Schneider 60/150 lithium batteries settup?

bigblueshoebigblueshoe Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭
So i just started the installation of my offgrid system..but this is a lithium battery bank..im not finding clear setup instructions for the setting on the cc?

Details: 16 x 1000ah winston lifepo
15x 300watt panels
Sw4048
Mppt 60/150

Orion jr bms setup is next on my plate..

Comments

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018 #2
    The Charger Settings Menu Screen is where you would select battery type, select  Lithiunion from there settings can be adjusted for each charging stage, quote from the manual. As I'm still in the cell ballance stage, my controller is being used for lead acid currently,  so have not entered into the lithium menu yet. Have you ballenced your cells yet, you would need to do that before even thinking of charing with the controller, a BMS is almost a necessity when doing so to prevent mishaps. Please note I'm not a seasoned with expert with these batteries but have studied extensively as well as being in contact with those who are, they have been gratuitous enough to offer their help and guidance. Interestingly enough we are both doing the same build with the same equipment, albeit mine is somewhat smaller 400Ah, 24V nominal, MPPT 60 150, SW 2524.  
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,373 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You do have a Combox or SCP to program the controller with - right?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • bigblueshoebigblueshoe Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭
    So i have done that, and also set the high and low cutout voltage, but do i use a 2 stage or 3 stage charge profile?

    I do have the combox as well as the scp, and the auto generator start unit..

    Combox and scp are connected
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,373 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would suggest 2 stage, Li batteries require little absorb time.  But follow the battery Mfg's recommendation above mine.

    I use the SCP to monitor things, and adjust settings via the combox.  Much easier then flipping screens back & forth on the combox
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018 #6
    So i have done that, and also set the high and low cutout voltage, but do i use a 2 stage or 3 stage charge profile?

    I do have the combox as well as the scp, and the auto generator start unit..

    Combox and scp are connected


    Attached pdf has some interesting information but it does contradict other schools of thought, other information read discourages bottom ballancing for off grid applications suggesting top ballancing as this is where the batteries will spend more time, as opposed to electric vehicle EV where there is high discharge without charging. As far as stages of charging there is an equal amount of opinions, the suggestions from the manufacturer of the BMS I purchased specifics a voltage 28.8V for 8 series, so in essence a single stage. 

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is my plan on settings with the MPPT 60-150 

    Bulk absorption voltage 28.8V (57.6V) or 3.6 V per cell, this would allow a state charge somewhere in the mid 90% region as it best not to aim for 100%

    Float voltage 28.7V or 3.58V per cell( 57.4V)  , the transition to float will occur when current drops to 0.03 C, achieved by programming the total Ah capacity to 600Ah  for my 400Ah bank, since the controller is fixed at 2% this would be the same, in my particular case.

    Rebulk voltage, I'm thinking around 28.6V( 57.2V) to stay within the 15% state of discharge, more or less.

    Equalization disabled

    Temperature compensation disabled, set to 0.00V

    All these settings are available in custom settings, to the best of my knowledge, the voltages in  is parentheses are to relate to a 48V  bank, using the image as a guide. Some mistakes are possible in the translation to a 48V system  and bare in mind this is a theological calculation, subject to change without notice.











    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,373 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How will you measure the current drop to the batteries ?  There may be some loads present that prevents the Controller from seeing that small of a charge, while loads  (inverter) are sucking 15 amps
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    How will you measure the current drop to the batteries ?  There may be some loads present that prevents the Controller from seeing that small of a charge, while loads  (inverter) are sucking 15 amps
    Yes that would present a problem in some cases, in my particular situation the only load during charging is the refrigerator which is an intermittent load, knowing exactly what ones system has in terms of loads would be an important  factor. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • bigblueshoebigblueshoe Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭
    Thank you for the pdf, very informative. I did a top balance to the batteries when I received to 3.56v which is what the supplied chargers stopped at. (After load they taper off to 3.33v)Ive been on these batteries through just the inverter for 6 weeks now, and voltage reads 52.6. Started at 56.6v (after load about 53.2v)now with the cc programed and the arrays all connected, Im charging away. So now im working on connecting the bms unit, just waiting on the m12 ring terminals. Not sure what is meant by the current drop?
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,373 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ..... Not sure what is meant by the current drop?
    As the batteries fill up, they "draw" less current, and that current decrease (drop) is often used as the trigger to terminate charge.

    This is why I feel Li batteries are not ready for "prime time" yet.  The BMS and Charge controllers do not talk to each other, the Change controller can source 60A to the batteries, and the BMS can only bypass 2 A.  The other 58A overcharges the batteries and they go boom.
    A BMS that simply disconnects the charger, leaves the charger in a Invalid condition, where it's connected to Solar PV and no battery to run the brains of the CC. 
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 2018 #12
    @bigblueshoe Found some settings which seem to work, see pdf, I chose the 10K cycle settings and monitored cell voltages carefully, they reach close to 3.400V, then float transition takes place, saved me a lot of time experimenting.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • bigblueshoebigblueshoe Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭✭
    System is running great guys thanks for the help, note that i think the voltage curve for my batteries is a little different from the curve chart shown in earlier post, my plateau seems to be between 55-54v and 52-51v as the batteries remain in this area for a long period of time when charging(days). 

    I do have another question related to the schnider sw system, the combox communication on home network is great, however how is this use when abroad? Cant check system status or more importantly battery voltage?

    thanks in advance and happy holidays.. 
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 #14
    System is running great guys thanks for the help, note that i think the voltage curve for my batteries is a little different from the curve chart shown in earlier post, my plateau seems to be between 55-54v and 52-51v as the batteries remain in this area for a long period of time when charging(days). 

    I do have another question related to the schnider sw system, the combox communication on home network is great, however how is this use when abroad? Cant check system status or more importantly battery voltage?

    thanks in advance and happy holidays.. 
    What settings did you end up using ?

    The settings recommended for Schneider equipment by Simpliphi is what I ended up using and work well, https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://simpliphipower.com/documentation/phi-3-5/simpliphi-power-phi-3-5-battery-schneider-electric-integration-guide.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwilv97gpfneAhULfisKHa8TCCsQFjAAegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2P03yCGVBbyvMKql62mTU2
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • karrakkarrak Solar Expert Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭
    System is running great guys thanks for the help, note that i think the voltage curve for my batteries is a little different from the curve chart shown in earlier post, my plateau seems to be between 55-54v and 52-51v as the batteries remain in this area for a long period of time when charging(days). 

    I don't know where the graph that @mcgivor posted earlier came from but it looks wrong to me. The voltages are far too high, looks more like a charge graph backwards at a high charge current.

    Most of charge/discharge graphs are done at charge rates of either 0.5C or 1.0C (500A and 1000A respectively for your battery). With your 4.5kW of panels your maximum charge current will be less than 0.1C.

    Your "plateau" figure are just right at low charge and discharge rates.

    Below are some charge/discharge curves for one of the Winston cells out of my battery. The setup that has been working well for me and many others for some time is a bulk voltage of 3.45V/cell (55.2V) and terminate Absorb when the charge current reduces to ~C/40. I use a float voltage of 3.35V/cell (53.6V). This will charge the battery up to around 98%-99% and hold it at this SOC until the sun sets.

    Simon

    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 2p16s (48V), MPP Solar PIP5048MS 5kW Inverter/80A MPPT controller/60A charger, 1900W of Solar Panels
    modified BMS based on TI bq769x0 cell monitors.
    Homemade overall system monitoring and power management  https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @karrak The chart posted dose appear to be erroneous, certainly looks like a charge curve in reverse, can't remember exactly where it came from, a search early in my quest for information. Your graph is a much better representation which corresponds with other information I've gathered since, your settings almost mirror the recommended ones for the Schneider equipment by Simpliphi, termination is however  based on voltage, when 28V (56V) is reached it is held for 6 minutes, the actual battery terminal voltage is less due to voltage drop, cell voltage is  ~3.45V. The recommended float is 27V  (54V) 3.375 V, marginally higher, but very close, thanks for pointing out the discrepancy of the graph, your input is always appreciated.


    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • karrakkarrak Solar Expert Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭
    I think that for charge currents greater than 0.2C that 3.5V/cell (56V) is probably better than 3.45V/cell (55.2V) as you say to overcome voltage losses in the wiring and battery due to the higher current. Charging at 3.45V/cell at higher charge currents will mean the solar charge controller will go into CV (constant voltage/absorb) mode when the battery is less than 90% full which will reduce the current going into the battery and increase the time for it to be fully charged which is not such a good idea if you are relying on the sun to charge the battery.

    Simon

    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 2p16s (48V), MPP Solar PIP5048MS 5kW Inverter/80A MPPT controller/60A charger, 1900W of Solar Panels
    modified BMS based on TI bq769x0 cell monitors.
    Homemade overall system monitoring and power management  https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2018 #18
    Based on obversations, which I watch with intensity, especially during the final charging stage, my charge current is approximately 0.1C, the individual cell voltage is 3.45V (27.6V) for 6 minutes before float 27V , I do understand that a higher current will offset the voltage to some degree, but it's the final balance that's important, a higher array current potential will influence the voltage prompting an early transition, however if the current is restricted the voltage will have less influence. Am i, we, deviating from the OP'S thread ?  Simon  you have some very useful information which all may benifit from, thanks for the input.

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • sikmusicfreak8sikmusicfreak8 Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭✭

    I do have another question related to the schnider sw system, the combox communication on home network is great, however how is this use when abroad? Cant check system status or more importantly battery voltage?
    You need to go to the Conext Insight webpage and create an account and a "site".  You can then configure your "Web Portal" using the Combox and add your Combox MAC address to your "site" on the Inisght page.  Then you can remotely view activity on your system.  I use it to monitor mine every day.
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