Sizing Small Solar System

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Crystal
Crystal Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
Very basic question...
How many solar panel watts are needed for two 114amphour flooded batteries in a 12 volt system?

Thanks!




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  • 706jim
    706jim Solar Expert Posts: 515 ✭✭✭✭
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    300
    Island cottage solar system with 2500 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1.3kw facing southwest 170watt ancient Arco's facing south. All panels in parallel for a 24 volt system. Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 30th year.
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
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    I would use 2 6 volt golf cart battery’s @ 215 amp hours and I would like to use 2 300 watt panels to charge it . 
     The panels are cheep enough . 
     I charge 16 215 amp hour battery’s with 4500 watts and I still get charged up if the sun comes out . 
     You could use less but there are a lot of 300 watt panels around . 😀
     your 114AH battery would be about the same 
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    More or less, 5% rate of charge (20 hour battery AH rating) can be OK for emergency/weekend/sunny season charging. 10% better for full time off grid and better battery life. 13%+ if you have poor sun (especially in winter, if you need power then) and/or larger loads.

    Assuming two 114 AH @ 12 volt batteries in parallel for 228 AH @ 12 volt battery bank:
    • 228 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 * 0.05 rate of charge = 215 Watt array minimum
    • 228 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 * 0.10 rate of charge = 429 Watt array nominal
    • 228 AH * 14.5 volts charging * 1/0.77 * 0.13 rate of charge = 558 Watt array "typical" cost effective maximum
    And there is sizing the array based on the amount of energy you use per day... Since you did not give a number (AH @ xx volts or Watt*Hours per day), I will give an answer based on used 25% of your bank's stored energy for two days (50% maximum planned discharge) as a good start:
    • 228 AH * 12 volt * 0.85 AC inverter eff * 1/2 day storage * 0.50 max discharge = 581 WH per day (25% discharge)
    And then based on were you live--Say Cleveland OH, facing south, fixed array:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Cleveland
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 48° angle from Vertical:
    (For best year-round performance)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    2.56
     
    3.16
     
    3.82
     
    4.61
     
    4.89
     
    5.24
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    5.39
     
    5.14
     
    4.88
     
    3.88
     
    2.50
     
    2.20
     

    Toss the bottom three months (assume genset/less power usage/closed down for winter):
    • 581 WH per day * 1/0.52 off grid AC system eff * 1/3.16 hours of sun (Feb) = 354 Watt array (break even February)
    So that gives you a rough range of solar panel array Wattage... Solar panels are relatively low cost these days... Batteries and generator fuel tends to be more expensive. So, a larger solar array could save you expenses (and noise/smoke) down the road and limit your generator needs.

    Then there is picking the right solar panels... You really need to pick a solar controller first. PWM controllers are cheap(er). 140 Watt solar panels are available in "12 volt" rating (really Vmp~17.5 to 18.0 volts or so) to directly charge a 12 volt panels. However, 12 volt solar panels tend to be more expensive per Watt (but may cost less to ship because they are smaller).

    Larter panels (>~200 Watts) are higher voltage (Vmp~30 volts or more). They can cost 1/2 the price of 12 volt panels per Watt (sometimes 1/2 the cost)--So you can install a 2x larger array at the same cost as a 12 volt array... However, you would need an MPPT type solar charge controller.. Which tend to be more expensive than PWM controllers.

    One other nice thing about MPPT controllers, you can run longer (smaller/cheaper) wiring from the array to the charge controller/battery shed. Smaller systems (say less than 400 Watt array) tend to be fine with PWM controllers. Larger systems (800 Watts or more) tend to be better/easier to design and install with MPPT controllers (cheaper panels + more excpensive MPPT controllers).

    Whatever you do--Make paper plans for your solar system first before you purchase any hardware. Trying to put together than building a Mix and Match system after parts have been purchased (before planning) can be more difficult and costly in the end.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Crystal said:
    How many solar panel watts are needed for two 114amphour flooded batteries in a 12 volt system?
    In general, you want to know your loads and build a system to run the loads.

    There is a basic idea of having a minimal charging capacity of 5% of your battery bank if you won't be cycling your system daily. and 10-13% of the battery bank capacity if you will be cycling your system daily.

    So you say you have 2-114 amp hour batteries. If I assume that that is 12 volt batteries, that would be 228ah battery bank at 12 volts.

    So if you would want 5% of that capacity for weekend use or  .05x228=11.4amps charging or about 23 amps charging if cycled daily.

    So now we have to look at solar panels, and charge controllers. A 100 watt solar panel puts out about 75 watts when it's hot during solar noon. This is the difference between the Standard Test conditions(STC) and Normal Operating Cell Temperatures (NOCT) values. The NOCT value will be about 75% of the STC value. Most of this loss will be in reduced voltage when the panel is warm/hot.

