Best system
Comments
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The question should be, I have a load of X watts for X hours per day, you're putting the cart in front of the horse, backwards engendered systems are the wrong approach, with all due respect. Best to state the loads first and build to suit.1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS
Second system 1890W 3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding. -
I have calculated loads and they will be more than this system can handle...so I'm trying to optimize what I have available to get the most power I can and then adjust my loads accordingly...
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The battery bank voltage does not really affect "efficiency" that much... It is much more based on your peak wattage (loads), Watt*Hours (or Amp*Hours at what voltage), battery bank AH capacity (at what voltage), etc.
Roughly, if your AC (or DC) loads are over ~1,200 to 1,800 Watts continuous, or your battery bank is >~800 AH, you might think about going to 24 volts.
If your AC loads are small--I.e., around 300 Watts max continuous, a 12 volt MorningStar TSW AC inverter is hard to beat. Reliable, and has remote on/off + low power "search mode".
And you need to look at your solar array size too... 5x 335 Watt panels:- 5 * 335 Watt panels * 0.77 panel+controller derating * 1/14.5 volts charging = 89 Amps solar charging current
You also need to look at the Vmp of the solar panel... Yours appear to be Vmp~37.7 volts. That would work well with a 12 volt battery bank and an MPPT charge controller (down converts from 37 volts to ~14.x volts for efficient energy conversion). Running a 24 volt battery bank, 37.7 volts Vmp would be fine with PWM type charge controllers (get two x 60 Amp). Optimally, you would would be looking at Vmp array with 2 panels in series (Vmp~74 volts), however, you have room for 5 panels. This means that you either need 6 or 4 panel array (if you use MPPT controller and 24 volt battery bank).
You can get away (possibly) with 5 of those panels in parallel for 24 volt VDC and MPPT controller--It is just less than ideal (i.e., if you are camping in the desert, Vmp-hot can be down near 0.80*37.7volts=30.2 volts--Very near the battery charging voltage of ~29.x volts--Not accounting for MPPT controller and wiring voltage drop).
You have to verify the Vmp of your panels... The same vendor makes very similar panels with Vmp~30 volts--Those panels are not good for charging a 24 volt battery bank with one panel in series strings (too low of charging voltage for 24 volt battery bank when panels are in normal operating conditions--Vmp falls as the panels get hot).
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Bill...you are so knowledgeable!!! I would rather do a 12 volt system and then replace some of my 120 VAC load appliances with 12 VDC load appliances, wherever possible, to "fit more" into my system...
According to tables I have seen...I will average about 4 hours of sun on the Jersey Shore year round...
I am looking at this charge controller from Midnite Solar https://www.wholesalesolar.com/3900141/midnite-solar/charge-controllers/midnite-solar-classic-150-mppt-charge-controller
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The Midnite Classic 150 is a very popular and versitile charge controller. Just make sure you install it (and any charge controller) in a space with good air circulation (5%*1,500 watts = 75 Watts of heat). Also, Midnite Classics (and many other brands/models) have fairly noisy fans in them--Do not install them in a room, space, or office that is occupied during the day.
You might also take a look at our host's website (forum is open to all--I do not work for NAWS, just a volunteer here):
http://solar-electric.com/
Location matters--As what season(s) you will be using the RV. For example if you mount the array at a ~40 degree angel (from horizontal):
http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.htmlToms River
Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 50° angle from vertical:
Average Solar Insolation figures
(For best year-round performance)
If you mount flat to roof (typical RV mounting):Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun 3.16
3.83
4.40
4.65
4.81
4.96
Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 4.96
4.84
4.69
4.25
3.23
2.87
Toms River
Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a horizontal surface:
Average Solar Insolation figures
If you do winter camping, flat mounts in the "closer to pole" regions, will cost you a lot of solar energy.Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun 1.92
2.71
3.69
4.57
5.22
5.61
Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec 5.51
4.97
4.15
3.13
2.07
1.66
In general, I really like using a 120 VAC inverter (right tools for the right jobs). Understand that a 12 volt battery bank can run from ~10.5 volts (discharged battery under heavy load+voltage drops) to >15.0 volts.... Many "12 volt" appliances and adapters do not like that wide of voltage range (the MorningStar only works to ~15.0 volts--Would have been better if >16.0 volts when equalizing your battery bank).
Keeping your loads "small and efficient" will really help extend your solar power without spending a bunch of money. 300 Watts will run a bunch of small/efficient AC loads (LED lighting, cell phone chargers, laptop computers, etc.). And leave the 12 VDC for the RV Water Pump, 12 VDC LED lighting, and other small DC loads that are not worth converting to AC.
Just to give you an idea of how much energy a properly designed system can output (long term average--Day to day weather will vary).- 5 * 335 Watt panels * 0.52 off grid AC system eff * 4.0 hours of sun per day = 3,484 Watt*Hours per day
There are a lot of "gotcha points" when designing your off grid power system. I really like to design a "balanced" systems... Basically, design the battery bank to support your power needs, then the solar array (and backup genset, if needed), to keep the battery bank happy.
In general, do not do things that push the limits. Yes, you can buy a 4kW 12 Volt AC inverter and connect it to 4x 6 volt @ 200 AH batteries, and 400 Watts of solar panels--But for the long term, it is not a very capable system (4x golf cart batteries would, reliably, support around a 1,000 Watt maximum AC inverter. A 4,000 Watt inverter may take 20-40 Watts just to "turn on"--More wasted power).
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Would this be a good inverter or is 1500 watts too much? https://www.wholesalesolar.com/2923510/cotek/inverters/cotek-sp1500-112-inverter
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What is your battery bank? For a 12 volt battery bank, I would suggest the minimum size to support a 1,500 Watt AC inverter would be around ~600 AH @ 12 volts minimum (for example 2x series * 6 volt @ 200 AH flooded cell golf cart batteries by 3x parallel strings).
That should be a good AC inverter (Cotek seems to be a good middle of the road AC inverter--I am not in the solar business, others here can speak to their experiences). I like that it works to ~16.5 VDC on the input.
Do you need 1,500 Watts? It takes 1.8 amps * 12 volts (~22 Watts) just to turn on. The MorningStar takes ~6 watts.
Some folks have two inverters, one large one for daytime loads, and a second small one for smaller night time/off peak loads.
The wiring for a 1,500 Watt inverter:- 1,500 Watt * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1.25 NEC wiring+breaker derating * 1/10.5 volts minimum = 210 Amp minimum rated branch wiring and breaker... Doable--Just need heavy wiring+breaker to keep voltage drops down.
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset - 1,500 Watt * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1.25 NEC wiring+breaker derating * 1/10.5 volts minimum = 210 Amp minimum rated branch wiring and breaker... Doable--Just need heavy wiring+breaker to keep voltage drops down.
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I am looking at purchasing 3 of these 200 ah 12 volt batteries for a total of 600 ah...but I would only use 40-60% of the juice depending on the day
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/56353/BAT-UB4DAGML4.html
and would either of these be better as an inverter?
1000W: https://www.wholesalesolar.com/2923507/cotek/inverters/cotek-sp1000-112-inverter
700W: https://www.wholesalesolar.com/2923504/cotek/inverters/cotek-sp700-112-inverter -
The vendor says they are for starting batteries--Does not say anything about deep cycle applications.
For various reasons, I really do not like paralleling 12 volt batteries into 12 volt banks--2x 6 volt batteries makes it easier to do a quick check on the health of the batteries (i.e., you can measure 6 volts across each battery and see if they are high/low during charging and discharging. Measuring across 12 volt batteries in parallel just gives you the "bank voltage", not the individual battery voltage). A DC Current Clamp meter does make things easier--You can verify that each battery (or string of batteries) is properly supplying current and taking charging current (open/shorted cell detection, bad wiring, etc.).
AGM Batteries are nice Lead Acid batteries (cleaner, higher surge current). They tend to be a bit sensitive to over voltage during charging. Also, they tend to have a bit shorter life than equal cost flooded cell batteries. And AGM usually cost more.
If this is your first bank--Flooded Cell batteries are nice because you can use a hydrometer to check state of charge/overall health of the battery bank. AGMs are sealed batteries and a bit harder to estimate capacity/state of charge.
Many people "murder" their first battery bank or two--Using cheaper batteries can be a better solution.
For example, here is a 6 volt @ 250 AH AGM deep cycle battery (a couple people here have said Fullriver seems to work well for them):
https://www.solar-electric.com/fullriver-dc250-6-agm-sealed-battery-6v-250ah.html
It is much more expensive than the battery you linked too--May be too pricey for your needs. Talk with your battery vendor(s) about their batteries and see if they warranty them for Deep Cycle / Off Grid solar use (many good quality AGM batteries are for starting/UPS usage--Not deep cycling).
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Sizing the inverter is really a case of using the right tool for the job.
Before I got into solar, I put a 2000w 12v inverter/charger in my boat on a house bank of 2x6v golf cart batteries for ~220ah. It was sized so the Admiral could microwave milk for coffee foam. As MSW inverter, it wasn't even all that fit for pupose, as even though small, the microwave draws too much for the batteries and square wave inverter. It works, but not well. As it happens, the Admiral figured out how to make better foam on the gas stove anyway, so the inverter is rarely used.
The point is that it's important to define loads and understand the trade-offs to get a system that works for you.Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
This is the Description form the battery website (the last word is Solar, so I thought this was a good one):
Description
Premium quality absorbed glass mat technology (AGM) is ideal for ATVs, motorcycles, personal watercraft, and snowmobiles. The Adventure Power AGM Battery was designed for more than performance; it was designed for the enthusiast with more cranking power than our competitors' same sized battery. Adventure Power batteries are completely spill proof and leakproof. Frequent replacement and high maintenance are over! A one year warranty is also included for your peace of mind. The key to this technology is the porous microfiber separators, which completely absorb and trap electrolyte. Molded top and side connection terminals provide versatility, increased strength and durability. The Adventure Power AGM Battery provides the most power and best value in the industry. Primary Applications: ATV, Marine, RV, Solar.
My biggest concern with Lead Acid is off-gassing...then there is venting needed etc...also they need monthly maintenance ...seems like the AGM is plug in and leave alone... Am I wrong?
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The description sounds like starting battery to me.
The difference is in the plate design. Starting batteries have thin plates with a large surface area for more contact with acid. This allows them to supply high currents for brief periods, but they won't last long if deeply discharged. A deep cycle battery has thicker plates to supply less current but for a longer time. Starting batteries are rated by cranking amps. Deep cycle by amp-hours, often at a 20hr rate of discharge.
Both deep cycle and starting batteries can be found in flooded and AGM form. There are pros and cons to each.
AGM don't *normally* vent gas, but if they can if overcharged. If this happens, there is no way to add back, and the battery may be done for. AGM have low rates of self-discharge, which may be important if the battery will sit with no float charge for long periods (months) at a time. They tend to be about 2x the price of flooded on a watt-hour basis, and may not last as long.
Flooded are easier to get an accurate state of charge by measuring specific gravity, and can have water added to replace gassing losses. They can take a controlled overcharge if needed to partially reverse the sulfation that eventually happens in deep cycle use. Most AGMs can't.Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
And some end of life/failure modes for AGM (and other Lead Acid Sealed Batteries)--They will vent hydrogen+oxygen gasses and electrolyte (there is a catalyst in many sealed batteries to recombine hydrogen+oxygen--But the catalyst does have a limited life and will eventually wear out. And over voltage/charging will generate a lot of gasses, and can overheat the catalyst to failure--And venting).
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
It's so much to think about!!!! The Solar Part of this Trailer to RV conversion is by far the most difficult for me!!!
SO MANY VARIABLES!!!!
OK...so my local Batteries Plus sells these Lead Acid Batteries that seem like a good choice:
https://www.batteriesplus.com/battery/rv/deep-cycle/6/sligc110
I would buy 6 of them for (3) 12 V batteries and 645 ah...
please advise!!! -
It would really help us simplify things if you could give us an idea of your loads. I get that you'll adjust to what you have available, but maybe at least a list of "gotta run" stuff, and "can live without if need be stuff". If we know the highest current draw and total wattage daily, we can balance the rest of the system from that.
Those batteries are probably a good choice.Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
These are my expected Loads measures in Watts
Watts Air conditioner 455 per hour Dish Washer 435 per hour (1.5 hours run time) X-Box 195 per hour Box Fan 175 per hour Coffee Maker 150 for 10 minutes Led Light Strip 120 per hour Microwave 80 if used for 5 minutes TV 55 per hour Toaster 55 if used for 3 minutes Refridgerator 35 per hour Water Pump 30 if used for 15 minutes Dish Network 30 per hour Blender 10 if used for 2 minutes 1825 -
Those numbers do not make a lot of sense... More likely:
Air conditioner 1,000 Watts > 1,000w * 0.5 duty cycle * 8 hours per day = 4,000 WH per day
Dish Washer 435 Watts (maybe 1,500 Watts peak) > 435w * 1.5 hours run time = 653 WH
X-Box 195 Watts > 195w * 5 hours playing = 975 WH
Box Fan 175 Watts > 175w * 8 hours = 875 WH
Coffee Maker 900 Watts > 900w * 1/6 hour = 150 WH
Led Light Strip 10 Watts > 10 Watts * 4 hours = 40 WH
Microwave 900 Watts > 900 Watts * 1/15 hour = 60 WH
TV 55 Watts > 55w * (5 hours + 5 hours Dish) = 550 WH
Toaster 900 Watts > 900 Watts * 1/20 hour = 45 WH
Refrigerator 120 Watts (600+ VA starting, defrosting) > 120 Watts * 0.5 duty cycle * 24 hours per day = 1,440 WH
Water Pump 300 Watts > 300 Watts * 1/4 hour per day = 75 WH
Dish Network 30 Watts > 30 Watts * 5 hours per day = 150 WH
Blender 800 Watts > 800 Watts * 1/30 hour per day = 37 WH
This would probably be a way to large of system for off grid use (many $10,000s of dollars worth of hardware).
Just to give you an idea... Guess that your solar power costs you $1 per 1,000 WH. Using the above (guesses), your power per day would be:
A/C $4 per day
Dish Washer $0.65
X-Box $0.98
Box Fan $0.88
Coffee Maker $0.15
LED strip $0.04
Microwave $0.06
TV $0.55
Toaster $0.05
Fridge $1.44
Dish $0.15
Blender $0.04
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$8.99 per day or ~$269.70 per month (or as high as $2.000 per 1,000 WH or ~$540 per month--And you have to pay 5-10 years worth of power "up front"--12 months * 7 years * $269.70 per month = $22,654.80 to ~ $45,000 for hardware costs)
The realistic costs of solar power are probably $0.50 to $2.00+ per kWH. If you are really good at getting deals, install it yourself, and use most of the energy generated every day (365 days per year), you may get down to $0.50 per 1,000 WH. If you are there weekends/seasonally, or have large summer loads and light winter loads, you may be $2.00 per 1,000 WH (per 1 kWH).
Also note that heavy loads also mean a large battery bank and AC inverter to run them. To run a microwave may not use much energy (WH) per day, but you still spend money on large inverter + battery bank.
Realistically, you do not have all loads turned on at the same time for a small to medium sized home.
Going off grid solar--You have to have to have a completely different attitude about your energy usage. Your $54 per month utility bill becomes something like $270 to $540 per month bill if you do not cut way back on your power usage (conservation).
The A/C system, Refrigerator, Entertainment, and Box fan would be (my guesses) be your largest energy consumers. And where you should start looking at how much you really need them. And if you really do need 120 Watt * 12 hours per night LED Strip Lighting, then that is like adding a second refrigerator (another $1.44 per day).
And if you really want to run all loads at the same time (A/C, toaster, microwave, fridge, blender, water pump) at the same time--Then you need very large Inverter (4,000 watt or larger) and a 400 AH @ 48 volt battery bank (or larger).
Don't get wrapped up in picking (and buying) solar equipment yet--That is putting the cart before the horse. Get a better understanding of your loads (energy needs) and your budget. Energy usage is a highly personal set of choices. What works for me may not work for you. If you need a large system, and have the available cash to build it--That is fine. We just want you to understand the trade-offs with solar power systems.
Get a Kill-a-Watt meter or similar to measure your AC power loads and see what your proposed devices really draw.
https://www.solar-electric.com/kiacpomome.html
-Bill
Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
I got most of the loads from the literature for each appliance or from https://www.wattdoesituse.com/
I know my loads are way too high and will have to cut back...I also know how much room I have for Solar on the roof of my trailer which is enough for the (5) 335 watt panels I spoke of earlier...so based on that I want to design a system that offers the most wattage output I can get...then I would decide on what appliances I can "live without"...which unfortunately seems like ALOT!!! -
I know numbers are hard to figure out with out having things running,
I have had 2 of the Sears/Kenmore 5300 btu energy star window air conditioners(I didn't see them at sears any longer, I'm sure better ones are made today). They use right around the 455-475 watts an hour. If this is a trailer you are converting, be sure to spend the time and money to make it well insulated! I don't know if it's feasible to air condition a trailer than must sit in the sun. Mine cooled my 10x16 very well insulated (6" in the walls 8 in floor, & roof)cabin long enough for me to sleep.
This was parked in the shade with about 1600 watts of panels in the sun. I ran a small fridge as well. I originally had it set up with 920 watts of array. Working 2nd shift, I had it come on an hour before I came home and it would cool the place down then put it on timer to shut down in 3 hours. If I woke and was warm during the night I would let it run for another hour. We do tend to cool off at night in Missouri though.
I added the extra panels to extend my run time during the day when the batteries were topped off and to turn my fridge back on, I would shut it off during the summer...
I ran the window air off a 1400 watt inverter, later buying a 1800 watt inverter, It would run my 8-900 watt microwave as well, but not at the same time as any major appliance.
A thought to increase your solar array size would be to mount panels to the side of your trailer hinged so they could be raised like a mini awning and lowered for travel.
I added this just for a little encouragement, It will not be very easy to do! and with the trailer in the sun, air conditioning would be more difficult.
Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
If you want to try this, consider flooded lead acid batteries, they are generally more forgiving, you could create a battery box on the tongue of your trailer, and have your charge controller (in a separate box) there too, This would solve any worry about them out gassing and even raise them for easier maintenance. While I did this with 4 golf cart batteries, they are really too small for the loads, My run time off the batteries was limited. I would consider 4 - L-16 size batteries. Though for the price difference I might give 4 (or even 6 w/12volt system) golf cart batteries a shot.
I was running a 24 volt system, there are some advantages for a 12 volt system, but I think 24 volt system would be a better fit for most people.
Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
That list of loads really helps. As Bill and Photowhit note, "normal" grid tied use of all these loads would need a pretty big pv system for a house/cabin. To do it with the space you have available is impossible.
This means making some trade-offs. One is a willingness to use a generator for some loads and charging. You could run the generator and air conditioning, maybe the dishwasher etc too, for a while in the morning, for instance, to get the space cooled and charge batteries to ~75% and let solar finish charging and support the smaller loads. That way, you can use a reasonable sized inverter and bank for evening and night use.
Insulating is much better than trying to cool through batteries and inverter. By adding insulation to my cabin, I don't really need air at all if the nights get somewhat cool. Even with muggy hot nights, a couple of hours would cool enough for the day.
With say 700ah@12v (or 350@24v) in cooler weather you may not have to run the generator much at all. In really hot weather you might have to run a couple time per day. Unless you have 12v loads, or think a big+small inverter system makes sense for you, 24v probably makes more sense. 1500w inverter should support loads, but not all at once. If you were running the air or microwave and the fridge kicked on, the inverter may complain or shut down.
Your 5 panels will likely produce about 25a@24v, which is a bit low for a 350ah bank, but workable with generator support. You would want a generator in the 3000w range. I think Honda makes a nice luggable 3kw inverter type generator.Off-grid.
Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter -
I forgot to mention, the inflated dishwasher number (do you really need a dish washer?) is due to the heating element, if you scrap and rinse your dishes, you can likely just run room temp water or hot water if you have a LP water heater.Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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