3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

YostFMXYostFMX Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭
So after looking at all the small refrigerators and it seems they are all junk and don't work well and break I think I open to a chest freezer. I found that home depot sell a Magic Chef 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer that is 219 kWh per year. It has a thermostat on the out side of the unit. So If I trun it way down to like 1 or 2 would that be the same thing as a "chest freezer conversion"?

My thinking is that it would be a good little frige thats would use probably under 150 kWh per year...

Is this right? or is a "chest freezer conversion" something other then just a thermostat?
«1

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Generally, you need to add a separate thermostat that will work/cycle in the refrigerator temperature range. If you choose an electronic controller--you can have very precise temperature control (get near 32F with out freezing your stuff).

    You will probably want to add a glued on plastic "gutter" around the inside of the "fridge" and direct the water to a tube out the base drain as it will condense water and probably puddle in the bottom.

    Also--you may want a small computer fan to stir the air to prevent temperature stratification (warm at top, cold at bottom). Others have found an added fan is not needed.

    Here is a good thread to read through:

    Chest freezer as a chest refrigerator

    If you cannot find a good temperature controller-- A McMaster-Carr, or Grainger Industrial Supply might be a good place to start.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • YostFMXYostFMX Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    So you say it wouldn't go to a low enough temp with the thermostat thats on the unit then?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Typically, the freezer thermostat will not go warm enough.

    Also, sometimes they don't work very accurately at that end of the range (you want to fridge somewhere between 33F and 40F (you may not find a setting that stays above 33F and does not go above 40F)...

    A freezer that is set for 0F and cycles +/- 5F is not a problem. A thermostat set for 37F that cycles from 32-43 is probably not desirable.

    I assume you will be running this off an inverter... You will probably want to pick an inverter with a DC inhibit input so you can cycle the inverter on and off with the thermostat mechanical and save the ~6-8 watts of stand by power. Or you can pick a DC powered temperature controller (low power draw) and cycle the AC or DC (you can use an inverter that has a search mode that only draws more power when there is a >8 watt AC load)...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • YostFMXYostFMX Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Ok, now my head is spinning...

    I have no clue what your talking about with AC / DC stuff. I will be running a 110 AC freezer with a *True* sinewave inverter (off 12V DC), I don't think it has what ever you said with that power hibernate? Haha I want to do this as easy as I can (so I can undersand it)

    From what I read you run your splice thermostat into the AC power cord? That don't seem right?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Yes, one way to do this is to splice a refrigerator replacement (you might get one from a local appliance store) into the AC line.

    The issue is the "standby power" of the TSW inverter... 6-8 watts is typical:
    • 8 watts * 24 hours = 192 Watt*Hours per day
    Your "freezer conversion" may take as little as 250 Watt*Hours per day--so just the standby power on the inverter can be significant--unless you have other uses for the power.

    The Morning Star 300 watt TSW inverter (600 watt surge) (I am not sure it is big enough to start the freezer compressor), for example has a 55 mAmp standby setting:
    • 0.050 Amps * 12 volts = 0.6 watts
    • 0.6 watts * 24 hours per day = 14.4 Watt*Hours per day standby losses
    Much better.

    You could also use a 12 volt relay to turn on the inverter's DC input power instead--but you are talking about a pretty big relay (possibly 100 amp)--which is an issue in itself.

    The SureSine (for example) also has a simple electrical control line where you can "turn the inverter on/off with a simple switch--you could control the inverter with the fridge thermostat (if your inverter brand/model had a "remote on/off" input).

    The original project appeared to use a digital control--perhaps a heater/AC control for a home (with latching relay). Unsolder the thermistor and add a thin set of wires to it and move into the fridge. The AC relay is good for 5 amp at 120 VAC--Perhaps to control the inverter remote control or add a second AC relay to handle the fridge starting loads directly...

    Or, a simple mechanical one for $60. Plug it into the inverter and plug the fridge into the piggy backed cord.

    By the way--I am guessing that you cannot set your "Freezer Thermostat" to refrigerate--just has been my experience when I tried that years ago...

    -Bill

    Hmmm, My home digital thermostat only goes to 45F--not quite low enough... Still trying to find a good battery powered digital thermostat.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Here is a nice 9-18v digital thermostat that will switch AC loads--$90

    Hmm... The fridge may not last you a life time--but I would hope the controller does.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • YostFMXYostFMX Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Thanks! The simple one for $60 is what I'm looking for. Oh, so does it just work by cuting the power when it hits the temp? If so that sounds hard on the refrigerator... If not wondering how it can control the temp just on the power in line.

    Sorry for all the questions, electrical is not my thing.

