Solar PV System Upgrade Suggestions Wanted

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Mzee
Mzee Registered Users Posts: 4
Hello Everyone,

4 years ago we built an off grid solar home in southern MN. Our system is based on an Outback Radian Series Inverter/Charger
GS8048, 48v. HUP 1020AH FLA batteries with eighteen 250 watt roof mounted Solar World panels controlled by 2 FLEXmax 80's. We had some charging issues early on and the batteries were not charged optimally for the first year. They were never run dry but did not consistently get fully charged during that time. With all the other house build challenges it took me that long to find my hydrometer and learn that they were being undercharged. My best SG is now running in the 1.260-65 range after a full charge. We designed, sized and purchased this system before the building inspectors got a hold of us. After they were done we had to install a 380 foot water well, a mound septic and various fans and monitors whose energy consumption were not planned on. I also had not planned on having kids move back in with us bringing increased energy use with them. The first year or two generator use was limited to cloudy spells of 2-3 days duration which is normally November/December. This year I have needed to run the genset every other day when has been cloudy. I have logged over 100 hours generator run time and it is still December! I am using a Generac 4079 LP gas 10 KW genset as my primary generator with a Honda EB5000 for an emergency backup. The Outback controls this as an AGS but it takes around 5 hours to go from 60% SOC to full. This is because 4500 watts is the maximum I can get into the batteries due to the Outback charging design limits. I have considered finding a 48v. DC battery charger to speed the charging process but used they are hard to find and expensive in the size I need.

I am considering options to improve my power situation and greatly lessening generator use. I have just ordered 6 new 275 watt panels and hope to have them installed yet this year. This will be the maximum I can have on my roof.This may help with partly cloudy day charging but unless I increase my storage capacity this will probably not change generator use that much. I am wondering if Lithium ion battery technology has advanced and costs have dropped enough to consider an upgrade in the future. I have toyed with the idea of building a backup lithium based battery bank using Prius or other EV batteries but have not gotten too far with this yet. I would love to add wind generation to the system as we have a decent amount of wind on site but research on the cost/hassle/maintenance issues have dampened my enthusiasm for this approach.

Since I know that I am not the only one with abused batteries and an undersized system I figured this would be a great knowledge base to tap. I  suspect I could learn from other folk's real world experience. Any thoughts, suggestions or experiences would be appreciated.

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    edited December 2018 #2
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    For a start--Have you looked at each major appliance/AC load for your home and figured out where your energy is going? And is the energy being consumed appropriate (i.e., something consuming power 24x7 that really only needs to run 6 hours per day, using propane/etc. fuels for cooking/heating/hot water, possibly 2x water pumps--Use the deep well to fill the cistern and a smaller pump for pressurizing the house/water tank)?

    For AC/Genset charging, are you using the Radian "charger" function? Are you getting the 115 Amps DC charging output from the 8 kWatt inverter-charger?

    What is your Bulk/Absorb voltage charging set point? Something near 59.2 Volts (at ~75F/25C)?

    Is your solar array supplying the charging current & hours on charge that you expect?

    Nominally, we would be suggesting running the genset in the early AM (50-80% or so state of charge), and let the solar array manage the ~80% to >90% state of charge?

    And, many folks like to Equalize the battery bank ~1x per month to stir the electrolyte and balance the cell SG (if >0.015 to 0.030 difference between high and low cell) for an hour or so (until the "low cell" no longer goes up in SG--check every 30 minutes or so).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    ditto Bill and adding,  you need to hit those batteries with 125a. Either from your solar or genset or both. It sounds like you are way under
    that to me on solar and genny.

    You need conditioned space for lithium. The cold will quickly kill one and the heat will slowly kill them.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Bite the bullet. and plan on replacing the batteries before too long.  Too bad, because the HUP solar batteries are among the best, and if you didnt charge them properly you cant expect any warranty.   Stick with lead acid for now, maybe a reconditioned forklift battery if you have one in your area ?   You may be able to take the cells out of the HUP and have a battery shop professionally try to cycle and EQ them.

