Makita tool battery vs. generic battery?

softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
Hopelessly addicted to tools for decades now. Could not resist a used Makita cordless tool lot - that sale turned out acceptable.

Invested in two unused lithium18 volt Makita "5Ah" batteries. Received showing just one bar of power. They were 25% off so that was "generally acceptable". Charged up to 20.3 volts (four bars)
Invested in two unused lithium18 volt generic "6Ah" batteries. Received at 18.9 volts, charged up to just 19.0 volts. Same size and weight as genuine Makita batteries. 

Disappointed in an 18 volt battery charging to only 19 volts.  Considering feedback that reflects this "full voltage". Yet want to be fair.

Have considerable experience with tool batteries. Their charged voltage reading says almost everything about the batteries potential. For example, if a 9.6 volt battery only charges to 10 volts, it is virtually useless for real work. 

Perhaps I am missing something though.

*Don't spend good money on used tool batteries without testing them. It is very rare to buy a good used tool battery. I'm a certified tool junkie with plenty of experience. 
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,747 admin
    Here is a nice website for Makita battery and charger issues:

    https://www.powertoollab.com/makita-battery-charger-problems/

    There seems to be a fair amount of Li Ion battery "recycling" going on these days (mainly computer battery packs from China, Malaysia, etc.) being taken apart, cells quickly tested to see if they take some sort of charge, and re-wrapped. Selling 18650 Li Ion batteries (very common type) with either a very small battery and filler inside an 18650 case, or "recycled" laptop batteries taken apart, see if they can hold a quick charge, and re-wrapped with impossible specifications (like 3x real mAH capacity of new/quality cells) and $5 for a pair of batteries (when similar good quality new battery is ~$10 each). Many are some version of TrustFire brand name (xxxxxFire).

    Apparently, lots of these batteries are being sold on E-Bay...

    I can imagine that tool battery packs could be getting these recycled batteries...

    https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?400136-Disassembly-of-some-UltraFire-batteries
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?386111-Ultrafire-rechargeable-trouble&p=4586552&viewfull=1#post4586552

    Very small battery inside a "flour" filled 18650 Cell


    Grade "C" 18650 Battery "plant":
    https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/18852875-recycled-grade-c-18650-batteries-from-china

    Note sign on 55 Gallon Drums says something along the lines of "Waste Nickel-Cadmium Battery / Storage Area".

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭
    Seems to me that if you care about AH, it would be best to test AH.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    jonr said:
    Seems to me that if you care about AH, it would be best to test AH.
    There are a lot of problems with this statement. It is akin to saying that if you care about food nutrition, you should test food nutrition.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    Here is a nice website for Makita battery and charger issues:

    https://www.powertoollab.com/makita-battery-charger-problems/

    There seems to be a fair amount of Li Ion battery "recycling" going on these days (mainly computer battery packs from China, Malaysia, etc.) being taken apart, cells quickly tested to see if they take some sort of charge, and re-wrapped. Selling 18650 Li Ion batteries (very common type) with either a very small battery and filler inside an 18650 case, or "recycled" laptop batteries taken apart, see if they can hold a quick charge, and re-wrapped with impossible specifications (like 3x real mAH capacity of new/quality cells) and $5 for a pair of batteries (when similar good quality new battery is ~$10 each). Many are some version of TrustFire brand name (xxxxxFire).

    Apparently, lots of these batteries are being sold on E-Bay...

    I can imagine that tool battery packs could be getting these recycled batteries...

    https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?400136-Disassembly-of-some-UltraFire-batteries
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?386111-Ultrafire-rechargeable-trouble&p=4586552&viewfull=1#post4586552

    Very small battery inside a "flour" filled 18650 Cell


    Grade "C" 18650 Battery "plant":
    https://batterybro.com/blogs/18650-wholesale-battery-reviews/18852875-recycled-grade-c-18650-batteries-from-china

    Note sign on 55 Gallon Drums says something along the lines of "Waste Nickel-Cadmium Battery / Storage Area".

