230w 29.8v (vmp) solar panel for 48v battery bank

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luqman
luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
Hi, I am new to solar panels, I am currently looking at a 230w, 29.8v(vmp), I would like to know if this panel is a 12v or 24v panel and could I string some together to charge my 48v system, I am using a 5000w 48v mppt inverter

Thanks

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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019 #2
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    @luqman
    Welcome to the forum. This is a 20V nominal panel. It will work well if connected in strings of 3 panels in series on a MPPT charge controller. PV voltage will be about 89V.

    Rick
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Raja, I am planning on getting 15 panels, with a combiner box with 6 solar inputs, so what you are suggesting is I connect 3 series making 5 strings right, then I can input them into the combiner box and then connect to my inverter 
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Check the max string voltage on the controller/inverter.  If it's 150v or more, 5 strings of 3 should work.  Some are lower though, so if (eg) 100v max, 3 is too many.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    You want this for a 48 volt nominal battery bank?

    If so, then you need Vmp~72 volts (array) with a PWM solar charger (PWM being the "less expensive" type).

    And for an MPPT type charger, they do spec. pretty much Vmp-array ~72 volts minimum, you really want Vmp-array>80 volts to get the "MPPT" advantages (taking high voltage/lower current to lower voltage/higher current for the battery bank). With Vmp-array~72 volts (standard test conditions), an MPPT controller really acts more like a PWM (cheaper) controller.

    The other issue is the Vpanel-input-max voltage for the charge controller... This is very solar charge controller specific, and also depends on your climate (how cold in winter) it gets... For very cold regions, a Vpanel-max of ~150 Volts, the array Vmp-array-std voltage should not be much above ~100 Volts or so (very cold, is freezing and well below freezing).

    You need to check the specifications of your controller, panels, temperature range, etc. and see what will work. Some companies, like Midnite, have a web based calculator to help you make these decisions:

    http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php

    And even the sizing tool(s) for Midnite, and different depending on which product family you are using.

    Your panels are neither 12 volt or 24 volt panels... A 12 volt panel is (typically around) Vmp~17.5-19.5 volts. A 24 volt panel is Vmp~35-39 volts.

    Your panel is Vmp~30 volts or a "60 cell" panel that is typically used for Grid Tied power systems, and can be used with MPPT type solar charger/battery based systems.

    When everything is taken into account, a Vmp~30 volt * 3 panels or Vmp-array~90 volts is fine with many MPPT controllers (details matter), but "inefficient" with PWM controllers on a 48 volt battery bank (can work, just will lose around 20% of the energy from the solar panels (again, need to check the PWM controllers specs to make sure input voltage, Voc-cold is OK).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Estragon

    Thank you, where can I find that information, I have attached a picture, please kindly have a look and let me know 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Can you post a link to the inverter/charger you want to use?

    Guessing you might be around Milan Italy?

    https://weather-and-climate.com/average-monthly-min-max-Temperature-fahrenheit,milan-lombardy-it,Italy

    The marketing specifications are not really accurate for statement #2... It should be Vmp-hot>maximum battery charging voltage (not Voc).

    Your batteries probably charge around 58 volts or so (nominal) and 60-62 volts when Equalize charging.

    Vmp falls when panels get hot... Very hot panels (full sun, no wind, hot weather), your 90 volt Vmp-array-std can get down towards 74 volts or so... That gives you ~14 volts between 60 volts battery charging and 74 volt Vmp-array-hot (allows for wiring voltage drop, MPPT charge controller drop, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
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    luqman said:
    @Raja, I am planning on getting 15 panels, with a combiner box with 6 solar inputs, so what you are suggesting is I connect 3 series making 5 strings right, then I can input them into the combiner box and then connect to my inverter 
    Yes, the panel configuration is 5 strings of 3 in series. The 5 positive wires from panels connect to 5 15 amp DC breakers in the combiner box. The combined PV wire connects to a PV breaker and then the breaker to the charge controller. What is the make and model of the charge controller?
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    It looks from the pic that max Voc is 145v.  With Voc of 37v (at room temp) in a string of 3, that's 111v.  Voc increases in colder temps, but unless you're in a really cold climate, you should be well under that.

    My panels are roughly the same spec, and in strings of 3, max Voc in ~ -30°C weather is ~120v.

    In strings of 2, Vmp in hot weather can be low 60s.  That's fine for my 12v bank, but too low for my 48v.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    Maximum pv array open circuit is 145vdc for the inverter input,
    Just wondering since I have 16 panels at 230w each, maximum power voltage 7.72amps each panel.
    If i connect 8 panels in parallel x2 and then string them in series giving me a total maximum power circuit of 61.76amps which should be ok since my inverter maximum power circuit is 80A.
    My maximum power voltage is 29.8.
    2x 29.8 for 2 strings = 59.6VDC.

    Would all that be ok for my 48V system?