    I'm not sure why you can only get 4500w from the integral charger on a 8kw system.  I can easily get 100A out of my 6kw inverter charger,  your installer should correct this since it's apparent he did not set it up right the first time, likely owes you a set of batteries too because of his blunder.

    And using generator to charge, DONT TRUST the installer to have set that up properly either.
     Auto mode should only charge till the middle of Absorb,  beyond that, you are wasting fuel with low amp charging.
     You should manually start generator in Morning, run your heavy loads while the charging is going on, and bill your houseguests for a contribution to the battery replacement.

    After you have gotten your system dialed in, and you get a set of cheap FLA batteries to last the warranty period, THEN you can consider a Li battery set, keeping in mind it's own unique restrictions below 41F

    Finally, with a EU2000 and a quality autotransformer, you could let that idle overnight in eco throttle and save deep discharging batteries,  get the extended run kit to let it suck up a 5 gallon can to go overnight.  You start the next day with full batteries and a decent chance to let the solar complete the Absorb and maybe some EQ.  EQ with a generator sucks a lot of fuel.   I did this for a week this summer while re-doing my battery bank.   Not all autotransformers work with the EU2000  (only has 1600w cont load rating)
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    @Mzee said
     I am wondering if Lithium ion battery technology has advanced and costs have dropped enough to consider an upgrade in the future. I have toyed with the idea of building a backup lithium based battery bank using Prius or other EV batteries but have not gotten too far with this yet. I

    Building your own is an interesting project, new prysmatic cells are probably better than used EV cells, opinion only, but there are manufactured systems, one of which is coincidentally designed specifically for the equipment you already have, though probably not the least expensive option, at least the testing, electronic safeguards and setpoints has been taken care of. With regards to price, the current predictions is a rise rather than fall, but as with all commodities that could change
    .
    The performance is in a different league compared to LA, most importantly the ability to partially charge then discharge without the anxiety of trying to achieve full charge before discharge. Generator charging is very efficient as there is no long absorption required. The downsides are price and temperature especially cold. In higher temperatures they benifit from high efficiency, extremely low  self heat gain. In my case a tropical location, this is a close second in the benefits column. Price wise my DIY bank cost just under  $3K for 10Kw including supporting electronics, shipping, duties and taxes to Thailand  (no duty or tax on the batteries here). Same capacity with LA here cost $1.2K, but you only get 50% actual capacity, as opposed to 70% conservative to achieve a higher cycle expectancy, much higher  than LA, in theroy at least. Only 4 months in, no regrets so far, still trying to shake the aforementioned state of charge anxiety.


    Worth taking a look at, at very least to keep options open, ask them questions.
     https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-outback/
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    I'm just north of MN in Canada, likely similar climate and weather.  Oct/Nov/Dec tend to be tough solar months in general, but this year seems to have been even gloomier than usual so far.  Seems like it's been many weeks since we've had more than a couple hours of sun :neutral:

    Adding panels should help, but regular bulk charging with the genny was pretty much unavoidable this year in these parts.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Mzee
    Mzee Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited December 2018 #7
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    Thanks for the reply's. I will try to address some of the questions and thoughts.

    First of all I see the installer every morning when I shave so the blame stops here! The local PV supplier does mostly grid tie systems and really didn't know much about off grid systems. I wanted to do most of the work myself so I could better understand and maintain the system. I am pretty comfortable working with electrical and mechanical but am self taught and have some gaps in my knowledge base. It has been obvious that I have a lot to learn which is why having access to a group of folks who have real world experience is so helpful. I did most of the house build with the help of a general contractor/friend and spent a lot of time doing hands on work rather than doing in depth research. Taking a year to find my hydrometer was an example of how things got prioritized. I assumed the PV system was set up and working well enough so I focused on putting out other fires. During the initial setup we used a lot of factory default settings and I have frequently talked to HUP and Outback's technical support people over the past several years as questions arose. The bottom line is I do not know if I have the system set up optimally and am not sure how to find that out. The issue of only being able to use 4500W from a 10K generator has always been an annoyance. When running the generator I am usually only putting 3.9 to 4K into the batteries during bulk charging. Outback tells me that this is the maximum I can get out of the system. This is why I was thinking of finding a industrial 48v.battery charger so I could better use the 10k generator capacity and decrease run time. Reviewing my charging settings the absorb voltage is 59.4 for 4 hours (3 hours when I am running the generator), float is 54.7v., re-bulk is 50.0v. and the current limit is 80A. When possible I equalize weekly and after adding battery water. The inverter AGS is designed to automatically start at a preset low voltage but then runs a full charge cycle before shutdown hence the 3 hour setting now. If I am home I will shut it down when the bulk is complete but when I am not here it runs the complete charge cycle wasting fuel.

    I believe a fundamental error occurred during the initial install of the batteries. We did not have a 48V. charger and installed the batteries with the factory charge expecting that the system would be able to fully charge them. It is now my understanding that the system assumes that the batteries are fully charged when initially hooked up and then uses that as the baseline for recharge. It wasn't until I checked the specific gravity that I figured out we were undercharging. During that time the water levels were maintained and a number of equalization charges were done. I also did not know how inaccurate the Outback Mate3's state of charge numbers could be. I now rely on SG or resting battery voltage as an indicator of actual SOC.

    The house was built with ICF block from from foundation to roof and has especially energy efficient appliances. I do have a small window AC unit but if we are careful to cool the house down overnight and button it up in the morning it stays pretty cool without it.  We sized our system for 2 people and no deep water well or mound pump. It was sized to recharge the batteries fully on a sunny day even in December. It turns out that our county requirements for use of a traditional septic is stricter than the states so we had to build a mound with pump. Our well pump is a Grundfos SQFlex submersible with a soft start and fairly low draw but it still takes a fair amount of power to pull water from 380 feet. We had initially designed a rain water catchment system to use with a cistern to eliminate the need for a deep well but could not get approval from the county. We were told that they wanted to make sure we had safe drinking water. I suggested to them that since I was the one drinking the water that I wanted it to be safe too. I had designed a LED UV based water purifier to use ahead of a Berkey water filter but that was not good enough for them. The fact that we had lived in Africa and safely managed to live with truly bad water didn't matter to them.  We also load manage running heavy draws during sunny days or while on generator. We could do better managing phantom loads and do run an efficient freezer too.

    There was a suggestion for use of an autotransformer powered by a small generator.  I am not sure what you are referring to by "autotransformer". I have had numerous small generators in the past including an EV4000 Honda used during the house build as well as several Honda EU series gensets. The problem using one now has been that the Outback is setup for 220v. AC and cannot use generated 110v. AC directly. It either uses batteries/solar or generator 220 to power itself. When the generator is running the inverter checks its power quality and if clean enough passes it through to run the house and battery charge. That requires me to run a large enough generator to power house loads and charge batteries. The 10K generator is loafing when running but has to run a lot longer than I would like.  My vented battery bank is located in an interior utility room with the inverter so temp control is not an issue. I have not had any concerns with FLA inside the structure but the potential fire hazard with Lithiums concerns me. I would consider installing them there if I got a fire suppression system installed with them.

    This winter has been especially cloudy which is forcing the issue of upgrading but it was inevitable that we were going to have to do something. The return of an adult child and their spouse has necessitated turning storage space into living quarters which brings additional unplanned electrical demands. We are slowly beating the concept of off grid living into them but it is taking time for them to learn. For example his diesel truck with a electric block heater can no longer be plugged in constantly. He now has it set up with a remote control timer switch which helps but he has to think about it now.The bottom line is that we now have an undersized PV system for our current and future needs .I welcome your collective insight and suggestions.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    >  I had designed a LED UV based water purifier

    No you did not..   No commercially available UV leds in the frequency band for water sterilization 
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Mzee
    Mzee Registered Users Posts: 4
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    Very interesting to learn that. I did not realize that UV sterilization was frequency specific.I had intended to use a bank of UV LED's and glass tubing. 

    At least I still would have been using a Berkey!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    As far as I know, UV LEDs are in the 395nm (just barely UVA) to 365nm (a very good UVA--Middle of the UVA range).

    Germicidal UV has to be in the UVC (short wave) range--Generally using Mercury vapor lamps and quartz glass tubes.

    More about uv here.


    Germicidal Mercury lamps  are 253.7 nm and 185 nm due to the mercury within the lamp, as well as some visible light. From 85% to 90% of the UV produced by these lamps is at 253.7 nm, whereas only 5–10% is at 185 nm in the uvc range.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 #11
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    Big batteries need the amps and another reason the XW+ is the one to use. 130 ADC !     correction 140 ADC on 6848+

    But pretty hard to switch and the Radian is a nice inverter. I would buy a second radian and use it as a charger. You also get a spare inverter /charger.

    The extra solar is not your big problem because you have to have a genset. Solve the charge issue first.  You probably need 6 to 10KW of solar for down the road. Good Luck!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    UV does not go through glass, you need to use a quartz tube or window.
       At least I still would have been using a Berkey!
    YES
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • WaterWheel
    WaterWheel Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭✭
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    First let me say that there are much more knowledgeable people then me replying to this thread but I've gone through similar problems when 2 people were added to the house and I didn't take as good of care of my batteries the 1st 8 months.      I've also learned not to depend on the SOC meter for more than a rough estimate.     After a few low solar days mine tends to read about 10%  higher than the batteries actually are until I get a solid long absorb several days in a row.

    Two additional people means more well pumped showers, late night electronics and toaster oven baked midnight meals from the now 20 yr old boy,    Hair dryer and curling iron from the new wife along with additional loads of laundry.

    My initial panels are a ground mount facing south.       Since I couldn't easily add to it and I wanted to extend my solar day I added more panels to a SW facing roof with an additional charge controller.       Be sure that any additional charge controllers you add will communicate to each other so the controllers can coordinate their programming.

    After the 1st 10 months I added a mini-split and a 2nd string of batteries (boy had just moved in with me).      Since my old batteries had accelerated aging because of my lack of a SG meter at first the added batteries dropped in capacity to match the old batteries within 5 months.
    I knew this was likely to happen and it did but I managed to get almost 4 years out of the initial abused battery bank (Crown L-16 batteries) instead of the 6-8 years I probably would have gotten if I had maintained them better the 1st year.      I also was overfilling the batteries the first year.       If you don't know the proper water level for batteries learn it.

    I've learned that contacting the battery manufacturer for guidance on setting the absorb time and voltage is helpful but in your case you may not want to do that with your low charging amperage and lack of SG readings for warranty reasons.

    I have nothing to add beyond what others have said here regarding your low generator supplied charging.

    Conext XW6848 with PDP, SCP, 80/600 controller, 60/150 controller and Conext battery monitor

    21 SW280 panels on Schletter ground mount

    48v Rolls 6CS 27P

  • Graham Parkinson
    Graham Parkinson Registered Users Posts: 160 ✭✭✭
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    Regarding UV LED disinfection:

    My dear Alma Mater, University of British Columbia, Physics Department has spun off a startup company called Acuva that markets 250-280 UV Led water treatment systems.  Several of our off grid neighbours have also purchased these high quality, efficient units and we can recommend them:

    www.acuvatech.com

    Advantages over traditional fluorescent tube UV sources include instant startup (using flow sensors), long life (no changing tubes every year) no need for solenoid flow interlocks to prevent untreated water flow during warmup, low standby draw (mA).

    If you use these units, that would reduce your need to expand your solar system!


    Offgrid in cloudy PNW

    MacGyver'ed museum collection of panels, castoff batteries and generators - ready for state of art system install .... parade of surviving and dead generators: H650, Ryobi 900, Briggs and Scrap Iron 2000, H2200, H3000, Kubota 3500, Kubota 4500, Onan 7500

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    edited December 2018 #15
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    Looks neat! About $800 (CDN?) for a lower flow unit with filter and faucet (12vdc and 120vac versions). 10 year life (vs ~1 year for mercury lamps).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
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    Nice! Thanks Graham!

    I doubt it will help the op much though. Pretty small reduction for a system that is being chronically undercharged.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net