Xantrex c60

Josef211
Josef211 Registered Users Posts: 3
I have a xantrex inverter charger dr3624 and a c60 charge controller. The battery bank is 6 rows of 6v golf cart batteries that is 4 wide wired in series parallel. Yhe solar paneles are damaged/missing and need to be replaced. I'm worried about sizing of the new solar panels to match the system that I have. Any help would be appreciated. The pic is of the old batteries I have new ones that I will replace this weekend.

Comments

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wow - those batteries look pretty sad
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Welcome to the forum Josef,

    I/We like to suggest that you understand/define your loads, then that defines your battery bank, and the solar array is sized by where it will be installed (nearest major city), how you you will use it (summer weekends, full time off grid), and the size of your battery bank.

    An alternative, is to define "something"--Such as the battery bank AH and Voltage, then design the solar array to support the battery bank, and finally define the output of the system (Watt*Hours per day, by season)....

    Very likely, about the only thing you could salvage/reuse is the 3.6 kWatt @ 24 VDC (?) input inverter... And even that at 21 years of age--Is possible not worth trying to get running (if it is not working). Most electronics/inverters/charge controllers have around a 10+ year service life, and past ~5 years of end of manufacturing, it becomes very difficult to find parts/boards and somebody that can service them.

    I would suggest not even buying any batteries just yet... Take a few days here and figure out the design of your new system. The battery bank is the heart of your off grid power system--Defining your loads first, drives the battery bank sizing (AH and Voltage).

    You will probably need to do several paper designs first--To see which give you your best price/performance.

    Also, look at your loads... In the last twenty years, there has been a lot of improvement in both AC and DC appliances. It is much cheaper to conserve power than to generate it...

    The existing battery bank (4x 6 volt @ 200 AH golf cart batteries times 6 parallel strings = 24 volt @ 1,200 AH) is something that I would suggest would be better served with a 48 volt battery bank--And solar charge controller, AC inverter, etc... Unless you have a need for 24 VDC loads/appliances.

    In the "olden days", people tended to oversize the battery bank and under size the solar array (batteries were "cheap" and solar panels were "expensive). These days, sizing the battery bank for the loads, and having a good sized solar array is generally the way to go (batteries are expensive, solar panels are cheap these days).

    And then there is the question of generator support... If your system is in a relatively sunny location (US South West typically, or similar), with enough solar array, you may be able to avoid a genset. If you have dark winters (deep valley, trees, etc.), gensets are a necessary evil for winter living.

    The type of batteries are getting wider too... Flooded Cell Lead Acid are still the cheapest and pretty forgiving. AGM lead acid are cleaner and less maintenance needed (although, probably a little less cycle life). Then there are LiFePO4 (lithium Iron Phosphate) and other types... LiFePO4 are not cheap, and need some additional hardware (BMS--Battery Management System) and care--But can have some advantages.

    If this is your first pass for off grid solar, FLA batteries are great for learning on. Relatively easy to maintain, and understand their management. And don't kill your bank account if you "murder" the first set or two (it happens).

    Your thoughts and needs?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you haven't already purchased the batteries, you might stop now and see if you might find a better situation than 6 strings of 4 batteries. Just imagine having to check them each for electrolyte levels each month!

    Might be able to use less depending on your loads. These 24 batteries represent about 30 kWhs of storage. Multiple strings tend to work find for 2-3 years then as the age you will notice that because they haven't shared charging and discharging properly some strings will have limited capacity. Better to use fewer and higher capacity batteries if you need that much capacity. 


    Looks like a system you bought, but haven't used. May be the original turn of the century setup. If the current panels have been stolen, understand needing to replace them, if they are there and cracked, yes replace, but if they are just dirty they are likely find and just need to be cleaned up.

    I don't see the C60 charge controller, they are dated, but still being made. tend to be reliable PWM type charge controller. To continue using it you would want to buy 24 volt nominal panels and use them in parallel. Likely your current system has 80-120 watt, 12 volt nominal panels used in strings of 2. You may or may not have a combiner box were they were all brought together. Today we would use a fuse or breaker for each string. Today you could replace each string of 2 - 12 volt nominal panels with a single higher voltage panel that is 24 volt nominal. 

    24 volt nominal panels have a VMP rating of 35-40 volts, they will have 72 cells (typically) and a voltage range of 250-350 volts. You can likely use 1800-2000 watts of panels with the C60 charge controller.

    The DR3624 I believe is a high quality Modified sine wave inverter. Might not be the best for sensitive electronic, some motors might run hotter and have a shorter life. I think its a multi step modified sine inverter so it won't be as bad a a 'square wave' Modified sine inverter. I might be off base, but going from my feeble memory. You should be able to find a manual on line.