    -Bill
    I've had a few generic batteries that were very good. Most of the time they are inferior. Sometimes the manufacturer has exorbitant prices for batteries that are "discontinued". I often have a problem with the decision of a major manufacturer to essentially discontinue service on a product they sold.  

    Much as I hate the phrase "You get what you pay for", it often holds true in the battery world. 

    As for Ebay scams, they are pretty famous. What gets me is the overwhelming positive feedback people generally give to a lower price. The review that actually tests the product is both rare and often reeks of the rants of a competitor. Why do Ebay sellers usually enjoy better feedback ratings than Amazon sellers? Amazon is less risky but frequently more expensive. 

    It would take a government enterprise to impartially test product quality. Even if possible, that is fraught with problems. The days of being able to trust established brand names are increasingly rare as manufacturers scour the earth for the cheapest source and the slickest marketing. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,212 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's an outfit locally that "repacks" tool batteries with replacement cells in whatever chemistry and format.  They're battery specialists I bought my banks from.  Though not a big company, they seem to know what they're doing.  I plan on trying them for some of my dead tool batteries, for which replacements are expensive or unavailable.

    Maybe someone doing this in your area?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Metro areas tend to offer such services. Quality cells are reputed to be about as expensive as new manufacturer batteries though. I am rural with very limited services in the area. 

    It is ridiculously easy to pack a battery with inferior cells and call it whatever. How many people are equipped to test the Ah capacity of a battery? Yes, it is easy if one knows how to do it. Everything is easy once one knows to do it.

    The generic battery seller (Vanon I think) offered me half the money back instead of shipping them back. I took the offer and bought a genuine Makita 6Ah battery. When rural, just shipping stuff back becomes an onerous chore at times. Ebay gives one a very limited time to get the merchandise back after filing a return claim. Apparently they feel that everyone has a mail box in the front yard. For me, it is 12 miles of washboard roads. There may be snow drifts this time of year. Plus the printer is used infrequently. It seems to use a few dollars worth of ink when it is fired up once in a while - cleaning out the heads. 

    Rural living is so different than urban living it borders on ridiculous. One either becomes their own hardware store or they spend half their time driving back and forth when doing projects. 

    Should I still rate the batteries as only charging to 18.9 volts when they should clearly charge much higher? Probably. I don't see how the seller achieved really good feedback. They must frequently sell better cells. I got some inferior cells this time. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,747 admin
    Without knowing details (cell chemistry, configuration, charging/BMS (battery management system) and such... It is hard to tell what the 18.x volts means.

    You can get single cell chargers to check capacity before installing into a drill pack. Need spot welder to make bank (don't solder, can ruin batteries).

    I avoided battery powered drills for a long time--Just AC drills plus lots of extension cords. Finally got a "nice" Makita electric driver+drill set in Li Ion (had older NiCad before). Has been very nice--And I just accept the $xx battery packs with limited life as a cost of admission. Hopefully the Li Ion packs will last longer than my NiCad packs did.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    BB. said:
    Without knowing details (cell chemistry, configuration, charging/BMS (battery management system) and such... It is hard to tell what the 18.x volts means.

    You can get single cell chargers to check capacity before installing into a drill pack. Need spot welder to make bank (don't solder, can ruin batteries).

    I avoided battery powered drills for a long time--Just AC drills plus lots of extension cords. Finally got a "nice" Makita electric driver+drill set in Li Ion (had older NiCad before). Has been very nice--And I just accept the $xx battery packs with limited life as a cost of admission. Hopefully the Li Ion packs will last longer than my NiCad packs did.

    -Bill
    I suppose it is theoretically possible for the 18.9 volt battery to be comparable to the 20.4 volt battery. In practice however, with tool batteries, charged voltage is the absolute undisputed king. So far that has been true 100% of the time.

    I would guess your Makita lithium batteries will usually last about 50% longer than your previous NiCad batteries did. Lithium has more lenient qualities for one thing.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭
    I really wish that companies would build lithium power tools that take standard size lithium replacement batteries.  No spot welding, just drop in new batteries.   It would be a bit bigger, but worth it to me.

    I agree -  most aftermarket batteries are either junk or at least highly overrated.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 11 #11
    Plus the printer is used infrequently. It seems to use a few dollars worth of ink when it is fired up once in a while - cleaning out the heads.

    Wait for a Staples or similar Big-box retailer to have a clearance of basic Laser printers and buy one, make sure to get at least one "full" printer cartridges the one in the machine is a  (usually 2 sizes)  as they may not stock them for long...  You will never have to clean the ink jet  cartridge again and they work every time...

    Hopefully the Li Ion packs will last longer than my NiCad packs did.

    Yes they do, just watch for the first signs of losing power and stick it back on the charger. I have several sizes  of 18 v and love em.Year 4 of building the cabin.... I recently got one of the Makita  12V  drill and impact driver set, very impressive power and battery life . My B & D  Ni-Cd's were junk no matter what size battery Voltage



     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    jonr said:
    I really wish that companies would build lithium power tools that take standard size lithium replacement batteries.  No spot welding, just drop in new batteries.   It would be a bit bigger, but worth it to me.

    I agree -  most aftermarket batteries are either junk or at least highly overrated.

    Well I suspect they make most of their money from follow up battery sales. 

    Somewhat related rant. Spent a lot of time being exposed to ethics philosophy in church and the Boy Scouts. Studied business and economics extensively at university. I think the word "ethics" may have been used a couple times. Profits was probably heard more than anything. The drive for profits, at the expense of other considerations, was manageable in the 1970's. It has been largely out of control for several decades now.

    "All systems are hellish sans ethics." John Adams
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Plus the printer is used infrequently. It seems to use a few dollars worth of ink when it is fired up once in a while - cleaning out the heads.

    Wait for a Staples or similar Big-box retailer to have a clearance of basic Laser printers and buy one, make sure to get at least one "full" printer cartridges the one in the machine is a  (usually 2 sizes)  as they may not stock them for long...  You will never have to clean the ink jet  cartridge again and they work every time...

    Hopefully the Li Ion packs will last longer than my NiCad packs did.

    Yes they do, just watch for the first signs of losing power and stick it back on the charger. I have several sizes  of 18 v and love em.Year 4 of building the cabin.... I recently got one of the Makita  12V  drill and impact driver set, very impressive power and battery life . My B & D  Ni-Cd's were junk no matter what size battery Voltage



    Making a mental note to keep an eye out for a laser printer bargain. All I need is good B & W printing every few months.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭
    > "All systems are hellish sans ethics." John Adams

    Do you have a reference?

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    jonr said:
    > "All systems are hellish sans ethics." John Adams

    Do you have a reference?
    Heh - thats my name.  ;)
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Well a curve ball has presented. I got another Makita charger when I bit on a used 1/2" impact. The 1/2" impact, with a powerful battery, makes busting lug nuts almost effortless.

    So I put the Vanon knock in this charger and it now reads 19.8 volts. Much better than 18.9. The Makita batteries go to 20.4. The "new" charger does not move the Makita battery past 20.4. 

    However this impact took a couple seconds to knock off a lug nut on my Jeep. Could be the battery. Could be the impact. Could be the cold weather? Could be that the lug nut was on pretty tight. Buying used stuff is always interesting.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Wheelman55Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #17
    softdown said:
    Well a curve ball has presented. I got another Makita charger when I bit on a used 1/2" impact. The 1/2" impact, with a powerful battery, makes busting lug nuts almost effortless.

    However this impact took a couple seconds to knock off a lug nut on my Jeep. Could be the battery. Could be the impact. Could be the cold weather? Could be that the lug nut was on pretty tight. Buying used stuff is always interesting.
     I've had one of the Makita 1/2" impacts for a couple years. While it is strong, it's not "instantaneous.  Works great for changing tires on my pickup trucks. 
    Building Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Have a Milwaukee impact that was too weak when new. Milwaukee did considerable work according to the repair sheet - including rewinding the motor as I recall. That helped a lot but so does a more powerful battery. It would not remove a minivan lug nut at first. Now it will readily do a truck lug nut when a 9Ah battery is used. The battery is important.

    The Makita is a larger, heavier impact. But it will not accept a Makita battery which is very odd. The Vanon battery worked on the Jeep lug nut but struggled more than it should. It was only charged to 18.9 volts at the time. The first Makita charger only gave it a 18.9 volt charge. The newer charger takes it up to 19.8 which makes it much stronger.

    Of course it usually takes a lot more power to remove 13/16" truck lug nuts than 3/4" Jeep or minivan lug nuts. The torque specifications are much different. Then again, sometimes I tighten stuff more than I have to.

    Couple mysteries. Why does the Makita impact fail to accept a Makita battery? Shoot, it could also be a small defect in the battery housing. The impact also struggled more than it should. Excessive struggle acts to beat up the lug nut housing.

    I have six cars and trucks six trailers as well. Somewhat familiar with lug nuts and impacts - of which I have four. With hard core four wheeling, long trips, and multiple trailers - impacts are "quite useful".

    As of now the minivan has a mystery coolant loss. It overheated yesterday before taking seven quarts of coolant and water. 5000 mile trip with trailer has been subsequently called off. My life can get difficult with so many iong distance investment houses, cars and trailers.

    My old and very well worn electric Milwaukee impact fails to do the truck lug nuts when they are over 160 ft lbs of torque. 

    Lug nuts are sometimes really cranked by garages as well. The mechanic may have a 700 ft lb impact and like to use it. Broke a smaller breaker bar undoing a mechanics work when I was in high school. The better tire shops use a torque wrench. I have seen a few repair shops go way overboard tightening lug nuts. Had to really, really crank a 2' breaker bar to remove some lug nuts after the gears were done on the Jeep. That mechanic was sloppy as hell - many drive shaft u-bolt nuts were only hand tightened. 

    It often comes down to how many ft lbs of torque were used.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #19
    I'd avoid any tire shop that doesn't look up the proper torque for your vehicle and use a torque wrench.   And preferably a torque limiting extension to the impact wrench that is less than the proper torque (the best way to use an impact wrench for initial tightening).

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #20
    Modern tire shops use torque wrenches these days. It might even be the law. As well it should be. I've seen lug nuts that took everything I had and I was the "Jolly Green Giant" of my school. Many people would have no chance of doing an on the road spare tire replacement. 

    Costco tire shops fancy themselves to be surgeons. Very safe practices - bit overboard in my experience. 

    Air powered impacts, on lug nuts, are a hazardous practice for tightening. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Wheelman55Wheelman55 Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #21
    SD. You must have a different Makita impact than I have. Mine has over 700 lbs of torque. 

    https://www.makitatools.com/products/details/XWT08Z
    Building Off-Grid in Terlingua, TX
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Its older and well used. Will still do the job when needed. 1/2" impacts are pretty pricey when new - compared to other power tools.

    Plus I have not used it with a healthy battery yet. Several vehicles on five acres, cordless is nice. I get a lot of flats and leaks on these country roads. Plus vandalism from the neighbors - like sticking screws through sidewalls and shooting bb's at windows and sticking hatchets through steel siding and scratching wet cement and...

    Thought I was getting away from neighbors. Surprise, surprise, surprise. Too many people. We need a wall. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • jonrjonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 13 #23
    I bought a 12V impact driver without battery (cheap) and wired it to connect to the car battery.  No issues with low voltage or AH.  

    Maybe someday I'll get a 12V->18V DC-DC converter so I can do the same with the 18V tools I seem to be collecting.  

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Sweet idea though you might smoke some motors from trying too hard.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    So my used Makita impact takes the discontinued  (several years ago) 1830 or 1850 battery. I have 1850B batteries. I am asking for a partial refund. Not sure what to ask for. I could still buy the discontinued battery at Amazon. Should I have to? The batteries have also likely been sitting around a few years now.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • softdownsoftdown Solar Expert Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭✭
    Is it possible that the generic "lithium" batteries have NiMH cells? They arrived at 18.9 volts and did not accept more voltage when charging. After exercising them with a 1/2" impact, they both accepted a charged voltage of 19.8 volts. This is what to expect from NiMH - not lithium. 

    Seems like it would be quite difficult to know exactly what chemistry is inside of a generic battery cell. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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