    Edit_____________________

    Heres the inverter I just orders last night: XANTREX-PROWATT-SW600-600-WATT-TRUE-SINEWAVE-INVERTER

    I know its not really for solar... but I can't pay $275 +
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Yep, you just set the "freezer dial" to a low temperature. And the external controller turns on the AC power to cool, and when the temperature set point is reached--it turns off.

    Basically, the same way the freezer's mechanical thermostat works.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • LucManLucMan Solar Expert Posts: 223 ✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator
    YostFMX wrote: »
    So after looking at all the small refrigerators and it seems they are all junk and don't work well and break I think I open to a chest freezer. I found that home depot sell a Magic Chef 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer that is 219 kWh per year. It has a thermostat on the out side of the unit. So If I trun it way down to like 1 or 2 would that be the same thing as a "chest freezer conversion"?

    My thinking is that it would be a good little frige thats would use probably under 150 kWh per year...

    Is this right? or is a "chest freezer conversion" something other then just a thermostat?

    Refrigerators and freezers have different refrigeration components, IE. compressors, condensers, evaporators, and metering devices. These components are selected for certain temp. range operation.
    The compressors and components are designed to operate within a certain range:
    Refrigerators 35 - 45 degrees
    Freezers- -10 to +10
    A lot has to do with design of the compressor, cylinder displacement, & motor windings. Hermetic compressors utilize suction cooling (cool refrigerant returning back to the compressor to cool the motor windings) at higher temps there may be insufficient cool refrigerant returning to keep the compressor within it's temperature operating range.
    At higher temperatures the compressors may draw amperage over what they are rated for, that's OK for short term conditions, but to subject the compressor to operating conditions out of it's range will shorten the lifespan of the compressor.

    So in short it's not a good idea freezers are designed as freezers it a lot more than just the thermostat used or the setting.
  • YostFMXYostFMX Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Can anyone comfirm this?

    I know there are people in here that have done "chest freezer conversion" and I've never heard anything bad about them?
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Personally, I would not worry very much about it...

    The fridge conversion runs for very few minutes per hour... Assume 120 watt freezer running 250 Watt*hours per day total energy usage:
    • 250 WH per day / 120 watts = 2 hours
    • 2 hours * 1/24 * 60 min = 5 minutes an hour (on average)
    Plus, every freezer is plugged in when new (and warm inside)--Plus anytime somebody puts a load of non-frozen food in the freezer--it has to run for hours to draw off all the heat...

    Lastly, the cost of a small freezer/fridge is low--If there was any long term life issue--the fact that you are consuming 1/4 the power of a full sized fridge--you are saving money on solar panels and battery (+ battery replacement) that would be required to run the more power hungry version of the appliance.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • YostFMXYostFMX Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    Just went and checked some chest freezers and start up on a 5.0 chest freezer was 12 AMPS! Thats 1,440 watts. Thats nuts... any brands that have a lower start up AMPs? If not I'm going to have to take back my 600/1200 watt inverter.
  • TelcoTelco Solar Expert Posts: 201 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 3.5 cu. ft. chest freezer with thermostat as a refrigerator

    What I've found is the smaller units, being small, do not have good tech put into them. The guys that make this stuff put the good stuff in the large, expensive units but put the 1950s tech crap into the cheap seats. What's worse, because the profit margin is not that great on the smaller units, there's only one, maybe two companies that make them all so they are the same unit across all manufacturers. If you find any major make with a small unit, it was actually made by the same company, and is the same unit, as the bargain brand.

    Plus, it's easier to use a larger unit than a smaller unit. I picked up a 6 cu ft freezer to replace my 15 cu ft one when the kids moved out, figuring it would be enough for 2 people. I didn't realize at the time that the smaller shelves mean a much larger percentage of the room is needed to store a ham. Where before a ham left enough room around it to stack stuff on and around the ham, now there's not really enough room to do that so I have less usable room.

    Check on a larger chest freezer, you might find that the larger units are more efficient in actual power usage than the tiny ones. You might also see if you can find a 12V unit anywhere, which would eliminate the need for an inverter. No idea on that though, most of the 12V market is going to be RVers and they aren't known for needing deep freezes.
  • kampf2000kampf2000 Registered Users Posts: 4
    I took a dufferent approach.  I bought 2 70qt pelican super coolers for cold storage.  I have a 5 cf freezer running off solar powered battery bank with 1500 watt inverter.  2/3 s of the freezer is filled with frozen water bottels.  Empty Clamato bottkes work well bedause they are square.  Each day I swap a few water bottles from freezer to cooler.  Coolers work very well to keep things cold, mainly produce and drinks.  I freeze most meats.
  • 54d1854d18 Solar Expert Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    I just used a refrigerator thermostat, available on Amazon for about $12.
    I drilled a tiny hole in the corner right above where the compressor is
    and ran the capillary tube up from the compressor compartment into the 
    freezer (Fridge,) and coiled it up in the corner, then disconnected the original
    thermostat, and connected the new one.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭✭
    As was pointed out the tiny refrigerators are very inefficient. I was shocked to see their energy usage being well over half of my large fridge/freezer - which also has a good defrost cycle.

    I am going to try one I found on Ebay for ~$20 as I recall. It only goes down to 40F but that is OK with me. I have visions of using an upright commercial freezer as a fridge someday. Upright food storage is far more accessible - but it also dumps out dense, cold air when the door is opened of course. 

    Freezers use ~ twice the insulation of fridges - pretty obvious advantage there.

    My XL freezer is a Danby and uses an impressively small amount of energy. Amazon used to carry it for about $700 as I recall. I'd pounce on another if Costco ever gets another batch. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • 54d1854d18 Solar Expert Posts: 75 ✭✭✭
    Originally I had an older 3.5 cu. ft. of unknown brand, it was given to me, several years later it crapped out
    and I bought a Magic Chef 5 cu. ft. and it definitely uses more power, has very hard starts, even dims the
    lights, I never actually measured the startup, but I know its high.  The original 3.5 used somewhere around 150 wh per day,
    and if memory serves, that is on the high side of what it was.
  • Marc KurthMarc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 732 ✭✭✭✭
    My son in law is a home beer brewer. He uses 5-7 cu ft chest freezers with a simple commercial, mechanical (capillary tube) thermostat to adjust to his needs - as described by 54d18, His first conversion is about six years old and still running.

    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
  • 706jim706jim Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    An 11.5  cubic fridge/freezer runs about 300Kw-hr/ year. And defrosts, has a light and needs no fancy thermostat. Seems to me to be a far more practical setup than a freezer. Not to mention the fact that you will have to dig everything out of that freezer once it starts to fill up with stuff.
    Island cottage solar system with 2400 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1kw facing southwest 400watt ancient Arco's facing south.Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Trace C40 PWM controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 27th year.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭✭
    706jim said:
    An 11.5  cubic fridge/freezer runs about 300Kw-hr/ year. And defrosts, has a light and needs no fancy thermostat. Seems to me to be a far more practical setup than a freezer. Not to mention the fact that you will have to dig everything out of that freezer once it starts to fill up with stuff.
    I'm in the long term market for this item. Where might it be found?
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • 706jim706jim Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    706jim said:
    An 11.5  cubic fridge/freezer runs about 300Kw-hr/ year. And defrosts, has a light and needs no fancy thermostat. Seems to me to be a far more practical setup than a freezer. Not to mention the fact that you will have to dig everything out of that freezer once it starts to fill up with stuff.
    I'm in the long term market for this item. Where might it be found?
    Brand is Insignia which I think is a re branded General Electric available from Best Buy. It was on sale for $400CDN last week probably less in the US.
    Island cottage solar system with 2400 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1kw facing southwest 400watt ancient Arco's facing south.Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Trace C40 PWM controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 27th year.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭✭
    Currently on sale for $330 around here. It offers 10.5 cubic feet and uses 300 kWh/year.  https://www.bestbuy.com/site/insignia-10-5-cu-ft-top-freezer-refrigerator-black/6339163.p?skuId=6339163

     I need to rethink my fridge size priorities. These days I am also reconsidering my winter weather priorities. Now I know why retirees like to head south for the winter. Softening up I am. 

    This winter seems unusually cold and cloudy. But so did last year. It is likely me getting soft. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • 706jim706jim Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    There's also a slightly deeper version with 11.5 cubic feet capacity. You can get it in white or stainless as well. For that price, you can't go wrong giving it a try.
    Island cottage solar system with 2400 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1kw facing southwest 400watt ancient Arco's facing south.Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Trace C40 PWM controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 27th year.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭✭
    Supposedly stainless is more energy efficient though I can't scientifically explain it properly. Also what I was told. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • 706jim706jim Solar Expert Posts: 313 ✭✭✭
    Bill thanks for the link. As others have probably found, many of the compact (3 cubic foot) fridges take almost as much power as a much larger unit. And the Insignia model I mentioned looks like a really good value for capacity and power consumption at the price ($300) mentioned. And one must consider spending a premium for slightly better efficiency with the low price of extra solar panels.
    Island cottage solar system with 2400 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1kw facing southwest 400watt ancient Arco's facing south.Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Trace C40 PWM controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 27th year.
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2019 #28
    From BB's link: https://www.energystar.gov/productfinder/product/certified-residential-refrigerators/details-plus/2345782#PriceAndLocation

