Why I do not recommend the Midnite Array Combiner (MNPV3)

Lumisol · May 2017

I got one of these to use in my system and the quality and design are not what I would consider good.
It's usable, but barely so, and only with modifications.
The problems with the design are from the materials they chose to use and the components they installed and how they installed them as well as the design of the actual box itself.

The good:
It's an aluminum box.
Decent paint to resist corrosion
Plastic dead front

The Bad:
The knock outs are inconveniently placed.
The knock outs need to be drilled to accommodate MC4 connectors.
Drilling exposes bare metal that then needs to be re painted.

The Ugly;
The 2 back, bottom knockouts are directly in front of the mounting holes making pre-wiring with MC4's impossible.
The bumpouts for the mounting holes are not as high as the rivets used to install the rail making it not sit flush when mounted.
(The rivets need to be filed down some to have the mounting holes touch the surface you are mounting to)
The nut used to mount the ground rail is higher than the mounting holes for the box, again making the box not sit properly on the mounting surface.
(The fix is to use a thinner nut and file off some of the mounting bolt or drill a hole and tap it so a flat head machine screw can be used in place of the nut)

In hindsight, I would not ever buy one of these again and just make my own from a Spa disconnect box or an epoxy electrical box.
I suppose it was worth the 80 dollars I spent to learn a lesson about the quality of goods some companies will sell.

Estragon · May 2017

I don't think that box is designed to be used with mc4 connectors. They make other boxes that have connectors, but this one is meant for wire. Maybe you saved a few bucks modifying it versus buying one made for your application, but you can't fault the maker.

KeithWHare · May 2017

I've used a couple of of Midnite Solar MNPV6s and have been very pleased with them. The difference are that I used conduit and wire so the knockouts were the correct size. For the holes we drilled, I didn't worry about painting them. Unless you are exposed to a lot of salt, it will take a long time for bare aluminum to corrode enough to be noticeable.

Lumisol · May 2017

Estragon said:

I don't think that box is designed to be used with mc4 connectors. They make other boxes that have connectors, but this one is meant for wire. Maybe you saved a few bucks modifying it versus buying one made for your application, but you can't fault the maker.

It actually cost a lot more than an epoxy box would have cost. The MC4 connectors was only one of the flaws. The rivets and ground bus nut being too long was the biggest flaw and would have been an issue with conduit and wires as well as wires and connectors.
Leaving it as it came would have caused water to leak in from rain or the box would have been bowed if tightened to the mounting surface. That is definately the fault of the manufacturer.

Lumisol · May 2017

KeithWHare said:

I've used a couple of of Midnite Solar MNPV6s and have been very pleased with them. The difference are that I used conduit and wire so the knockouts were the correct size. For the holes we drilled, I didn't worry about painting them. Unless you are exposed to a lot of salt, it will take a long time for bare aluminum to corrode enough to be noticeable.

While that may be true, I prefer to have the metal sealed than exposed to air. I have always gone the extra steps to make the things I build the best I am capable of and don't like cutting corners.

Vic · May 2017

Hello Lumisol,

Sorry to hear of your difficulty In using that MNPV03 Combiner. It DOES seem that your use of this Combiner was really a misapplication.

It IS too bad that you did not take some photos of the fasteners that appeared to have kept the Combiner from sitting flush, on the mounting bumps.

It also seems unfortunate, that you did not try contacting MidNite Solar, about your concerns, as all of my experience with MN, is that they will jump through hoops to make good on any issues with any product. MN is very responsive, fair, and willing to do almost anything to correct customer concerns.

Am not certain just what type of surface that the Combiner was being mounted onto, but it seems that some washers, stacked if necessary, would have solved the concern about the Combiner not sitting flat on its mounting surface. Most of us have a pretty good supply of washiers...

Have not used an MNPV03, usually use MNPV12s or sixes, and never with MC4 connectors -- always use metal conduit for all cable runs.

Think that the need to paint any drilling of the box is a non-issue -- YOU chose to use a metal-cased Combiner!. And, seems, again, that your complaint that the box needs to be drilled for MC4s, is again an error in selection/specification of the Combiner.

MidNite Solar sells the bulk of PV Combiners, and simply do not hear many complaints, at all .... your complaint is the first one that I recall EVER hearing, of reading.

Not to grind on you too much, but, as we do more of this kind of work, we gain experience. That experience helps us design our systems well, using commonly available parts, and allows us to respond to errors that we have made (or of others) while building the system.

Hope your system is working well, now. Good Luck, Vic -- A FAN of MidNite Solar, the company, and their products!

Lumisol · May 2017

No, the complaint is that even for it's intended use (without and MC4's) it will not sit flat and needs to be modified in some way, whether by adding washers, or by lowering the high points on the back. That is the biggest issue, not the connectors.
Thanks though, but I have learned my lesson and won't be buying anymore of their products.
Have a great day.

littleharbor2 · May 2017

Wow, you're one tough customer. Midnite Solar makes some fine equipment, but I guess you just cant please everybody. Seems to me though you are awfully picky about a relatively minor detail.

Lumisol · May 2017

As a technician on high dollar equipment for many years, I tend to be a perfectionist, it's true, but I like companies that are inclined the same way.
Perfection is a goal that is only approached, and never realized, but these things didn't really even try in my estimate. Just using a better attachment system that a rivet that sticks out too far would be a huge step in the right direction, but it's all about cost effectiveness and saving a few pennies on every design choice and not doing what is the best solution regardless of cost.
I understand why they do these things, I just don't like being the one to have to do the refitting to make it perform to my standards. I would happily pay double if they made it worth it to me. I don't mind paying top dollar for top quality, but this was priced relatively high compared to the alternatives and was not the highest quality.
I am sure it is good enough for a lot of people, especially those that do not do their own fabricating of parts on a regular basis.

Vic · May 2017

Lumisol,

So, exactly what are the alternatives that you would have used, instead of the MNPV03?

MidNite builds its products in the USA, this is not to save a few pennies.

AND, IMO, we do have a responsibility to allow a manufacturer to make good on any real issues with a product that they manufacture, should we consumers encounter one. This feedback, closes the loop, and is essential for maintenance of product quality.

It seems to be a bit unfair to not allow the manufacturer make good on the problem that you noted, but to rag on them, instead.

Could you post a couple of photos of the rivets, and anything else that was keeping the Combiner from seating, flat on the mounting surface?

What IS the surface that the Combiner mounts onto? Could you post some photos of this exact Combiner, mounted in its final spot?

It is good thing that PV systems are much easier to install, by people that do not have years of experience in doing so. One downside of this relative ease, it that folks CAN get themselves into a bit of trouble, without knowing it.

Sending these photos to MN Solar could help them, and, perhaps, you.

Thanks! Again, not wanting to be too perfectionistic in the above, we all make some oversights, at least, I do!

Vic

Photowhit · May 2017

Lumisol said:

KeithWHare said:

I've used a couple of of Midnite Solar MNPV6s and have been very pleased with them. The difference are that I used conduit and wire so the knockouts were the correct size. For the holes we drilled, I didn't worry about painting them. Unless you are exposed to a lot of salt, it will take a long time for bare aluminum to corrode enough to be noticeable.

While that may be true, I prefer to have the metal sealed than exposed to air. I have always gone the extra steps to make the things I build the best I am capable of and don't like cutting corners.

Well you could have purchased a box designed for MC4 connectors, Of course the only people making a small one in is Midnite!

I sure am glad they make ones with out though! hate the extra expense when a hand full of $1-$2 waterproof strain reliefs will save me from having to add a connector, making another connection (fail point) and buy a more expensive box. Sounds like something a weekend warrior would do rather than a "technician".

I don't have a Midnite combiner box but have an Outback (very likely designed by the same people) the rivets are not taller than the raised mounting points. The Outback box I have is a steel box and just threaded for other furniture.

FWIW, I have some experience with water proof Strain reliefs, they work nicely. There might be one or 2 in my 2 array combiner box...

Lumisol · May 2017

Oh, look at the mounting holes at the bottom that are behind the connectors, same thing I encountered because its the same box.

It also looks like some pretty small gauge wires they used, I used larger than that so I would have had to do modifications to that box too.

As for the connectors, I did it to make the remote installation simpler as I already have the connectors on the panels so the fail point is already there, I just used a system to not add a new fail point to the loop. I put dielectric grease in the fittings and o-lube on the o-rings to minimize failures. It's a proven method.

LOL that last picture looks like a box of spaghetti.

Why didn't you use dual port glands there and only make half the holes?
Weekend warrior. lol

Photowhit · May 2017

Lumisol said:
Why didn't you use dual port glands there and only make half the holes?

All but 4 were already in the box, it's a repurpose Integrated Technologies combiner box, for positive grounded systems. I already had the single strain reliefs. I also went with distribution blocks rather than the ring post they had for the '-' I can't imaging how that passes code stacking 8!

My Master electrician friend was quite happy with the configuration! Makes me happy.

Lumisol · May 2017

While I find it humorous that some people choose to hit the disagree button on every post in this thread, it is my opinion and not all opinions are the same. Respect that fact and you may yet learn something. I would assume the combiner box is fine for a lot of people, I evidently have higher standards than those that think it's great because I find it lacking in a lot of areas and thought I should share my experience with others so someone else with the same expectations would not be similarly disappointed. I wish someone had pointed out the issues to me, it would have been enough to inspire me to fabricate my own solution and avoid the problems I encountered with this product.
If you read my review and thought I was too picky then the combiner may be a good fit for you and for what you expect from a product. If, on the other hand, you prefer to get the best designed and manufactured products available, you may want to avoid this one and it's shortcomings.
I have not compared all manufacturers offerings or all the products offered by them so I don't know if all premade combiner boxes are as poorly designed and built or if this is an anomaly. I am sure there are some good ones out there as I have used a lot of boxes from Square D and Siemens as well as other brands that were excellent products and any of those brands could easily be used to function as a combiner box quite easily, so it isn't a big stretch to imagine there are equally well made combiner boxes out there.

If you are happy with all the products you buy and never feel a need to build your own because you know it can be done better, this might be a good fit for you. If you look for products that are as good as you could build yourself, this will disappoint and require modifications.

Just wanted to get the information out there.
How you use it is up to you.

Photowhit · May 2017

Lumisol said:

.... If, on the other hand, you prefer to get the best designed and manufactured products available, you may want to avoid this one and it's shortcomings.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have not compared all manufacturers offerings...

I think the response is you are just crying and not offering better solutions.

You also took a box with a directed one use (with conduit or wire restraints) and already changed that use! (To pass through MC4 connectors). ...AND THEN YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT IT!!!

In grade school, I learned to never complain unless I had a suggestion for better options. Love to see your better options!

You might post your suggestions for change at the Midnite forum, they are actually pretty good at making changes to products, and customer service in general. I have a Magnum designed front Epanel and they found me a plain front for it, even though it was a E-panel they no longer make.

Indeed, boB and Ryan(?) and Robin have contributed here to help people and have even helped with Outback gear which they no longer work for. (though they may still own an interest in). They are good people and might welcome helpful design suggestions, but what you are doing is more bashing...

Lumisol · May 2017

That's utter nonsense my main complaints have nothing to do with the fact that I modified it for mc4 connectors, it has to do with the design and the implementation of that design and the materials that are used in the Box itself the rivets are too long the nutt was too thick and didn't fit onto the back flush and there were other issues that just didn't make sense to me that had absolutely nothing to do with mc4 connectors. I got the mc4 connectors to work without any problems so you can forget about that as the reason for my complaints.(Of course since this is a solar array combiner it would have made sense to make openings that would fit common solar array connectors as well as standard conduit sizes.)
The modifications that I made were not the issue with the box as I bought it they were the corrections for the issues that I found when I purchased it.
I'm simply stating my opinion I'm not bashing anything but you appear to be bashing my opinion which is your right, and I will fight for your right to do as you please because this is a free Nation but I disagree with what you're saying.

As for things they could have done: they could have used a thinner nut on the ground bus so that would sit flush and not poke out of the back. They could have had indents on the back so that the nuts holding the back pieces did not poke out but we're recessed and allowed it to be mounted flush. They could have moved the lower mounting point up higher in the Box and they could have left all the mounting points sealed (with knockouts) so that the person using it could open the ones that they needed to open. They could have used shorter rivets or better yet used flat head machine screws instead of rivets.
Of course all of these things would cut into their bottom line and so I don't expect any of them to be implemented; and now I expect you to tell me why they are not needed, but I did what you asked and I told you what I think they should have done to improve the design.

It really doesn't matter to me if you buy midnite products but don't expect me to buy them.

Photowhit · May 2017

Actually, I'll just point out you have not constructively read my post, You have NOT suggested a better option, you just continue to complain and you have placed here what you might recommend to Midnite as improvements...

Here's the Midnite forum;

http://midniteftp.com/forum/

Midnite is not opposed to making changes, after the classic was released several people mention how difficult it was to wire 4 gauge into the terminal, they changed the design making it more open and easier to attach. Somewhere here I have photos of the 2 designs.

I don't have a problem with posting that there was an issue with the box, Next time I'm at a venue where I can look at one I'll check it out, doubt the rivets are taller than the raised mounting points, as I said I have a box very likely designed by the same people (but at Outback) and the rivets don't rise above on it. The nuts is curious, and I'll check them out. The box is designed to mount and wire, not the other way around, it's a balance between size and space, obviously if the raised the mounting points they would have to re design where the bus bars are and likely make the box larger.

I would like them to provide 2 combs, one for breakers and one for fuses, but understand the reasoning. I checked out their prewired box, for MC4's, mounting is tight but manageable. Not sure I've ever dealt with a box that wasn't tight.

While you're at it don't buy Outback and maybe some Xantrex products, some of their designs are still around at both places! Designed for solar use, is still early in the field. Might make suggests to them.

Lumisol · May 2017

I have sent them the information and am waiting for a reply. I am willing to let them make things right if they choose to do so.
I will update this post if there is any new information to share.

Estragon · May 2017

Maybe the design has changed, or the 3 is different than the 6, but I just went and looked at my pair of 6s and they sit nice against the plywood backer, and I didn't file rivets or add washers. If I'd had to, I would have been in touch with them. I have to mickey mouse stuff enough as it is without having to mess with something that's meant to be purpose built.

Please do post anything you get from them.

Lumisol · May 2017

I also sent them this descriptive photo of the issues:

mcgivor · May 2017

@lumisol The damage negative comments about a product on a public forum are tremendous, you have to take into consideration Midnight more than likely use a pre manufactured box and installed the components, it probably is not a custom made piece of equipment. They send the product tu UL, if approved, it meets the criteria from a safty perspective. Any modification to the insalled wiring would render the approval null and void. The boxes with pre positioned knock outs and mounting holes are not the best, IMO, personally I prefer a back board with standoffs and no knockouts. If you weren't happy with the product there was always the opportunity to return it, that opportunity has passed. If you want a suit, go to Moors, if you want a tailored suit, go to a tailor, in this case you bought a suit.

Lumisol · May 2017

If I am a tailor, why not make my own suit?
All they installed are the 2 bus bars and the DIN rail. And they did a poor job of even that much.
It is advertised as a Solar Array Combiner Box. Sounds pretty purpose built to me. So why don't they fit the industry standard fittings that are on solar panels?
Why don't they sit flat on a surface without modifications?
If I buy a suit and have to cut in and line my own pockets, I'd feel the same way I do about this box.
They take the time to add their logo to the front of it though, that was important to them.

If they make it right I will be happy to update this post with how they fixed it for me, but I certainly don't expect that to happen.

Photowhit · May 2017

Just so you know I too followed up, their purpose built prewired box uses different MC4 connectors and while tight is certainly usable without changing mounting holes. This is their Prewired for MC4 connector box;

http://www.midnitesolar.com/productPhoto.php?product_ID=392&productCatName=Combiners - Pre-Wired&productCat_ID=35&sortOrder=2&act=p

FWIW - I'm more sympathetic since your photo of the rivets and nuts. I suspect you will hear back from them.

mcgivor · May 2017

Lumisol said:

If I am a tailor, why not make my own suit?
All they installed are the 2 bus bars and the DIN rail. And they did a poor job of even that much.
It is advertised as a Solar Array Combiner Box. Sounds pretty purpose built to me. So why don't they fit the industry standard fittings that are on solar panels?
Why don't they sit flat on a surface without modifications?
If I buy a suit and have to cut in and line my own pockets, I'd feel the same way I do about this box.
They take the time to add their logo to the front of it though, that was important to them.

If they make it right I will be happy to update this post with how they fixed it for me, but I certainly don't expect that to happen.

Actually I'm not disputing any of your claims, opinions or views, in fact I would be inclined to agree that there is room for improvement, based on your photos , perhaps contacting the manufacturer first would have been better than posting here before giving them a chance to rectify the issues. Personally I've never purchased anything made by Midnight, but reputation has it that they are a good company, who take care of their customers. The suit analogy was just saying the combiner was not custom made to your specifications so might not meet your expectations.

mmaritz · May 2017

As a new member of the forum I find this discussion very interesting and informative. I for one think consumers have a few choices (which we make ourselves). Companies can't make them for us:
1. Purchase a product unseen (and accept an issues or return for a refund) - eg. EBAY
2. Purchase seen and then have the ability to return if not happy (obviously item must be unused/modified)
3. Accept a product with any perceived (or even actual flaws). No mods needed
4. Accept a product and make it better (and void warranty).

All the above sit with us, so as much as products can be better (in our eyes) its our decision AND I believe we should be taking responsibility. We can make informed decisions and then need to live with them.

I feel for you @Lumisol and I agree with many of the points you make BUT it was your choice to keep and then modify to suit your needs. I'm sure Midnightsolar would have been happy to take back the product for a refund if you were not happy (within a reasonable timeframe).

Being a supplier/manufacturer can be tough in a competitive market especially since consumers have ALL the power (and I mean and believe ALL the power).