    Now Charge controllers. There are 2 basic types a less expensive PWM type which will require solar panels that are in a narrow voltage range to work efficently and MPPT charge controllers which use all the available power/wattage efficiently, but they use a little more power and require a voltage of at least 30% higher than the charging voltage.

    With PWM type charge controller, for 12 volt battery banks a VMP of 17.5-20 volts roughly(we call these 12 volt nominal panels). It's easy to figure this as you are looking at the current (amperage output under load) the IMP number and about 90% of that will pass through to the battery when charging, so a typical 100 watt (SOC)panel will output around 5 amps at 16-16.5volts, So for 5% you would be looking for roughly 2-120 watt, 12 volt nominal panels to produce 11.4 amps, double that for a 10% charge rate, so around 480 watts. 12 volt nominal panels top out at about 180 - 200 watts. With a PWM charge controller the panels will need to be connected in parallel so that the voltage stays the same and the amperage/current adds.

    With MPPT type charge controller, for 12 volt battery bank, you can work backwards from what you need. You need 11.4 amps charging and you will charge at roughly 14.8 volts (assuming Flooded lead acid batteries, FLA) so 11.4amps x 14.8 volts = 169 watts but that's at NOCT so you would divide that by .75 = 225 watts of solar array. If it falls in a range that the charge controller can use, you could use a single 225 watt panel. Again double that to 450 watts for for daily cycling. Again the MPPT is a bit more efficient, but it also allows you to use the often cheaper higher wattage panels.

    In addition, MPPT type charge controller can often save you money in setting up your system, If you intend daily cycling, you would need 4 120 watt panels for the PWM system, but if you have 2 or more panels, you should use a combiner box so if one panel has a short, the other panels won't over power it and possibly create a fire. So each panel would need a fuse or breaker. With a MPPT type system, you could use 2 panels in parallel without needing to use a combiner box. Which could be considerable savings about the same as the added expense of a MPPT type charge controller.

    Now after all that... If your load exceeds the ability of the solar panels ability to recharge the batteries, none of this will matter. The system will always run short and you will hit alarms and destroy batteries. So I encourage you to figure out your loads and build a system to work with your loads.

    If all that isn't enough, your environment will be a major factor to consider when building your system! If you live in the sunny southwest you may have nearly double the sun exposure than average parts of the US. Then again, if you live in Olympia Washington, you would average less than 1 1/2 hours of direct sun light a day Nov-Jan, and need a bigger solar array and more likely a generator.

    Things to consider!


    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    BTW- Lots of replies since I started my 'wordy' reply, but I always wanted to do a somewhat complete answer to this;
    Crystal said:
    Very basic question...
    I wish it was simple, but we have people who don't size systems very well, or buy poor or wrong equipment every day. So I'll refine my reply, and save it to post the next time someone asks.

    For the record, Bill is our 'Super' Super Moderator, and has access to your location. But none of use can see what you want to power with your system from here.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    I can use IPlocation.net to guess at a location... But that is probably only 65% accurate (cell phone posting is very inaccurate in general).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    While I was looking for 100 watt panels to see if I could find one that publishes NOCT values, I noticed that Grape 100 watt panels are available for $73, since they will allow you to pick them up at Home Depot, it would save you shipping.

    https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-100-Watt-Polycrystalline-Solar-Panel-for-RV-s-Boats-and-12-Volt-Systems-GS-Star-100W/204211365
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    The question may be simple however answering it would require some information, this being what will the discharge be, the frequency of discharge and  geographic location. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • 706jim
    706jim Solar Expert Posts: 515 ✭✭✭✭
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    300
    Island cottage solar system with 2500 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1.3kw facing southwest 170watt ancient Arco's facing south. All panels in parallel for a 24 volt system. Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 30th year.
  • Crystal
    Crystal Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
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    Wow thanks all for your reply! 
    Only needs to power a rv size dometic propane fridge (it requires power to ignite) and keep laptop/phone charged.
    Our lights are on a seperate system that is smaller yet.

    Perhaps even just one agm battery will do then will only need 100 watt panel? 
    We do have a backup genny if need be.

    Live very simply in a yurt cabin in midwest Minnesota. 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
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    It is really variable how much power your Dometic Propane refrigerator uses... Some (older?) models use mechanical switches for propane valve thermostat. Some use electronics. Others have door heater (anti-sweat heaters in doors), and some use AC or AC/DC to run (alternative to propane).

    You can get a simple Amp*Hour/Watt*Hour meter from Amazon/eBay and measure the usage:
    https://www.amazon.com/s?k=amp+hour+meter&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

    I was surprised, but using 20 AH per day for a propane fridge is not unusual--That is not insignificant. (20 AH per day * 12 volts = 240 WH per day).

    If that is true--Then my first post here would not be a bad system for your needs (assuming the solar system provides about 2x your daily "base load" requirement--Base loads are those that must run everyday and connon be "turned off" during bad weather--Such as refrigerators and basic lightning). So 2x 240 WH per day base load ~ 480 WH per day...

    When you add a laptop computer--Then you have even more unknown energy usage... An average power laptop may take 30 Watts when running. A low power laptop may take 8 Watts. And a gaming laptop may take 60 Watts. A cell phone may take another 2-5 Watts when running as a WiFi hotspot... All those are dependent on how many hours per day (2 hours * XX Watts, or 12 hour * XX Watts).

    Running a mid-power laptop 10 hours per day (work and some entertainment):
    • 30 Watts * 10 hours = 300 Watt*Hours per day
    • 2 Watt phone * 10 hours per day = 20 WH per day
    So, the use of a laptop can easily double your power consumption (or not--It all depends--Details matter).

    You can look at the solar estimation programs and figure out your hours of sun per day... The first one is simple/easy to use, but has limited cities for many states/locations. The second one, you can enter the zip code (USA) for anywhere and it will estimate your Hours of Sun per day for your location (you can even enter your address--But not sure that is much better). The second one is a bit more complicated and probably need to walk through once with you to set it for your location and needs (defaults to Grid Tied system, not off grid settings).

    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html
    https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

    I am not a big fan of multiple "small" solar power systems--Just more things to manage/repair. And you cannot easily move power from one system with "excess energy" to another system that may need more energy at that moment.

    But that is all up to you and your needs... Energy usage is a highly personal set of choices (and associated costs).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Crystal
    Crystal Solar Expert Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
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    Perhaps just one of these...
    https://www.onlinebatterysale.com/product/sagm-12-135/

    How many watts of solar is required for this 135amp hour 12 volt agm battery?

    Thanks again!
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Crystal said:
    Perhaps just one of these...
    https://www.onlinebatterysale.com/product/sagm-12-135/

    How many watts of solar is required for this 135amp hour 12 volt agm battery?

    Thanks again!
    I think you are missing the point everyone is making (other than mister 300) It depends on your energy use.
    Bill has suggested a way of measuring your energy use with the propane heater.

    Traditionally a Kil-A-Watt meter has been around for a while, There are also cheaper versions these days;
    P3 P4400 Kill A Watt Electricity Usage Monitor
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • 706jim
    706jim Solar Expert Posts: 515 ✭✭✭✭
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    Crystal said:
    Wow thanks all for your reply! 
    Only needs to power a rv size dometic propane fridge (it requires power to ignite) and keep laptop/phone charged.
    Our lights are on a seperate system that is smaller yet.

    Perhaps even just one agm battery will do then will only need 100 watt panel? 
    We do have a backup genny if need be.

    Live very simply in a yurt cabin in midwest Minnesota. 
    I put that number out for the same reason that others here have posted. If you only charged a cell phone you wouldn't even need that. You need to have an idea of what loads are going to be added to the system as well as some idea of how much sun you can expect. Solar is dismal in the winter for obvious reasons yet a small set of panels can run a lot IF you follow the rule: "You can only take out of the system what you put into it".

    But ya, 300 watts would probably do what you need at least in the summer.
    Island cottage solar system with 2500 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1.3kw facing southwest 170watt ancient Arco's facing south. All panels in parallel for a 24 volt system. Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 30th year.
  • mountainman
    mountainman Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭
    edited December 2020 #16
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    FWIW  my first system June-oct I used 4 100 watt panels and 2 6 volt 215 ah
    Golf cart batteries with a 30 amp pwm controller in a 35 rV
    20 led lights.
    Lp refrigerator
    Water pump 2 showers per day.
    Washed dishes.
    300 watt inverter for a 32" tv and 20" box fan. Phone charger and drill charger 
    2000 watt genny for a 10000 btu window ac  toaster  coffee maker.
    and a 45 amp Iota  to charge on cloudy days. 
    For more reserve not having to use genny to charge on cloudy days.
    I used 2 systems 400 on pwm aimed se
    And 2 190 panels on mppt. Aimed sw.
    And added 2 more batteries 
    The mppt system was cheaper and I could put the panels farther away in the best sun with smaller cheaper cables than pwm.
    More than enough power.
    Only used the generator for toaster coffee maker and
    air conditioning when needed.
    Before the 300 watt inverter 
    I only used around 300 whs per day.
    2 100 watt panels and not the best way a used car battery.

    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion