Mini Split installed

mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
Finally satisfied with battery capacity I decided it time to install A/C , searched all models primarily for lowest running wattage this was the lowest available 510W, definitely not the cheapest at US $750 installed, works like a charm, running current varies between 0.8A to 2.6A usually somewhere between, at 230V. The energy guide states annual kwh as 952.78, the figure above that is annual running cost in Thai Baht, the seer rating is really meaningless as there is not much difference in temperature  between seasons,  except a few weeks perhaps, but a rough efficiency guide none the less. Will attach a power logging device when it arrives next week to see exactly how much energy is actually used over the course of a week or so. Must add this is the quietest unit I've ever heard both indoor and outdoor, the batteries should have no problem but the PV may need a couple more panels.
1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.

Comments

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018 #2
    Very nice. Still not seeing much R32 over here. What a nice thing for you guys.

    The reason we use SEER over here is it is a means to judge other units in comparing. The amps do not tell you much because they are ramping and the compressor is constantly coming on/off.

    It is the blending of all of this that gets a number like SEER in a controlled test environment.

    The highest we see over here with r410 is SEER 31. Typo  33 SEER
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Very nice. Still not seeing much R32 over here. What a nice thing for you guys.

    The reason we use SEER over here is it is a means to judge other units in comparing. The amps do not tell you much because they are ramping and the compressor is constantly coming on/off.

    It is the blending of all of this that gets a number like SEER in a controlled test environment.

    The highest we see over here with r410 is SEER 31. Typo  33 SEER
    Always wondered why North America is slow to adopt new technology, R32 and R600 are commonplace elsewhere, my refrigerator uses R600a, got comments about it being flammable, R32 is flammable too, albeit to a lesser degree but both are very efficient as well as environmentally friendly. For that matter mention Lithium batteries, the negative comments of certain fire and self destination overwhelming dominate responses to a point where those who use them are reluctant to mention them, which is a shame, with the right chemistry and BMS they are intrinsically safe, as for performance there is no and I mean No, comparison to LA, they are far superior in every way, but the instilled fear overwhelming prevents most from consideration, which is a shame, for them at least, but I'm preaching to the preacher here am I not? 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not superior in the LA cost which is a major driver in the decision, especially in large systems.

    You are right that I really like the lithium systems I use for myself and other medium/small systems. We still can run overnight on 3kwh without any real sacrifice and produce near 50kwh if needed. Most of my clients could never run on 3kwh of storage, NEVER.

    I use a prismatic system, all in one with full coms and bms at 800ah that is near 22K. An 1,100 ah LA is about 7,500. Got a way to go!


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think one reason new tech is often slow in NA adoption is overly onerous regulation.  

    Getting something like a fire protection product (eg wall penetration firestop) out of development, through ETL testing, and code approved is a long and costly process.  That makes a small tube of approved caulk cost north of $50.  There's a large incentive to sell an existing approved solution rather than repeat the process for a marginally better or cheaper alternative.  As an end-user, going with a novel process or product risks litigation or worse (eg recent London apartment fire), so we tend to be conservative (speaking as someone involved in heritage building adaptive reuse in a past life).

    Tech not (yet) subject to onerous regulation (eg Google) has quite rapid NA adoption.  Highly regulated tech, not so much.

    Reasonable people can disagree on what an appropriate level of regulation is, but it's pretty clear (to me anyway) that regulation is a big factor in time-to-market and adoption.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018 #6

    Not superior in the LA cost which is a major driver in the decision, especially in large systems.

    You are right that I really like the lithium systems I use for myself and other medium/small systems. We still can run overnight on 3kwh without any real sacrifice and produce near 50kwh if needed. Most of my clients could never run on 3kwh of storage, NEVER.

    I use a prismatic system, all in one with full coms and bms at 800ah that is near 22K. An 1,100 ah LA is about 7,500. Got a way to go!