  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Where are you located?  If the batteries get cool/cold, I think strings of 2 may be too low voltage. 

    My 48v bank absorbs at 58.8v (at 25°C), which doesn't leave much room to buck from 59.6.  The bank is generally much cooler though, with temp compensated charging voltage into the low 60s most of the year.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Another issue is voltage drop from the array to controller.  Mpp may be 29.8 at the array, but there will be at least some drop (depending on wire size and length).  If it's (eg) 2% or 1v drop, thats 58.6 into the controller, not enough for a 58.8v absorb.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    luqman said:
    If i connect 8 panels in parallel x2 and then string them in series giving me a total maximum power circuit of 
    It might be a language thing, but I think  you  are using parallel and series backwards.
    Image result for solar panel parallel vs series
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Estragon, i am going give you all the specifications and if you could please work out everything for me?

  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Estragon

    48V system 
    16 panels - Each 230w, Vmp-29.8v , Imp - 7.72A , Voc - 37.0v

    INVERTER - 
    Maximum PV Array Open Circuit Voltage145 VDC
    Maxmum Solar Charge Current
    80A






  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Where are you located?  Is Bill's guess of Milan about right? 

    Are the batteries in a place where they get to ambient temps, or in conditioned space?

    How far is the pv array from the controller?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Estragon, i am london, but the solar panels are for ghana west africa, the batteries i am using are forklift batteries 48v, 840AH.
    the PV will be about 10-15 feet from the controller 
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    In Ghana, the bank will likely always be near or above 25°C, so temp compensated absorb voltage might be 59v or below.  This should be confirmed with the battery supplier though.  Some recommend higher, especially for solar applications with constrained absorb time.

    Although required temp compensated battery charging voltage is kept down in the warm climate, the Vmp voltage of the panels also will be lower.  Assuming roof mounting and 40°C ambient, maybe 75-25=50° above STC x -0.45% = 22.5% lower. 29.8 x (1-.225) = ~23v.  In strings of 2 (~46v-ish), not nearly enough.  Other mounting methods (eg pole mount) might lower assumed panel temp a bit, but not by enough for consistent proper charging.

    Strings of 3 would be ~66Vmp (hot), enough for proper regular charging and regular equalization.

    Strings of 4 Voc 37 x 4 = 148v, which is too high for the controller unless low temps are reliably always well above 25° (which doesn't appear to be the case for the parts of Ghana I looked at).  Strings of 4 might be worth considering with a different controller (eg MN classic) that can handle higher Voc without damage though.

    In this location and application, strings of three looks like the best option.


    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Estragon said:
    Strings of 3 would be ~66Vmp (hot),  ????
    I think you got something off here...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Oops, 23 x 3 = 69v  :(
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Estragon and everyone thank you so much, i have learned a lot from you guys :), much appreciated
  • luqman
    luqman Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭✭
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    @Estragon could you please let me know the capacity of fuses i will need coming from the batteries to the charge controller and isolator for the AC out

    thanks
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Luqman,

    I noticed that you have auto-fill for the FLA battery. I suggest that you use a valve and only use the auto fill when you are watching. It does not happen often, but on occasion the cell valves have been known to stick and overfill. Makes a mess, plus you are left trying to drain the mostly water electrolyte and adding "the correct amount" of acid to get the cell back into service.

    Regarding fuses/breakers and wiring... The DC power systems for batteries tend to run at high current for hours at a time (charging the battery from 50% to 80%+ State of Charge, usually current limited by the battery charger). In North America, our fuses and breakers (at least the NEC used for most uses) tend to be rated as--Will eventually trip at 100% of rated current (could be minutes to hours), and will not trip at 80% or less current... So, I like to derate the solar power/battery wiring because of this (and even your AC wiring, to avoid false trips and make things a bit more reliable and more efficient--heavier wiring, less voltage drops and losses). NEC is conservative, but I use 1.25x (or 1/1.25 = 0.80) as a derating factor):
    • 30 amp max continuous current * 1.25 NEC derating = 37.5 Amp ~ 40 amp rated Fuse/Breaker/Branch circuit wiring minimum
    • 30 amp circuit * 0.80 NEC derating = 24 amp maximum continuous current suggested
    Marine wiring specifications do allow smaller gauge wiring than NEC would... Also (at least in North America), we have NEC rated wiring with different types/temperature rated insulation (Outdoor, wet, under sun, oil resistant, number of wires in conduit, ambient temperatures) which can get fairly complex if you are trying for an NEC (US National Electric Code) based installation.

    And, check the ratings for fuses/breakers. There is a maximum working voltage, and AC vs DC current ratings (AC current is "easier to stop" vs DC current--So DC ratings are typically lower for breakers/switches/fuses). Remember that battery banks can output 100s to 1,000s of Amperes of current--Fuses/Breaker have a maximum Ampere Interrupt Current rating too. Here is a nice discussion if you want the details:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/353232/oversized-wire-and-breaker

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset