn up a pouch cell on Alibaba rated at 50 a.h. for use in a e.v.

mcgivor · May 2021

Is it possible that there are 4 per cell block that would make up 200Ah, they are, according to the specifications only 10.8 mm thick. Having 4 in a stack would be 43.2mm or approximately 1.7 ", looks about that but it's difficult to judge without a scale to the image provided, the image below has the same numbers with the exception of the final letter being C rather than D.

Tecnodave · May 2021

The assembled plastic frames contain 4 cells stacked with a thickness of approx 4 inches 9 1/4 inch by 11 1/4 inch
i have not disassembled the “cell packs” . The 50 amp hour pouches are much smaller. Look carefully at the pictures, there are 4 stacks of cells and each contain 4 cells. These are by far the largest pouch cells that I have ever seen anywhere. The ones used in electric cars are much smaller maybe 5 X 7 inches and 3/8 inch thick. These cells are just at 1 inch thick each! The stack of 4 cells is 3 7/8“ to 4“ thick for the stack of 4 cells. It’s hard to get a true measurement of thickness as there are welded threaded pads on the back of the housing that the Allen headed bolts attach the “cell packs to the outer housing. This thing is about 220 to 250 pounds! That’s mostly battery, the inverter is cheep tinny Chinese junk.....

inch thick.

MarkC · May 2021

Technodave;
You possibly identified the cells as pouch type for "use in an e.v." (electric vehicle??). The chemistry for the Best Sun is listed as Li-iron-phosphate which seems unusual for use in commuter EVs, although hard to correlate with all the emerging nuances in chemistries (Ford/SK Innovations, GM/Ultium, Tesla??).
The cost appears to be around $400/kWh including BMS/inverter/mppt electronics. Do you know of any other "powerwall" that is in this price range?

Photowhit · May 2021

"Powerwall" Battery bank

Tecnodave · May 2021

@MarkC

The search on the internet of the number found on the pouch cells turned up a 50 a.h. Cell for use in a e.v. This was on Alibaba.com. I have done extensive searching everywhere on 200 a.h. Pouch cells and can not find one instance of a pouch cell that big. I do have and use small pouch cells that were removed from MacBooks but those are not LiFePO4 cells. I have seen both LiPo and LFP cells in pouches. They are used in electric vehicles and embedded in mission critical medical equipment. These definitely are Pouch cells......look at the pictures here and on Diy solar forum and MidNite.forum.com. they are Pouch cells

Have you looked at BYD automobiles, China, all LFP......Tesla’s new Chinese e.v. Is all LFP at the insistence of the Chinese government....BYD buses manufactured in Lancaster,California....all.....LFP

Tecnodave · May 2021

@Photowhit

powerwall is how the manufacturer is labeling it....Search Amazon for “Fution Powerwall”. It’s more than a battery, it contains inverter/charger/MPPT controller and a BMS and the necessary breakers etc.

Tecnodave · May 2021

Well, if they are not pouch cells, do tell, just what do I have. It’s posted on three forums and no one has said they have seen anything like it. They sure look like pouch cells and the voltages are LFP....so just what do I have? Steve_S please do chime in on this one.

MarkC · May 2021

Only BYD knowledge that I have is that Houston Metro tested their metro bus a couple of years ago and found that the battery used a significant amount of it's capacity trying to cool a hot bus that was left in the sun (probably 130+ oF). Interesting that China mandates a battery technology - maybe until they can steal the Ultium, SK's, whatever

A recent announcement by Tesla might be related? https://www.torquenews.com/1/lfp-batteries-pros-and-cons-elon-shifts-some-teslas-lfp
Have you been able to identify the actual cell types yet?