Regards
M

Lumisol · May 2017

Well, they have decided to not reply to or to offer any type of remedy for their poor quality and workmanship, which does not really surprise me. I really only did that because so many here were saying what a great company they are and how they stand behind their products so well. Their actions have proven that is simply not the case every time as in this case. I will be trashing this unit and building one that I know is done correctly as I should have done in the first place.
I will never again buy a product with the Midnite branding on it as I know what I can expect if I do, it will be second rate crap made by another manufacturer and re-branded to be sold at a higher price by them as this product was. It wouldn't be so bad if they at least inspected and made sure the products were being made properly, but, as has been illustrated in my pictures of the rear protrusions, this is not the case. The fact is that I can make better products myself by buying components and assembling them myself to a much higher standard than they sell and never have to deal with their poorly build products and terrible customer service again.
That alone is well worth the cost of the trash I paid for from them.
Of course you are free to disagree if you choose, but you cannot disagree with the facts in this case as I have stated them:

There are issues that make the product unusable for my standards.
They chose not to acknowledge and fix the issues or offer any type of remedy.
I can and will do the same job a lot better than they did.
I will never again buy any of their overpriced under-engineered trash products.

Estragon · May 2017

When and if you make a better product, I will happily buy it.

mmaritz · May 2017

Lumisol said: The fact is that I can make better products myself by buying components and assembling them myself to a much higher standard than they sell and never have to deal with their poorly build products and terrible customer service again.
That alone is well worth the cost of the trash I paid for from them.

I fail to undertand why you did not send the product back for a refund if you felt this way. You would not have been in this position and feeling this way.

Vic · May 2017

Hello Lumi..,

May I ask the method that you used in trying to contact MidNite Solar?

If it was e-mail, what address did you use?

Thanks! Vic

Lumisol · May 2017

I will not be selling any products I make. I have never sold any products I make with the single exception of a cap lining machine I made to sell to a bottling company a few years back so I could retire.
When I make something now, I am the only one that enjoys the fruits of my labor.

I just wanted to see if the store bought solutions were any good. I found out.

Vic · June 2017

Hi Lumisol,

When you were unable to tell us how and where you send your concerns to MidNite Solar, I pinged an Administrator on the MidNite Forum, where Principals and Founders of MidNite Solar are active (I am a member on the Forum).

The following is a response to the primary issues that you seem to have with the MNPV-3:

"Dear Lumisol, I am sorry you are so disappointed with our MNPV3 combiner. I can't comment on all of your concerns here. There were so many, I can't remember them all.
1. This is a custom enclosure designed and manufactured by MidNite Solar, not a third party box.
2. The MNPV3 is designed for MC4 connectors. Did you not notice the 1/2" diameter knockouts in the middle of the 7/8" knockouts? I can see them on the sides in your picture, so I will assume they were there on the bottom also just like the hundreds of thousands we have produced.
3. the connector you used has a very long protrusion inside the box. That is not a standard MC4 connector. The real Multi Contact connectors we use fit fine with no interference with the mounting holes. Someone posted a picture of the pre-wired units we make for your review.
4. Painting the insides of a knockout hole on an aluminum box is just weird. Ask any electrician. Nobody does is as it is unnecessary.
5. The MNPV6 and MNPV3 are the bestselling combiner boxes in the world. We get NO complaints about anything. That is probably why we sell so many. We pretty much got it right according to others.
6. I see the screws do protrude down below the mounting holes. Screws do have tolerances as well as punched mounting feet. So? This is not a real problem, just mount the box and don't worry about these small tolerances. Nothing bad happens. It is not a problem (well, not a problem for anyone who has ever purchased one of these before you). The rivets do not protrude lower than the mounting feet. I feel you are just trying to find something to complain about here. OK, you win on this one, but it is still a non issue to anyone but you.
7. The knockouts are placed exactly where our customers want them. I am talking about professional installers that have been using them day in and day out for over ten years. If they had a problem with placement or size, we would look at changing them. We cannot however accommodate every do it yourselfer that has different ideas about how to do things. That just isn't possible.
8. We have the best tech support in the industry. I do not know how you attempted to contact us. We do respond to issues. Unfortunately there would be little we could do about your issues since the product is fine.
9. Please make your own boxes in the future. We don't mind.
10. Thanks to all of you who are familiar with MidNite Solar and our products and had nice things to say about us.

Thanks,
Robin Gudgel
President
MidNite Solar"

Luisol, I (Vic) am not an employee of MidNite Solar, just a very happy customer.

MidNite's President has been active on this Forum, but was unable to log on, so I was asked to please post his message to you.

Thanks, Vic

Why I do not recommend the Midnite Array Combiner (MNPV3)

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