    As you may be aware mine is a DIY, running 400Ah prysmatic 8S4P, 24V nominal, cost of cells was ~ $2500, for GC FLA 400Ah 24V nominal  $1187, add 2 BMS $100 each, one for monitoring only, $2700 total, so slightly over double the cost. The usable capacity however paints a different picture, I use conservative settings for the Conext MPPT 60-150 as recommended by Simpliphi which seem to work well, but the most important feature is the temperature gain, or lack thereof, the LA bank rarely went below 30°C, usually 35+, the LFP on the other hand are so efficient the temperature is actually lower than ambient after overnight cooling, rarely do I see 30°C, usually 26°C, comparing apples to apples. Temperature was the main reason for the switch, the other benifits are consequential. The BMS used allows opportunity loading, which seems to be a sticking point, how to turn off charging to prevent runaway voltage, with the one used, it is as seemless as using LA. Would love to share this with others however it seams the audience is deaf, so be it.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm actually quite interested.  When the time comes (hopefully not too soon) for replacement,I'm going to seriously consider lithium.  Temp is a problem (little/no self-heating and damage with low temp charging), but there's probably a way of dealing with it.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm all ears, will share everything, anything I've learned, no serects. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    I'm actually quite interested.  When the time comes (hopefully not too soon) for replacement,I'm going to seriously consider lithium.  Temp is a problem (little/no self-heating and damage with low temp charging), but there's probably a way of dealing with it.
    Please tell me Estragon!  Unattended/unheated space is a big LFP problem. I have clients in Alaska that lost all of their lithium drill batteries in a season.
    Their AGM's are fine.

    The audience is deaf Ivor because it is too much skill and work. For 6K or so one can do the same thing with an all in one warrantied lithium solution. However the LA is about $1200 and if you remember when you started, cost was a main driver then, I think.

    The simpliphi still requires a battery monitor, shunt, wiring and data entry which you may have a workaround. I think that sucks as an option for the real people I call clients. IMHO  :) it is too small also :'(
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Absolutely, temperature, especially low, has problems, I'm dealing with the opposite side of the spectrum, high temperature, so granted there may be issues with maintaining within parameters given a particular location. If attended in a controlled temperature  location, then yes, otherwise no. Understandably when dealing with clients one would not want to jeopardize ones reputation by suggesting a DIY approach, then again we're not all clients so we collaborate in finding solutions, no disrespect. With respect to a shunt I do use a battery monitoring system with  two shunts to monitor incoming and outgoing current, a work around, if you like.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • EstragonEstragon Registered Users Posts: 4,478 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the issue of cold charging can (maybe) be overcome by ensuring charging current is used first, if needed, to warm batteries to a safe charging temp, and only then to actual charging.  

    Obviously, the devil's in the details.  The warming-to-charging transition would need to be pretty foolproof (eg default to no charge if sensor(s) fail).  My lithium tool batteries seem to be okay in the cold as long as they're just stored, and not charged when cold.

    Sensor(s) would need to fairly accurately report temp for the entire bank and not just hot/cold spots.  Some sort of thermal mass may be needed to heat slowly and retain.  With decent enclosure insulation and mass, out of wind, temp could be kept above freezing for days, even in pretty cold conditions.

    I'm a bit suprised the packaged systems don't do something like this already.  Surely even in a normally conditioned space, stuff happens.  Someone leaves the garage door open or whatever.  Maybe when the time comes, a solution will available as an option in the ordinary course.

    In the meantime, I'm considering playing around with temp sensors for another project, which may give me better insight into whether/how it might work.


    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No disrespect taken !  I know how small the offgrid market is. What are there 5 regular posters here offgrid? Many do not do it full time so I know. It is alot different when there is only one person to make good decisions. Sure there is help here and other places. 

    If you loose power offgrid, the buck stops with the owner.

    The reason the packaged systems have problems with cold/heat is there are even less people who want that option. One does have to stay in business. Proper temperature in harsh environments has to be Hi Rel, and that means energy intensive.

