IBM's new battery, we hope!

Dave Angelini
Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
in Energy Use & Conservation #1
Just down the road from you Bill. We did live next to Almaden valley in south San Jose where this IBM R & D  site is. Would be really great for electric flight also with the power density. Crossing fingers!

https://www.dezeen.com/2020/01/06/ibm-research-sustainable-battery-sea-water/
"we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
   htps://offgridsolar1.com/
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Didn't the last salt water battery fold up after selling to consumers for a year ??
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Maybe second mouse gets the cheese?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    The last salt bat was not lithium extracted from seawater. IBM really needs a winner as it has been hurting. I am hoping this will turn it around but, yea I have seen this movie before.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    I have been on the bleeding edge of technology too many times. I will get excited when I see it fully operational and in producton.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Or for sale here in the store or at my supplier :) 
     When you think of how they mine the lithium now out of the Congo, with guys breathing the dust, it could be an improvement just for that. Let alone an electrolyte that can go from 0 Soc to 80 in 5 minutes.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    How fast from 80% to zero?  That would be the clincher.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    IBM was THE blue chip of the blue chips in the 1980's. Been quiet for a long time. The market changed when they could no longer sell $10 of RAM for $4000? 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Dave Angelini said:
    ................................................................. Let alone an electrolyte that can go from 0 Soc to 80 in 5 minutes.
    And 0% Soc to 80% Soc in 9.5 minutes with an AGM isn't too shabby either. Concorde runs 3C to 5C regularly on all but the L16's because the terminals cannot handle 2000 amps, so they are limited to 3C. 
    We have not seen any appreciable degradation in cycle life performance with these extreme charge rates - except when the battery bank reaches 130F or higher. Concorde's own extensive test data shows the same. Random sample testing at 5C is done regularly.
    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    That is cool Marc but something has to be done for all of the cars, drill batteries, and ? .
    Current lithium is not sustainable and I doubt AGM will ever fill its niche weight wise.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Dave, yes, of course! Lead-acid designs are clearly not the right answer for many applications, including PV system storage.
    Lead-acid works reasonably well for off grid systems - only when the system design provides the means to reach 100% SOC before sulfation rears its ugly head. I see a LOT of PV systems that run a deficit charge for long periods of time. Lithium handles that part of the equation quite well.
    Marc


    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Marc, yes none of this matters as long as your state keeps sending my costco your Paramount citrus red grapefruit.
    Nice picture on the 8 pound bag of 1940's flatbed 1 ton truck with a lone star on the door. Best reason to get up early that I know. :)

    What is a Paramount Citrus?
    Paramount Citrus is already the largest vertically integrated grower, packer and shipper of fresh. citrus – including mandarins, navel oranges, Valencia oranges, lemons, limes and Texas red grapefruit.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
    mike95490 said:
    Didn't the last salt water battery fold up after selling to consumers for a year ??
    Yep.  I think you're talking about Aquion.  Supposedly a few people got working batteries, but they eventually folded.
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    bill von novak said:
    mike95490 said:
    Didn't the last salt water battery fold up after selling to consumers for a year ??
    Yep.  I think you're talking about Aquion.  Supposedly a few people got working batteries, but they eventually folded.

    I tried to get solid information from them early on, but they couldn't answer basic stuff. I gave it another 6 months then tried again and was met with sales fluff about the genius of their founder. I walked away from the smoke and mirrors.
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Not sure if many of you read my initial link here in post 1.
    https://www.dezeen.com/2020/01/06/ibm-research-sustainable-battery-sea-water/

    It is about a patent that IBM has to extract lithium from salt water.

    Aquion that failed is,
    The Aquion battery is composed of a saltwater electrolyte, manganese oxide cathode, carbon titanium phosphate composite anode, and synthetic cotton separator.

    It had a major downside of expensive metals and could not keep up with lithium pricewise. It is as expensive to recycle as is Lithium with all the metals.

    The IBM pipedream in the link will solve many problems, if it can be done reasonably.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
    All of the elements can be found in seawater. That even includes gold. Probably plenty of lithium in seawater, I think it is a fairly common mineral. 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium#cite_note-kamienski-18      For some reason unable to copy and paste the seawater specific data. Appears that electrolysis is used to isolate the lithium ions. 

    They may enjoy some government backing. Big Bother always being eager for more weapons grade minerals. The first nuclear reaction (1932) used lithium among other refined minerals and technologies. Come to think of it, our largest industry - pharma - would also like lithium. It can be refined into a lot of medical uses. 

    Combine storage technology, pharma, and defense? Unlimited funding. Sweet technology. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Sure lot's good eating also from Seawater. Remember though, big fish eat at night :*

     The point here is that Lithium is almost entirely mined  (on land) in the the Congo and it is nasty business done by alot of very poor people that may be easy to take advantage of. It also is a pain in the ass and expensive to properly recycle. Not even going into the good parts of the IBM claim and research as it early.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020 #18
    Dave Angelini said:
    Sure lot's good eating also from Seawater. Remember though, big fish eat at night :*

     The point here is that Lithium is almost entirely mined  (on land) in the the Congo and it is nasty business done by alot of very poor people that may be easy to take advantage of. It also is a pain in the ass and expensive to properly recycle. Not even going into the good parts of the IBM claim and research as it early.
    It is interesting though not surprising that the "greenies" care not about the horrific consequences of Congo cobalt mining. 

    Going out on a limb and thinking perhaps lithium based energy could be used for rockets so fast they could catch up to ICBN's and detonate them prior to descent. 

    Lithium electrolysis mining is likely very expensive unless conducted on a huge scale. If they can extract lithium then why not gold? I remember getting some whos excited when I casually mentioned that seawater has gold. 

    Going to guess that consumer based results are years away. Also - I am prone to "excessive" theorizing. Got a question? May have a theory for dat. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020 #19
    Dave, I will have to check out those Grapefruit! The two Costco's nearest me are over an hour away, so we go less often but really bulk up.
    There is good eating in freshwater too! Saltwater fish are the best, but I am far from the sea now. I found out that my backyard is full of Bass and Crappie. Any time I drop a hook into the water, these guys grab it. The 14" to 16" are easy, the big guys take time, effort and skill that I lack! This one from last week was short of 3 lbs., caught on the first cast from my lawn.


    Unfortunately for playtime, business volume turned on a like someone flipped a switch in January - which is unusual. We are on a record pace in all of our market segments (PV, Marine, RV, Industrial, and Govt.) all are on fire. Exports to Africa, South America, and the Middle East are also up. Last year we sold around 2,600 AGMs. At our current pace, we would blow past that - but I am betting that it will slow down. It has to.
    Interestingly, since January 1st, we have received three orders for batteries to replace those that we sold in 2009 and 2010.
    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #20
    I am thinking grapefruits at breakfast and lake fish tacos with a few beers for lunch. That Top song about muddy water turning to wine playing on the big speaks. Nice thoughts for a Friday!  Get the Lead out and take a break. We are in the 60's but only river fish here.

    I have tried to recycle 2 big LG lithiums and one cost me $300 and I really am not sure what they did with it. Recycling in general is a disaster here in the land of the greenies. You can blame China but really it is the people behind the mirror here in Fornia. The company Waste Management has these "dumps" in the middle of nowhere where alot of it goes and just sits there.

    The early failures with lithium I saw were related to  high charge or discharge currents on master slave XW's. That is why I am hopeful for the IBM  r&d. Their high currents ( AGM like) seem more long lasting. Dirty little secrets about lithium failures in home batteries are out there. I have some test results from my buds is Australia, it is not good BTW.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    edited February 2020 #21
    Lithium is not "mined" in Africa:
    From brine harvesting, a lot from South America (currently).
    Generally, it is the Cobalt in some lithium chemistries that is the result of less than ethical mining practices in the Congo.
    The LiFePO4 type cells typically used for of grid power systems,  do not use Cobalt...
    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020 #22
    Alright good catch. The greenies have stiffies that can cut diamonds about Tesla's electric cars and the end of gas/diesel engines plus the oil and coal industries. Tesla does use cobalt and a lot of it I think. Musk himself says the batteries should not be called lithium. They are aluminum, cobalt, lithium and carbon. Foggy memory but I'd bet the other electric cars also use cobalt.

    Cobalt is used in the higher performance lithium batteries. It is quite expensive. 

    Though Zimbabwe is a big lithium player and Namibia is ~#8 (don't know where that is?). 

    I'd do the research but I'm arguing other important stuff at the moment. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020 #23
    NMC lithium is probably the most used in cars. More power per pound. All of LG's are this way and they are the biggest player in the market.. LFP is not easy to recycle either.

    I used the wrong word in a previous and meant Cobalt that is used in many NMC lithium car batteries and by hobbyist. Dangerous to recycle unless you just store it somewhere out of harm's way. It can cause a deadly gas if burned.


    What is more important softdown? Are you getting gold out of those mountains? Come-on tell us.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Couple tons so far. But its so much work. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #25
    Still nothing new since last month on this battery but this is where it will come from.

     IBM labs south of San Jose in the Almaden Valley of California.

    https://www.ibm.com/blogs/research/2019/12/heavy-metal-free-battery/
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2020 #26
    Being "free of heavy metals" makes me wonder if they are appealing to hearts instead of having a sound economic model. May work today, Tesla's stock value is more than Ford. Which doesn't make a gram of economic sense. Tesla needs government aid to stay in business. 

    https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/03/investing/tesla-ford-market-value-gm/index.html
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #27
    well is is worse than that now as of Jan 9/2020 
     

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    It might be ~ the value of Ford and Toyota combined. Insanity prevails considering that Tesla has never made a profit, depends on government aid, to my knowledge and seems to depend too much on Elon Musk.

    All five of our richest companies are de facto Ingsoc surveillance contractors along with another sideline. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • bill von novak
    bill von novak Solar Expert Posts: 891 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    softdown said:
    Alright good catch. The greenies have stiffies that can cut diamonds about Tesla's electric cars and the end of gas/diesel engines plus the oil and coal industries. Tesla does use cobalt and a lot of it I think. 
    4.5kg per car.  Compare to 9kg of lead in a typical (non-EV) starter battery.  And that's going to go down - they are at 8:1:1 formulations right now, and Jeff Dahn now has some zero cobalt formulations he's working for Tesla.  Most likely, though, is a further reduction (not elimination) of cobalt as they trade life against cost.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,891 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #30
    The lead can be easily recycled and one is paid for that. I just recycled a 10 kwh NMC battery and it cost me $300. I also had no way to find out what happened to this battery after it was dropped off. I was told I would be contacted a month ago.....

     Recyclable and safe is one of the main points of this IBM R&D in this thread, we hope.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
    Cost you?  I took my Surrette's to the recyclers and got 30cents per pound for them.  2600 pounds.
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