    The Liebherr(sp) is 18.9 cu ft and uses ~260 kWh. Just came out with no mention of price or place. I think it might be in "someones imagination". Or very, very expensive.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 30,226 admin
    In times past, there was some "specmanship" going on with refrigerator ratings... From 2007:

    https://inexpensivehomebuilding.blogspot.com/2007/02/fraud-energy-star-efficiency.html
    "An insidious, new form of noncompliance has recently emerged. Thanks to microprocessor controls, some appliances now recognize when they are being tested and switch into a low-energy mode. According to Consumer Reports, this appears to be the case with a new LG refrigerator, which inexplicably switches off some operations when the ambient temperature approaches the testing temperature and when doors haven’t been opened for a while. These measures cut enough electricity use to qualify the unit for Energy Star endorsement and sales-enhancing utility rebate programs. LG appears to be failing to comply with energy regulations in two countries. (Is anybody paying attention?) But LG is not alone; Japanese refrigerator manufacturers became so adept at circumventing the test that actual electricity use of refrigerators was typically twice as high as the labels claimed. The situation became so embarrassing that the government changed the test procedure to make it harder to circumvent. Many U.S. appliance manufacturers (and importers) are poised to adopt the same approach as LG and Japanese manufacturers. The FTC, DOE, and Energy Star should be on the alert."
    https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-10-470 (from 2010)

    American consumers, businesses, and federal agencies rely on the Energy Star program to identify products that decrease greenhouse emissions and lower energy costs. In addition, the federal government and various states offer tax credits and other incentives to encourage the use of energy-efficient products including Energy Star products. Specifically, approximately $300 million from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act will be used for state rebate programs on energy-efficient products. The Energy Star program, which began in 1992, is overseen jointly by the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). Given the millions of dollars allocated to encourage use of Energy Star products and concerns that the Energy Star program is vulnerable to fraud and abuse, GAO was asked to conduct proactive testing to (1) obtain Energy Star partnership status for bogus companies and (2) submit fictitious products for Energy Star certification. To perform this investigation, GAO used four bogus manufacturing firms and fictitious individuals to apply for Energy Star partnership and submitted 20 fictitious products with fake energy-savings claims for Energy Star certification. GAO also reviewed program documents and interviewed agency officials and officials from agency Inspector General (IG) offices.

    GAO's investigation shows that Energy Star is for the most part a self-certification program vulnerable to fraud and abuse. GAO obtained Energy Star certifications for 15 bogus products, including a gas-powered alarm clock. Two bogus products were rejected by the program and 3 did not receive a response. In addition, two of the bogus Energy Star firms developed by GAO received requests from real companies to purchase products because the bogus firms were listed as Energy Star partners. This clearly shows how heavily American consumers rely on the Energy Star brand. The program is promoted through tax credits and appliance rebates, and federal agencies are required to purchase certain Energy Star certified products. In addition, companies use the Energy Star certification to market their products and consumers buy products relying on the certification by the government of reduced energy consumption and costs. For example, in 2008 Energy Star reported saving consumers $19 billion dollars on utility costs. The table below details several fictitious GAO products certified by Energy Star. GAO found that for our bogus products, certification controls were ineffective primarily because Energy Star does not verify energy-savings data reported by manufacturers. Energy Star required only 4 of the 20 products GAO submitted for certification to be verified by an independent third party. For 2 of these cases GAO found that controls were effective because the program required an independent verification by a specific firm chosen by Energy Star. However, in another case because Energy Star failed to verify information provided, GAO was able to circumvent this control by certifying that a product met a specific safety standard for ozone emission. At briefings on GAO's investigation, DOE and EPA officials agreed that the program is currently based on self-certifications by manufacturers. However, officials stated there are after-market tests and self-policing that ensure standards are maintained. GAO did not test or evaluate controls related to products that were already certified and available to the public. In addition, prior DOE IG, EPA IG, and GAO reports have found that current Energy Star controls do not ensure products meet efficiency guidelines.


    PDF download of above summary (Energy Star program fraud and abuse):

    https://www.gao.gov/assets/310/301514.pdf

    I am sure that it is all better now...  :s

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,667 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They should have kept the VW diesel scandal under wraps (same scam but with car emissions & mileage testing) so as to not clue everyone else about it.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,989 ✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    They should have kept the VW diesel scandal under wraps (same scam but with car emissions & mileage testing) so as to not clue everyone else about it.
    It has been pointed out that if VW had to cheat to pass it is likely the others did as well. All of the top notch Tour de France riders used supplements. Lance Armstrong got caught. Would Tour de France officials really tell us that all of the top finishers "cheated"? Same with the Olympics etc. 

    Interesting that LG got busted again - in BB's link. They used to obtain astonishingly low energy figures simply by using the dark picture settings on their televisions. When it is that remarkably easy to cheat, perhaps the test designers should take a good hard look at themselves. 

    Me being me, I may feel that using extraordinary, and extralegal, surveillance is also cheating when it comes to law enforcement. But it "isn't cheating" when the government does it? Then we may consider Ayn Rand's insight. 


       

    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
Sign In or Register to comment.