     Maybe California will start subsidizing this? They do just about everything and everyone else ;)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018 #13
    I just had an ah Ha... about the charging of Li chemistry...  If you are going to charge  in cold weather, there should be a simple  way to direct the Solar charging away from the LIi battery to a heater (pad? under the Li Battery cells) or incandescent bulb to warm the battery enclosure.  With adequate sensors on each Li 'cell (ie~ 2V equivalent) this should be achievable.... or if there is enough power to achieve the Li equivalent of  Float, ... there is now  an opportunity load ... No?
    With a gen to provide power for charging the same concept should be applicable... even if you have to manually turn on the heat source before applying the Charge current to the Li bank...
    just ruminating on Halloween...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    The challenge of heating is not something I personally need to worry about, but thinking about it the question of how cold of an environment  comes to mind, what temperature are the current batteries kept at, a well insulated pack would be essential. To heat the cells a concrete slab poured on a styrofoam base with floor heating wire would allow an even distribution and retention of heat. Some interesting reading on the subject http://gwl-power.tumblr.com/post/77599670684/faq-low-temperature-operation-what-is-the

    A BMS could be ordered to specification with the temperature sensor to cut charging or dischargeing at both high/low temperatures. When it comes to opportunity loads, a BMS with separate charge and discharge ports is essential, it keeps things as simple as using LA.

    The real benifit of LFP is the charging ability, they can be charged at high current without the long absorption cycle, especially useful if a generator is often used during short winter days, less fuel useage, not to mention SOC doesn't need to be kept high to prevent degredation.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 5,553 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You guys have not addressed the Hi Rel part of cold charging unattended.

    Nice Halloween thoughts aside, anyone charging an LFP up in Alaska or similar would be crazy to risk that investment unattended without heat indoors at those outdoor temperatures.

    Most of my clients are the only home for dozens of miles in places where no matter who you call, the answer is maybe in a few months.

    There are so many good benefits about LFP and modern batteries. If you can keep them from getting to hot or cold, you can add exceptional life to the list.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • toothytoothy Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭✭
    edited November 2018 #16
    I keep my 16 Aquion batteries warm in Alaska, only around 55F, it just makes them happier. They are in an insulated but un-heated gen shed in an insulated battery box. I use a tank type engine block heater that I replaced the thermal switch in with a lower temp one, I think around 90 degrees but don’t remember. The heater is connected to some pex tubing that goes around the outside of the batteries. The temp is controlled by a Ranco temp controller, that’s it. It just thermo siphons. I know some of you dislike the Aquions but I think they are great. I had a kill-o-watt on it and can’t remember but it ran like 30Kwh for the winter, way less than the stupid sattalite box. 

    Sorry mcgivor, that had nothing to do with your minisplit, but I’m going to get one of those when we get moved someplace warmer and sunnier.

    Wade
  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    toothy said:
    I keep my 16 Aquion batteries warm in Alaska, only around 55F, it just makes them happier. They are in an insulated but un-heated gen shed in an insulated battery box. I use a tank type engine block heater that I replaced the thermal switch in with a lower temp one, I think around 90 degrees but don’t remember. The heater is connected to some pex tubing that goes around the outside of the batteries. The temp is controlled by a Ranco temp controller, that’s it. It just thermo siphons. I know some of you dislike the Aquions but I think they are great. I had a kill-o-watt on it and can’t remember but it ran like 30Kwh for the winter, way less than the stupid sattalite box. 

    Sorry mcgivor, that had nothing to do with your minisplit, but I’m going to get one of those when we get moved someplace warmer and sunnier.

    Wade
    No worries, the discussion almost immediately drifted off topic which is, in many ways it's a good thing, as open dialog is useful, it happens in everyday conversation and easy enough to stop by calling a back to the original topic. What wattage is the tank heater by the way?
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • toothytoothy Registered Users Posts: 23 ✭✭✭
    I don’t remember the wattage of the heating element 750-1500w @ 120v. The Ranco controller keeps the temp close so it’s not on very much as demonstrated by being on for around 5-6 months with that usage. We don’t get very cold by Alaska standards and I only insulated the box to around R11. If we got colder, I would have been more creative with insulation and diversion heating, to use it when I have it so it carried through the cloudy periods a bit more. When were coldest we are usually clear,  when cloudy it around freezing, a bit of a generalization....
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