Grid costs

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mountainman
mountainman Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
Got my new bill today seems the price per kilowatt is going down.
How does my nc price compare to other states.?
2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
 6 230ah GC @36 volts 
18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Did you check your total charges?
    Line or service fees have been getting split off. lately, so the per kWh may be less for generation, but the 'line', 'service' or other charges may be going up.

    Locally our fees and per kWh went up last year;



    Notice our per kWh charges also go down with usage, typically the states regulate them to go up to encourage conservation.

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #3
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    What is your minimum monthly charge?

    It seems that one way the utilities are "getting out" of subsidizing GT Solar Power systems is to drop the per kWH rates and increase the monthly power minimum connection fee (was $5 per month in Northern California, they increased to $10 per month). I have heard of $48 or more connection fees.

    The other thing they did--Change "peak" and partial peak charges well into the evening (8 or 9pm)... No solar harvest at that time...

    They "guaranteed" our bills/rate plans would not change much for 10 years (grandfathering). After 10 years--Lots of changes.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mountainman
    mountainman Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭
    #4
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    The more you use the cheaper it gets. Looks like the poco is encouraging using more power.

    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
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  • mountainman
    mountainman Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭
    edited June 2020 #5
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    If I'm understanding it correctly according to whits rates.
     the bill would Be the same for 1000 kwh @1202 Or ~1350 kwh @ 879.
    30 miles inland nc brings triple digit temps  
     In July my bill usually increases to ~ 1000 kw.
    Maybe i should turn the ac down a couple degrees?
    If indeed thats how the rates are here?
    I could be more comfortable and save money.
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #6
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    Oh wow... You have demand charges... In California, that is usually only for larger commercial charges and can be something 1/2 of the electric charges. Basically, they are charging you for the generation and distribution peak energy usage.

    Besides conservation--You should really figure out the demand (reservation) charge and see how much it is costing you. Using an inverter based A/C system and avoiding heavy electrical appliances (water heating, electric stove, well pump, air compressors, etc.) that run for longer than 15 minutes (during peak time?) could save significantly on your bill.

    An inverter based A/C should be able to set to run at 1/2 power (or less) during your peak time. A non-inverter based system cycles on at 100% and off at 0%--Getting home in the peak period to a "hot home" and flipping on the A/C where it runs for more than 15 minutes at 100% power (as an example) could be seriously costly.

    A 1,000 kWH per month bill with A/C in a warm/hot climate does not sound bad (the average north American home usage is in the range of 500-1,000 kWH per month).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mountainman
    mountainman Registered Users Posts: 439 ✭✭
    edited June 2020 #7
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    I'm running non inverter ac 24-7.
    Im Not coming in to a hot home.
    Electric stove and water heater.
    Air compressor from 8-5 mon - Friday. 
    No well pump. 
    January with resistive heat ive used 4000 kwh Ouch.
    2kw array 6 345 q cells  make sky blue 60 cc
     6 230ah GC @36 volts 
    18 amp accusense charger. 3650 champion 
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #8
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    I don't know what your demand charges are... Be interesting to see how much they "add" to your bill.

    And how much a heat pump system could save over resistive heating... The newer systems are getting pretty darn efficient even in cold weather.

    Check a few heat pump systems and how efficient they are in cold conditions... The typical ones can be good to freezing or a bit below. But there were some that worked well below freezing (I can't find my post from one vendor with the numbers)...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2020 #9
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    We are about $0.098 including everything. No demand, no TOU, no tiers - just a flat rate. I had choices, so I locked it in for 5 years.
    Yes, I use a lot of energy. Our home is 2,500 sq ft, (1979 construction) all-electric including two refrigerators and two chest freezers, electric double oven and stove, resistance heat, electric water heater, central A/C, and a 1.5 KW irrigation pump.


    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Marc Kurth said:
    We are about $0.098 including everything.


    So Net metering would only be for the 5.6519/kWh?

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    edited June 2020 #11
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    It depends... In California, so far, my net metering has been energy+delivery charges. Not just energy charges.

    However, for commercial "reservation charges" (the part of some commercial bills where the 15 minute peak usage per month is responsible for (very roughly) about 1/2 of the bill--The reservation charge was not only based on the Wattage of the peak period used, it was also based on the peak energy GENERATED. So if if the business/school/etc. had a large solar array (solar being something like 4-6x the daily average load (i.e., 6 hours of sun to provide 24 hours worth of energy usage), the energy bill could increase over the previous non-solar power bill.

    I don't know if/how California "fixed" this or not--But it was a big surprise a decade or two ago when schools started installing GT Solar. However, separating energy from delivery charges can be a very nice way of "addressing" GT Solar from the utility's point of view (i.e., how to reduce the "costs" and subsidies of GT Solar).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,823 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    With the war on coal (cheap energy) and the warm fuzzies about solar (very expensive energy) - the long term trend is no doubt to go up quite significantly.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #13
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    PG&E (northern California) E-6 time of use rate plan (grandfathered for GT Solar customers, TOU plans are required for GT solar--I think):
    https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf

    ate schedule titled Billing. TOTAL RATES Total Energy Rates $ per kWh)

    PEAK PART-PEAK OFF-PEAK

    Summer Baseline Usage $0.40489 (I) $0.28645 (I) $0.21122 (I)
    Over 100% of Baseline $0.49122 (I) $0.37278 (I) $0.29755 (I)

    Winter Baseline Usage – $0.23239 (I) $0.21556 (I) Over 100% of Baseline – $0.31872 (I) $0.30189 (I)
     
    Total Meter Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.25298
    Delivery Minimum Bill Amount ($ per meter per day) $0.32854
    California Climate Credit (per household, per semi-annual payment occurring in the April and October bill cycles)  ($35.73)

    Have not looked for a while... Summer peak for my area over baseline usage (more than a ~300 kWH per month summer) is $0.49 per kWH...

    Time of Use:

    TIME PERIODS: Times of the year and times of the day are defined as follows:
    Summer (service from May 1 through October 31): Peak: 1:00 p.m. to 7:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
    Partial-Peak: 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. AND 7:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. Monday through Friday Plus 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Saturday and Sunday
    Off-Peak: All other times including Holidays.
    Winter (service from November 1 through April 30):
    Partial-Peak: 5:00 p.m. to 8:00 p.m. Monday through Friday
    Off-Peak: All other times including Holidays.

    Imagine if your trip to the gas station had such complex billing... Ugh.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,823 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    What about energy from thorium? We have successfully done that in the past. Though it is harder to melt cities with thorium.

    If we are serious about space exploration we need to get back on board with nuclear/thorium energy. Possible that military applications were the primary onus of what space exploration has been conducted?

    Even with the accidents (all to old reactors) nuclear is still historically safe and clean I think. People freak out about viruses and nuclear.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    BB. said:
    It depends... In California, so far, my net metering has been energy+delivery charges. Not just energy charges.
    I asked because my brother in Cincinnati, it only returns the 'energy' portion. 
    Here's their sample bill;
     
    Brother says he current has a fixed $39 charge, AND is only reimbursed 5.83 cents per kWh.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #16
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    Comparing Nuclear vs Coal (and other sources) for radiation exposure:

    https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/1018/do-coal-plants-release-more-radiation-than-nuclear-power-plants

    Not a bad set of discussions.

    GT Solar / Green Energy seems to be slowly losing its supporters. All of the changes seem to be slanted to "devaluing" GT Solar's ability to offset your basic electrical bill.

    Here is a "Flat Rate" residential plan (E-1):

    https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf
    • Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)
    • Baseline Usage $0.24373
    • 101% - 400% of Baseline $0.30672
    • High Usage Over 400% of Baseline $0.38340 (R)
    • Delivery Minimum Bill Amount ($ per meter per day) $0.32854
    • California Climate Credit (per household, per semi-annual payment occurring in the April and October bill cycles)  ($35.73)
    Charge a bunch of money, and "give back" $35.73 every six months...
    • UNBUNDLING OF TOTAL RATES Energy Rates by Component ($ per kWh) 
    • Generation: $0.11752
    • Distribution**: $0.09671
    • Conservation Incentive Adjustment: Baseline Usage ($0.03542)
    • 101% - 400% of Baseline $0.02757
    • High Usage Over 400% of Baseline $0.10425 (R)
    • Transmission* (all usage) $0.03595
    • Transmission Rate Adjustments* (all usage) $0.00314 
    • Reliability Services* (all usage) ($0.00066)
    • Public Purpose Programs (all usage) $0.01296
    • Nuclear Decommissioning (all usage) $0.00101
    • Competition Transition Charges (all usage) $0.00096
    • Energy Cost Recovery Amount (all usage) $0.00005
    • DWR Bond (all usage) $0.00580
    • New System Generation Charge (all usage)** $0.00571
    "Give" $0.03542 per kWH to "base line users" (~300 kWH per month for electric and natural gas users, in non-A/C climates--Lots of variables). And "take" $0.03 to $0.104 per kWH from those "high energy users"...

    Using the power bill to push public policies... $0.13 per kWH "spread" in cost of California electric rates for political reasons. Or more than PG&E pays to build and maintain their distribution infrastructure. Even more than actually spent on buying the power from power plants.

    Wonder why "the company" did not pay attention to distribution system maintenance and ended up killing ~84 California citizens in just one November 2018 wildfire?

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pg-e-pleads-guilty-to-85-counts-in-2018-camp-fire/ar-BB15D8ca

    The emotional statements gave voice to victims one day after California utility Pacific Gas and Electric Company pleaded guilty Tuesday to 84 counts of involuntary manslaughter and one count of unlawfully starting the Camp Fire, the deadliest blaze in the state's history.

    ...

    The company will be fined "no more than $3,486,950," according to court documents filed in March. It must also reimburse the Butte County District Attorney's Office $500,000 for the costs of its investigation into the blaze.

    Among other provisions, PG&E must establish a trust, compensating victims of the 2018 Camp Fire and other wildfires to the tune of $13.5 billion, according to the plea agreement included in a regulatory filing.

    It has to pay hundreds of millions to the town of Paradise and Butte County and cooperate with prosecutors' investigation, the plea deal says. Survivors spoke Wednesday as part of presentence proceedings.

    ...

    "Imagine what would happen if an ordinary citizen killed 80 people ... I don't believe justice is served by a $3 million dollar fine. That is less than what Mr. Johnson makes in a year," said Joseph Downer, referring to utility CEO and President Bill Johnson, who will retire at the end of June.

    "Mr. Johnson flew here on a private jet and yet PG&E cannot pay $13 for a new C-hook," Downer said, referring to the metal device in a utility tower that failed and caused an insulator assembly to fall and start the fire in dry vegetation.

    And the old bankruptcy 'out':
    The power company filed for bankruptcy in January 2019 as it came under pressure from billions of dollars in claims tied to deadly wildfires.
    Sort of like happened to Boeing and the 737-Max (stupid single point of failure design, avoiding crew training costs on "new plane" and possible Angle of Attack sensor failure, etc.)... Paying attention to the cash flow (and moving the headquarters), while letting the engineering side slowly wither.

    https://www.engineeringforhumans.com/systems-engineering/737-max-a-failure-of-systems-engineering/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
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    As I understand it, Texas does not mandate Net Metering. Our energy market is deregulated, so you negotiate net metering deals with individual providers. When I moved here from California, I was surprised at the ability to negotiate with 10+ providers. There was a very wide range of plans available from "night and weekends free" to variable rates pegged to the spot market - each with strengths and weaknesses.
    As you can see above, I selected a conventional plan with a 5-year lock.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Want to see a real complicated one! LOL


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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #19
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    When I first signed up for GT Solar with PG&E some ~15 years ago, I would get an 11 page 8.5" x 11" bill monthly with all of the details... Got that for several years before they simplified down to a small form factor with ~2 pages of info (including history over the last, up to, 12 months.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #20
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    Good grief! That's enough to make me go off grid!

    ...oh wait, I am off grid!  :D
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Photowhit said:
    Good grief! That's enough to make me go off grid!

    ...oh wait, I am off grid!  :D
    LOL the only thing good about it is no on peak generation cost, no service delivery costs and 1870 kWh in the bank for the AC use the rest of the summer. The service delivery will kick back in when my total watts to and from the grid reach break even, usually happens in July or August with it flipping back the other way in late fall.
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