    In general, you should look at your intended loads, even maxing out the charge controller, you would have 60 amps max charging capacity. For daily use we would recommend this size charging capacity to service about a 600 amp hour 24 volt battery bank. Each string of 4 GC (golf cart) batteries is around 215 amps so 6 strings is 1290 amp hours or twice the max size I would recommend. Perhaps okay if you would only be using the property on weekends, but not for daily cycling.

    I would take a look at your loads, what you intend to run before recommissioning this system.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Josef211
    Josef211 Registered Users Posts: 3
    The system is working somewhat. Due to the damaged and missing panels the previous owner was charging with a generator. As far as load the ranch has been wired for lighting. It has a washer and dryer(gas) and a swamp cooler.i may put in a tv and use a radio. The well pump is ran off a generator but at some point I'm going to put in a solar well pump(separate from this solar system). I only use the property on weekends and will be wising it more during hunting season. Im in southern AZ so mostly sunny days. I would lile to just get this working better to work for a couple of years until I buy a new system. I have a source to get battries for 90$ each and plan on reusing the batteries on something else if I decide to upgrade to a better battery at that time.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would check to see that the panels are wired 2 in series, and then paralleled. If panels were broken and just bypassed, the added low voltage will not contribute to charging. The numbers on right are your 'under load' numbers, the voltage and amperage on left are 'open circuit numbers'. Voltage at 16.9 might be a little low if there is a long distance to the charge controller.

    Looks like the desert southwest, long days would help with the charging deficit, but I wouldn't use more than 3 strings of 4 batteries. I'd lose the 'wire nuts', run clean wire, be sure the panels are wired strings of 2 in series and 4 strings of 2 in parallel. Figure out your voltage drop and shoot for no more than 3% from the array to the charge controller. 
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You have 8 - 120 watt panels for an array of 960 watts, you might be able to move the panels and squeeze 2 large modern panels on the same mount. Does the tracking still work?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Josef211
    Josef211 Registered Users Posts: 3
    The tracking is not working right now. I need to re weld the shock mount because it was broken off.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Setting up a smaller battery based system for "quiet time", and use the genset when you need a lot of power would probably be pretty cost effective. A small 4x golf cart batteries and small AC inverter for lights, radio, laptop computer, and RV type water pump for inside plumbing... Use genset for washer/dryer/water pumping to cistern/irrigation.

    The large battery bank and small solar array--Not doing much for you unless you have an "oversized" genset that can supply lots of charging current to the battery bank (and active loads), and use the small solar array to float the battery bank...

    A large solar power system and battery bank for a weekend cabin is hard to justify... The battery bank will only last 3-5 years (hot climate, golf cart batteries)--Whether you use them or not. Large array, battery bank, electronics may be subject to theft and damage too.

    Just to give you some ideas:

    1,000 WH (1 kWH) system per day:
    • 1,000 WH * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/12 volt battery bank * 2 days storage * 1/0.50 max discharge for battery life = 392 AH @ 12 volts
    • 2x 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries times 2 parallel strings for 12 volt @ 400 AH battery bank (4x golf cart batteries total)
    And for a full size off grid very energy conservation home... Add refrigerator, well pump (solar friendly), and washing machine:
    • 3,300 WH per day * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/24 volt battery bank * 2 days storage * 1/0.50 max discharge = 647 AH @ 24 volt battery bank
    • 4x 6 volt batteries in series times 3 parallel strings of 200 AH GC batteries = 24 volt @ 600 AH battery bank (12x GC batteries)
    A 10% rate of charge battery bank (10-13% minimum suggested for full time off grid):
    • 400 AH * 14.5 volts * 1/0.77 panel+controller eff * 0.10 rate of charge = 752 Watt array nominal (small system)
    • 600 AH * 29.0 volts * 1/0.77 panel+controller eff * 0.10 rate of charge = 2,260 Watt array nominal (mid-size system)
    Using Tucson AZ for solar, fixed array, the nominal generation would be:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Tucson
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 58° angle from vertical:
    (For best year-round performance)

    JanFebMarAprMayJun
    4.95
     
    5.63
     
    6.61
     
    7.07
     
    6.91
     
    6.56
     
    JulAugSepOctNovDec
    5.77
     
    5.66
     
    6.09
     
    5.84
     
    5.30
     
    4.76
     

    Using 4.76 hours of sun (December, long term average) would give you:
    • 752 Watt array * 0.52 average system eff * 4.76 hours of sun per day (Dec) = 1,861 WH per day
    • 2,260 Watt array * 0.52 average eff * 4.76 hours of sun (Dec) = 5,594 WH per day
    Note, you should plan on your base loads using only about 50-65% of the above predicted energy harvest (above is December) for your daily "required loads". Run optional loads (like clothes washer, irrigation pumping, etc. on sunny days).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,039 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's a better label.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.