Tecnodave · May 2021

They are without a doubt Lithium Ferro Phosphate and if they are not pouch cells I sure don’t know just what they are, they look just like the LFP pouch cells on Alibaba and many other websites, they don’t even remotely resemble prismatic cells as they have no outer casing, only an aluminum foil pouch 9 1/4 inches by 11 1/4 inches and 1 inch thick each cell. So I’m stumped and no one here or diysolarforum or MidNite forum has a clue as to just what I have......

mcgivor · May 2021

mcgivor · May 2021

All indications refer to the cells having that number designation as prysmatic pouch cells, https://www.dhgate.com/product/a123-systems-prismatic-pounch-cell-wx1213250/472276510.html Alibaba has the same.

Tecnodave · May 2021

I do find quite a number of pouch cells that have that same number but most come back as a 50 amp LFP pouch cell about 5 by 7 inches, mine are 9.25 by 11.25 inches and are huge compared to any listed anywhere . Please note the number on my cells is WX12I3250 not WX1213250. Fifth character is I not an ONE . I’m going to guess that number is the chemical composition of the cell as most of the pouch cells in the 10 a.h. To 80 a.h. Range have that number. I’m sure no expert on this but I have people on 4 forums stumped on this, really it’s not April fools, I’m stumped

mcgivor · May 2021

The use of the letter "I" in the WX12I3250 number is a poor choice, usually "I" and "O" are not used to avoid mistakes as I obviously made, however when searching the amended number it lists a 50 Ah cell but in the product it refers to it with both WX121 and WX12I, somewhat confusing.

Note in both product decriptions from different sites, they list the cell as a LiFePo4 LIPO....not simply LiFePo4, can't find that in any search, I understand when you say you're stumped, the charging / discharging information seems to be consistent wherever that number is used, so would it be safe to assume that thats what needs to be used? My guess is yes since it seems consistent and furthermore LiFePo4 are the lowest nominal cell voltage so hard to damage anything else in the lithium chemistry.

Another option would be to hook some panels to it and monitor the individual cell (block) voltage.

What information are you needing other than establishing charging information?

Tecnodave · May 2021

If the box is rated at 102400 w.h. at 51.2 volts and there are 16 cells, then the a.h. Of each cell would be 200 a.h. so these could not be 50 a.h. If that were true then the whole battery capacity would be 50 a.h. times 51.2 volts equals 2560 watts or 2.56 k.w. so that number can’t be the one that identifies the battery, maybe that number just refers to the chemical composition of the pouch, I’ve noticed that all these pouches have the same numbering sequence. Ive also noticed LFP and LIFO designation. I’ve searched many hours on this, currently it’s posted here , at MidNite.forum, diysolarforum, and solar panel talk forum. Nobody has said anything about 200 amp pouch cells.........THAT IS STRANGE! No one is listing 200 a.h. pouch cells but here they are......I can’t be the only person in possession of these....

I really don’t need any more documentation, I’ve got the charge specs on the unit. I’ve no use for a 48 volt battery when I already have several very good inverters, a Exeltech XL-1100 a Magnasine MS4024AE, and a Cotek SK-1500 ALL 24 volt. I’m looking for two BMS’s for 8S configurations, 1: , I do not want to disassemble the stacks of 4 cells and maybe risk damaging the cells by reconnecting as 2P8S, it makes more sense to me just to split the whole battery in the middle and end up with two 8S units with a separate BMS on each. One battery of this size can easily handle the 48 amps of the Exeltech inverter at full load. I use the smaller inverter 95% of the time due to it being more energy efficient at the average power that I use. Both in parallel will do just fine , probably better than a 2P8S configuration with only one BMS. The Overkill is $127.00 so that is not a huge investment for a 200 a.h. Pack at 25.1 volts

Mind the fact that I didn’t pay anything for the unit, it was offered to me for my expertise in finding the fail mode. ( I was hired by the contractor/installer and the homeowner to find the root cause of the unit doing damage to the household electronics.)........real obvious, it’s 230 volts single phase....not 120/240 volt split phase....took me all of a few minutes reading the specs label to find the fail mode. With no neutral on the inverter the output loads were put in an unbalanced series/parallel string. After advising the homeowner of the consequences of using a non UL compliant device and the risk to his million dollar home he wanted it out of there. I hauled it away as usable junk. BRAND NEW.... I charge $100/hour for engineering expertise so I’m out a few hours travel time and salvage to remove it. It is already damaged, case is bent from a drop, it’s quite heavy, I can’t lift it. Has no resale value here in the states and certainly not worth the hassle of trying to sell it to someone who does have 230 volts single phase, that doesn’t exist in North America or the northern half of South America. Any Brits want it? There will be left overs, a Daly BMS for 16S, a Chinese inverter charger combo....etc.they will be found on bulletin boards as is.....I do not support many things from overseas, they would have to be very high quality and I do not consider Chinese electronics to be quality. Just above garbage can level for 99 % of it!

tecno

mcgivor · May 2021

Only other thing I can think of is they were made to spec for the manufacturer of the unit, hense no commercial availability.

BB. · May 2021

I see that many companies label the smaller battery packs (like cell phone chargers, cell phone battery capacity, etc.) by the AH rating of the number of batteries in the pack...

I.e., if you have 2x 3,000 mAH (3 AH) Lithium Ion batteries @ 3.5 volts (or whatever) wired in series... They will tell you you have a 6,000 mAH battery pack--Even if they are wired in series and technically 7.0 Volts @ 3,000 mAH "packs" of batteries.

It sounds like marketing has written the specifications of those 5x 40 AH battery packs even those they are wired in series.

Sort of like those 5 HP air-compressors and shop vacuums that run on 120 VAC 15 amp circuits... Circuits that can only run a ~1-1.5 HP motor without popping the circuit breaker.

Example for vacuum... 5 HP peak (whatever that means) but runs on 900 Watts (~757 Watts per HP):

https://www.amazon.com/CRAFTSMAN-Gallon-Portable-Vacuum-Attachments/dp/B007C6KT3I

POWERFUL PERFORMANCE: 5.0 peak HP provides the power of a large vac in a small package; ideal for home, auto, jobsite and garage
900 watts

-Bill

Tecnodave · May 2021

In doing my research on LiFo and LFP pouch cells I find that many are custom designed to fit the space available, So many consumer devices have such a huge volume that it is cost efficient to design a battery cell just for that device so it is “purpose built” such as a battery for a specific cell phone. Example cell phones...An Apple cell phone will have a specially built battery for that particular model, it won’t fit a google android phone or even another variant of the iPhone. There is enough volume in that one product to design the battery for that one product, there is no cost efficiency in designing your cell phone to accommodate a “off the shelf” battery, it’s much cheaper and timely to design the battery around the product.

So I have seen other variants of the Fution unit that I have, all made in China, I suspect that they have the same type of pouch cells.

No Chinese or other manufacturers of this kind of gear shows open box photos of their assembled devices, you do not need that information for typical consumer use.

Those are the reasons that I can’t find any other instances of large pouch cells. They are out there.

Im thinking that the clamping frames and such is from maybe a large mission critical medical device would likely have this kind of battery cells, these could well be cells that were left over or rejected by a major medical equipment manufacturer, who has has their head inside of a CT Scanner.....that is something that you probably never see, not unless you are the manufacturers service rep. or the builder of such devices, there are no online hard core data sheets as to how that CT Scanner is configured.

Sorta like how cheep prismatic cells are rejects from auto manufacturers who pick the best and sell the rest. When I worked in the space communications industry I would go to Autonetics Spacecraft and Ford Aerospace and buy rejected electronics components, terminals, etc. for pennies on the dollar, way cheaper than any traditional source of components.

Big industry feeds small scale builders, sorta how it works.

MarkC · May 2021

Technodave;
Couple of "throw down" ideas for this "power wall"/battery pack:
1. Replace the traction battery in the older Gen Pruis - the voltage range seems very close
2. Build an off-grid solar system for US power with a SURT6000/SURT003 combo as the inverter/center tapped transformer - all quite cheap on ebay (I have one set left from my PRIUPS builds). Might be able to use the SURT003 directly with the contained (trash?) inverter to resolve the US power issue, but using the batteries only with the SURT5000/6000 will get to the 240 VAC to better match the voltage level.
Doubt either is worth the effort, but DIY'rs don't work that way.

Tecnodave · May 2021

@MarkC

I already have a use for the battery pack but not as-is I’ve been off grid for years now, my systems are all 24 volt with very high quality American made electronics. The batteries in this unit are 4 ea. 4S stacks of cells clamped in plastic frames/cell holders. I intend to disassemble this unit , scrap all the electronics and sell them to someone who wants to tinker. Salvage only the LFP cells complete with plastic frames/holders and make. 2 ea. 8S packs using a BMS on each stack then incorporate these into my existing systems. I’m researching the better BMS’s and am impressed with the Overkill. At 100 amps 24 volts this is quite enough to operate my Exeltech XP-1100 inverter, all of my 24 volt dc refrigerators as well as my dc-dc converters and cc/cv supplies that operate my lights and that provide low voltage for my various devices. With two separate banks I have 100% redundancy as I depend on solar alone to provide my electricity. With both banks in parallel there is sufficient power for my MagnaSine MS-4024AE inverter which I use for large loads, (rarely). I have medical needs for electricity 24/7/365 no fail...I won’t go into that as my personal medical is out of limits for discussion, suffice it to say I cannot trust Pigs, Goats, and Elephants to supply electricity 24/7/365 so I have 100% redundancy in my systems....two FLA batteries banks at 428 a.h. each, two very high end Charge Controllers (C-150’s) two very high end Inverters, Exeltech and MagnaSine, two standby controllers (Kid’s) spare inverters Cotek SK-1500 and SD-1500 etc, etc...
A pair of 200 a.h. LFP banks will fit in quite well, thank you.

With that amount of high end gear I do not need a Chinese all-in-one box with a cheapie inverter etc...

Inside joke for all you that are not “left coasters”........Pigs, Goats, and Elephants is the inside nickname for Pacific Gas & Electricity......our local electric utility that has to shut down the entire grid to avoid burning down California in a wind storm due to the fact that that they have done nil maintained on the state power grid for years and years.
Don't blame me, PG&E workers themselves came up with the name: Pigs, Goats, and Elephants

tecno.......Dave

MarkC · May 2021

Dave;
Curious - what's the inside scoop on CA fires, PG&E's culpibility, forest management issues, "climate change", etc? I believe that ERCOT is largely responsible for the "TX freeze" power failures as they have squandered many billions $$s ignoring/preparing for both summer and (now) winter grid stress/failure events. As a subsciber of Griddy (purchase the energy portion at cost for a monthly fee that averaged a few cents/kWh), it was NOT a Griddy problem that subscribers are on the hook for 10's thousands $$s for a 4 day event. ERCOT should have never set max prices (energy portion) of a kWh at $9 when the average is a few cents. Setting it at 10x the average max (say 30 cents/kWh) is reasonable IMO.

No matter how much money is exchanged during these infrequent events, if it's not used for it's stated purpose of building grid resilience, then it's a management/leadership failure.

Tecnodave · May 2021

MarkC,

The California PUC found that PG&E was 100% responsible for the largest fire that we have ever had and which killed at least 60 people (EDIT...84 dead) in that area. They failed to maintain high voltage distribution for so long that the insulator hangers worked through steel plates they were hung from causing the high tension wires to fall to the ground and ignite a fire right at that transmission line. CDF CalFire investigated very completely and found PG&E to be solely at fault and Cal PUC agreed with the findings. Now we have widespread power shutdowns to prevent this from happening again. Whenever there are high winds forecast by national weather service PG&E will shut down huge areas of the grid to avoid a fire. PG&E is filling bankruptcy again to protect their shareholders. It’s not a good situation, we have has weeks of no grid power due to this.

Locally PG&E is subcontracting most work to Cupertino Electric to maintain the network here, My shops are mere blocks from PG&E yards here in Watsonville and I only see a few service trucks there, most have been sold off. I have seen Cupertino Electric replacing poles on the 100 KV. lines that feed power from Moss Landing generation station to Santa Cruz. Locally Cupertino Electric has 40-50 service trucks compared to PG&E fleet of 5 service trucks. I ride bicycle daily down the Pajaro River levy and see everything in their yard almost daily. There is no hiding their yards from the Pajaro River Levy Trail. It’s like a ghost ship now.

Pigs, Goats, and Elephants does not have California consumers in mind, only their shareholders investment.

I did not make up that name, it was PG&E line workers that themselves coined that nickname......kinda fits

I have medical needs for small amounts of electricity and no time to push the start switch on my generator when I need that electricity. this is exactly why I have stand alone 100% redundant power systems. Two systems side by side, I don’t need that much power, but when I need it I need it! No Chinese hardware in my system....thank you

The ONLY time my systems are down is for routine maintaince, When my Cotek SK-1500 inverter failed it was only two switches to swap in the Exeltech XP-1100 watt inverter, and I always have that big MagnaSine MS4024AE that I use mainly to power my workshop.......I have a small workshop at home but I occupy a 5,000 s.f. building in Watsonville which has 200 amp 240 volt delta hi-leg service, no solar......permits etc. I have a total of 4 Onan generators as a backup. These are all ex-motorhome units that are electric start and are very reliable, but gas pigs, but they always start and run. Very low maintaince required.

Tecnodave · May 2021

Few more pics of the alleged 200 amp pouches,

I don’t have dainty hands....They are large to XL

No gimmicks here, that is my hand on the pouch cell....see if you can find one that large these photos were just now taken with an iPad and uploaded, they were not altered in any way. I have NEVER seen such a large pouch cell

BB. · May 2021

One of the circuits was built in 1919--Don't know maintenance history.
PGE Alerted To Risk of Worn Hooks Back in 1987 - NBC Bay Area

And PG&E has been notified as long as 1987 of these maintenance issues...

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/pge-alerted-to-risk-of-worn-hooks-back-in-1987/2194359/

Just simple wind and cyclic stresses have worn the hanger assemblies--In some cases to failure.

PGE's procedures require physically climbing towers to inspect hangers--Which they have not done for a long time(?).

-Bill

Tecnodave · May 2021

BB, That photo is exactly what I saw in the CalFire report, how many years of neglect does that represent, I don’t think I could swing that hook enough to do that

On the other hand who says wind power is dead.......LOL

MarkC · May 2021

wow! And I thought ERCOT was doing a lousy job by not ensuring that wind farms where properly winterized - and also inspecting cold weather protection on gas transmission/power generation facilities - the areas of stated responsibilities (according to the media anyway

)

What about forest management? Several years ago we spent over a week touring So. Dakota - and were amazed how well their forests were kept so cleared of underbrush - and looked so healthy.

Our electric coop will even come out and cut down/trim large trees that appear to be in danger of falling on the low voltage transmission lines. The ounce of prevention!

Tecnodave · May 2021

After much searching I did find out just what a WX12I3250 is....it’s the MSDS (manufacturer’s safety data sheet) for Lithium.......AHA! .....that is why we are finding that number on many LFP and LiPo cells.....who said that was a pert number....Alibaba you are wrong! Interesting that Yahoo’ing didn’t find it , Googling turned it right up...

kalinkoland · December 2021

Did you ever find out if your cells was actually LiFePO4 cells of LIPO cells?

200 amp hour LFP POUCH CELLS???

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