Comparing Mono & Polycrystalline Panels output based on the lowest months irradiance

Options
Rayson
Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
It is claimed that there can be little practical difference between the two types of Panels with verified rated outputs.
The price can also be very similar. If we ignore quality and reliability.

Yearly output could be higher for one type over the other.
Obviously, if this additional energy lowers your yearly bill or offers other benefits the decision might be pretty easy.

Are Monocrystalline or polycrystaline solar panels better

http://mcelectrical.com.au/uncategorized/monocrystalline-polycrystaline-solar-panels-better/
Scroll to: What is temperature coefficient?
& The Temperature coefficient myth busted
--

Off-grid Fixed Load

I am using the City of Broken Hill in Australia for an example, for those who are not familiar it is semi desert with hot summer days up to 45C and winter morning frosts.

Lowest Solar Irradiance in Winter at angle of 43° is 4.78 kWh/m2/day in June (Australia)
Highest
Solar Irradiance in Summer at angle of 73° is 7.30 kWh/m2/day in January (Australia)
---------------------

When the Load is fixed with normal Storage calculation to cover bad weather, the Panel would be chosen for Lowest Solar Irradiance in Winter. http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

It seems there could be little difference between "mono or polycrysatlline" for an application with fixed load other then price.

Have I missed anything, or got something wrong?

Ray.

Comments

  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #2
    Options
    Can someone help with the Panel/Battery requirements and calculations for two extreme scenarios?

    Fixed Conditions.
    The Broken Hill area doesn't receive much rain
    Lowest Solar Irradiance in Winter at angle of 43° is 4.78 kWh/m2/day in June (Australia)
    Fixed Load:
    48v 227W for 12 hrs per day (direct from Battery Bank).
    Solar Panels: 36v @Maximum Power. (Example)

    I planned to use 3 Panels in series, thinking:
    The higher voltage will maintain charging in lower light conditions.
    Buck Chargers are generally more simple, efficient and reliable. 

    Scenario 1/ All Load is drawn during day from 6AM to 6PM.
    Scenario 2/ All Load is drawn during night from 6PM to 6AM.

    I have seen various calculators that include fixed variables such as 240v appliances or using the Company products.
    Lowest Solar Irradiance in kWh/m2/day negates the need to input Sunlight Hours.
    Some just add 20-25% to cover all losses before calculations?
    Not having done this before, the correct mythology for calculations is not clear.

    How is this irradiance figure used in calculations for 48v fixed load?
    Just keep in mind, there is no inverter or output regulation, we are just looking at the Panels and 48v Bank.

    Thanks,
    Ray
    --

    Edit: I found this reply from Bill, just saving the page for a read.
    200 watt solar wiring
    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/comment/365837/#Comment_365837

    Here are the figures I got using the reply for Battery and Panel Size.

    2 Days with no sun, 50% battery discharge
    Battery bank is ~4x your daily load.
    4.725A x 12hrs = 56.7A
    X4 = 226.8A Battery Bank

    1 Day with no sun, 50% battery discharge
    Battery bank is ~2x your daily load.
    4.725A x 12hrs = 56.7A
    X2 = 113.4A Battery Bank

    2724 WH per day * 1/4.78 hours of sun in June = 570 Watts of Solar array.
    What voltage is the Panel wattage based on, 3 panels in series @108v?

    How did I go, any errors?








  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Options
    Ray,

    Here is the estimated sun for your area using PV Watts and 43 degree tilt:

    http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php

    MonthSolar Radiation
    ( kWh / m2 / day )
    January6.32
    February6.75
    March6.43
    April5.96
    May4.51
    June4.40
    July3.95
    August4.96
    September5.63
    October6.03
    November6.32
    December6.38
    Annual5.64

    Your power needs:
    • 227 Watts * 12 hours per day 2,724 Watt*Hours per day
    Note--Your loads may be voltage dependent. I.e., during charging, your batteries will be at ~58-60 volts during the day--And can even be as high as ~62 volts during equalization/very cold weather. If your load is an AC inverter--They are a "constant power" load... I.e., follows Power=Voltage*Current. As the voltage rises, the current draw actually falls.

    2.7 kWH per day is not a big load. However, you do have to decide if you will turn off the loads during bad weather (very sunny area on average), will use a genset, or you want to oversize the array to minimize genset as much as possible. If this is your "base load"--You should plan on only using ~65% to 75% of your system's predicted output--Or 1/0.75 to 1/0.65 "oversizing" of your array:
    • 2,724 Watt*Hours per day * 1/0.65 oversizing to support base loads = 4,191 WH per day base load oversize
    Battery bank supplying base load for 1-3 days of no sun--2 days seems to be a good cost/performance pick. 50% maximum discharge:
    • 2,724 WH per day * 1/48 volt battery bank * 2 days storage * 1/0.50 max discharge = 227 AH @ 48 volt battery bank
    You have not talked about the loads here--Surging loads (like starting a well pump) can affect the sizing of the battery bank (also, AC inverter losses, inverter running 12 hour vs 24 hour per day, etc.).

    Running loads during daytime vs night time... If you run the loads during the day, the batteries are not cycled very deeply (just during early/late during the day). This can help them last longer. However--The daytime loads take energy directly from the solar array and reduce charging current (i.e., a day or two of bad weather recharging can take longer to bring the battery bank backup). If you run the loads during the day, you still want to see ~5% to 13% minimum rate of charge available during the day. However, if you are planning on oversizing the array to reduce genset usage (and solar panels are at historically cheap prices)--This may not be a big issue. Sizing the array to your battery bank (larger battery bank "needs" a larger solar array):
    • 227 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.05 rate of charge = 870 Watt array minimum
    • 227 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.10 rate of charge = 1,739 Watt array nominal
    • 227 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.13 rate of charge = 2,261 Watt array "cost effective" maximum
    If you plan on using power during day--Then "adding" to the array above:
    • 227 Watt load * 1/0.77 panel+controller dratings = 295 Watt "additional" solar array to support daytime load+charging
    And then sizing the array based on your amount of sun (and loads). If you have more than 3-4 "hours per day" of sun during the winter--It is very easy to size the system for the amount of loads during winter without needing a genset (other than possible stormy weather). Assuming this is a "required" daily base load (cannot drop usage during bad weather), and a "pretty large" base load derating of 65% (just another "fudge factor"):
    • 4,191 WH per day (base load upsizing) * 1/0.61 typical DC system eff * 1/3.95 hours of sun (July) average = 1,739 Watt array "oversized" for reliable base load supply
    Plus ~295 Watt "extra" array/solar panels if you run loads during the daytime (loads+battery charging).

    This is a pretty "massively" over sized system (solar array) because of the 65% base load / minimize any genset runtime. During summer this thing will produce much more power than you will need on average:
    • 1,739 Watt array (+295 Watt daytime charging???) * 0.61 panel+controller derating * 6.0 nominal non-winter sun = 6,365 Watt*Hours per non-winter nominal day
    The next issue is the voltage rating of the solar array... You say you have 36 volt panels... We need to make sure that these are Vmp~36 volts. This voltage rated panel is around--But many panels are Vmp~30 volt rated. Your array should be a minimum of Vmp~72 volts (2x 36 volt or 3x 30 volt panels in series).

    And the maximum Vmp-array (cold weather Voc panel voltage) depends on the brand/model of MPPT charge controller. The typical Outback/Schneider/Midnite/etc. 140-150 VDC max input controller would have Vmp~array of ~100 VDC maximum (where you may have sub freezing weather).

    Because you are in a very sunny region (even during winter)--A 1,739 Watt array will certainly work well. If you are OK with using a genset during bad weather/deep winter (or turn off loads during these times), you could possible go with as low as a 870 Watt array (or 870+295 Watt array for daytime loads). And see how it works out (add panels later?).

    These days, with panels being relatively cheap (Australia, perhaps not so cheap)--Over paneling will save you on battery cycling and genset+fuel usage. Also, you will be spending much less time (during bad weather) "managing" your system (loads, genset, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #4
    Options
    I will pick questions out and try to cover them:

    Don't worry about calculating or allowing for any inverter.
    Don't worry about surge currents.

    The Load are 48 to 36v DC Buck converters,
    with Maximum input of 56v DC. The over voltage was envisaged,
    but I also considered the Bank voltage should be below 56v under load?
    Cross that bridge later.

    Your reply is welcome, but spinning my head.
    Using the minimum Solar Irradiance to find a ball park figure would surface.
    Sub freezing whether during sunshine hours doesn't happen here :)

    The Panel example was 36 Vmp.
    Yes, 3 Panels in Series for 108v.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Quote: Your array should be a minimum of Vmp~72 volts (2x 36 volt or 3x 30 volt panels in series).

    And the maximum Vmp-array (cold weather Voc panel voltage) depends on the brand/model of MPPT charge controller. The typical Outback/Schneider/Midnite/etc. 140-150 VDC max input controller would have Vmp~array of ~100 VDC maximum (where you may have sub freezing weather).:End Quote

    Bit slow to read this, I see!
    So putting 3x 36v Panels in series is not possible, at least in the common MPPT?
    2x 36 or 72v seems low for 48v from standpoint of low light charging and resistive loss, do you understand 108v to be unsuitable or just less common for 48v bank. Not saying I know anything, just an interesting area!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    We will just look at discharge during night hours to keep it simple.

    I have used PVWatts in the past, note that it uses reading from "Mildura in the State of Victora, Australia" how or if this information is extrapolated is not clear? Broken Hill is in the State of New South Wales, Australia.
    Edit: I tested PVWatts for Mildura, and the Solar Radiation readings you got are also from Mildura.

    Just to confuse matters further, the Solar Irradiance Calculator at:
    http://www.solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html
    uses the angle fixed by the Location, and it is wrong, hence 43 degree tilt is wrong.
    Edit: I believe this uses local data. Everything is upside down here  o:)

    The angle can be calculated but not entered into Solarelectricityhandbook  Irradiance Calculator!

    Optimum Tilt of Solar Panels by Month

    Figures shown in degrees from vertical

    Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun
    74°
     
    66°
     
    58°
     
    50°
     
    42°
     
    34°
     
    Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
    42°
     
    50°
     
    58°
     
    66°
     
    74°
     
    82°

     Winter 34°

    ---------------------------------

    I would like to simplify things a bit, just to get a very rough starting point.
    You mention Generator which we have no plans for, but here is an alternative option.

    Lets say your had this Generator that automatically kicks in with cloud or rain, in such case a system would not need Battery storage reserve. Of course this is not a real situation, but to help explain my idea, which is similar.

    Slightly different situation, what if we reduce the daily load to 33% on cloudy mid winter days, in order to reduce the 3 day reserve to 1.
    Not conventional, but easily done.

    Hopefully this will make sense,
    Ray




  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Options
    Regarding panel tilt... The solarelectrichandbook does the angle measurement from "vertical".

    The PV Watts program (and most people) do the measurement from horizontal.

    So, 34 degrees from vertical would map to (90-34=) 56 degrees from horizontal with PV Watts.

    DC to DC converters are similar to AC inverter in day to day operation (constant power devices--Although, there are different designs for DC converter control circuits--And other operational modes are possible).

    56 volts charging voltage (aka 14.0 volts for a "12 volt" battery bank). That is a pretty low charging voltage for a deep cycle flooded cell battery (typically ~14.4 volts for AGM and ~14.75 volts or so for flooded cell). And that is at ~25 C -- Room temperature. As batteries get colder (for cold climates/outdoor banks), the charging voltage will increase at ~ 5mV per degree C per Cell under ~25C. (24 cells for a 48 volt bank or 24*5mV=0.120 volts per degree C for your bank).

    For a 48 volt system--Your "loads" should be able to take at least 60 VDC (ideally >62 VDC) for charging (and equalization).

    PV Watts uses (I think) a combination of latitude (physical/seasonal solar position). And the local weather (PV Watts picked the location as "closest" (or similar) to your location's weather) to estimate your location's "hours of sun".

    Many MPPT charge controller mfgs. have online string calculator tools to help ensure that the solar panels (and their series/parallel wiring) will be appropriate for their controller (and "worst case" weather conditions).

    For various reasons, I would highly suggest that you use 2 days of storage and 50% maximum discharge. If you discharge a battery to 50% state of charge daily--At 10% rate of charge it will take ~8-10 hours of charging to fully recharge. And with solar, it is difficult to get that many hours of "usable sun" from solar. Although, you can use a physical tracker to get more charging time during the day, or a split array, one half pointing North East, and the other pointing North West.

    Automated Gensets--If you can avoid the requirement and operate it manually--I would highly suggest that. The more you automate your system, the more things that can go wrong.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Options
    A couple of quick comments.

    1. Charging voltages will likely be higher than 56v, especially if batteries are cool.

    2. Midnite Classic controllers can be overvoltaged to a degree. I have 30odd volt panels in strings of 3 on classic 150s. Could maybe even go to 4 but it gets pretty cold (currently -24C). The controller goes into a standby mode over 150v which protects it in case of a really cold panel at dawn. They also have 200 & 250v models if you need long wire runs from array.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Options

    Thanks Bill, the basics behind your thinking is spot on.
    Perhaps I was typing as you replied or you are not interested?

    We have no interest in a Generator etc.

    This is a good start,
    Thanks mate

  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #8
    Options
    Estragon said:
    A couple of quick comments.

    1. Charging voltages will likely be higher than 56v, especially if batteries are cool.

    2. Midnite Classic controllers can be overvoltaged to a degree. I have 30odd volt panels in strings of 3 on classic 150s. Could maybe even go to 4 but it gets pretty cold (currently -24C).
    Charge voltage: This will require some work later.

    No idea on controllers so will need to look into them.
    If the Midnite Classic can handle 110v @ 10C we should have options.

    Their sizing tool OK's the voltage.
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php

    Let me know if you hear of a Charger to handle the above.

    Thanks for input.


  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Options
    Just was replying to:
    You mention Generator which we have no plans for, but here is an alternative option.

    Lets say your had this Generator that automatically kicks in with cloud or rain, in such case a system would not need Battery storage reserve. Of course this is not a real situation, but to help explain my idea, which is similar.
    Automation, while sometimes needed for remote sites/etc., are adding more points of complexity/failure.

    I am suggesting even a smaller genset to carry through more than ~2 days of bad weather (dark clouds can reduce output to as low as 5% of typical daily output--almost nothing).

    It is always a trade-off between loads, panels, batteries, and possible battery bank damage from over-discharging/lack of charging vs the costs/hassles of a genset as backup power.

    And Ray, did I miss replying to something? Of course, you have to give me a bit of time to make the longer replies--We are all volunteers here.

    Take care,
    -Bill :)
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Options
    You need different DC-DC converters.  It's normal to have 64V at the batteries during EQ in cold weather
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Options
    That is why I try to show my work and the fudge factors I use for the design.

    I obviously do not know your needs and desires. All I can do is make guesses from my side.

    One of the problems with "engineering" a design--Everything tends to towards worst case design. Not knowing earlier that you can reduce your loads to 33% during poor weather--I was using 1/0.75 and 1/0.65 as "fudge factors" to derate for minimum base loading.

    Of course, because you can reduce your base loads dramatically--Then you really do not need the 1/0.65 (my worst case guess) at all... You can drop that factor from the daily solar power estimate.

    However--If you keep the 2 days + 50% max discharge as a suggested battery bank--Then you look at the 5% to 13% typical rate of charge--Which does "push" for a larger solar array if you keep the 10% minimum recommended rate of charge for most deep cycle flooded cell batteries. You can get away with 5% minimum rate of charge (you need around 2.5 to 5% rate of charge for equalization) in a very sunny climate (which is why two array calculations--One based on battery bank size and the second based on loads+hours of sun).

    Take care,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭
    Options
    Mono vs Poly? I might get the technology that offered the best value at the time. Mono does offer more output in a smaller area. If space is limited, then mono comes in first. Mono enjoys a little more prestige I think. It is possible that poly may offer more bang for the buck.

    They are both very good.  There isn't enough difference to break a sweat....unless space is quite limited.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #13
    Options
    Just as an example, A number of years ago I handled a lot of BP Solar modules. The 3175 polycrystalline series VS. the 4175 Monocrystalline series. Exact same size modules, same output so for "module efficiency" they were exactly the same. The poly cells covered slightly more real estate in the mod because the cells are square while the clipped corner "pseudo square" mono cells left the diamond voids at the corners.
     Fast forward to today, it seems the higher powered modules are Monocrystalline technology. Have they managed to up the mono cell efficiency? 

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭
    Options
    I may tend to doubt that poly > mono. Perhaps they are being "used better." Better angle, less shade, better location, etc.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,044 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #15
    Options
    softdown said:
    I may tend to doubt that poly > mono. Perhaps they are being "used better." Better angle, less shade, better location, etc.
    Softdown, Thanks for your comment. Minor error, I meant to say Mono> poly. I have corrected my error. So my question is have they improved MONO efficiency recently.  

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭
    Options
    Seems like efficiency goes up every couple years. My older 32" x 61" BPs are rated at 150 watts. Several years later, I bought at 180 watts. Last year at 195 watts I think. Wonder how they do it?
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #17
    Options
    The Poly stats can be about 3% less efficient then Mono.
    This is not the actual efficiency but the comparative % variation.
    It could be prudent to compare both types in your output and price range, particularly with larger panels.
    The picture could be different if temperature coefficiency was really bad,in such case the overall quality might be low.
    We are at the point where it is no longer clear!

    Edit: got the poly and mono stats in wrong order, confusing.
  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #18
    Options
    BB. said:

    And Ray, did I miss replying to something? Of course, you have to give me a bit of time to make the longer replies--We are all volunteers here.

    Take care,
    -Bill :)
    You have covered everything.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    Battery
    Quote:
    Nominally, for a full time off grid system, I would suggest that you design for 2 days of "no sun", and 50% discharge on the battery bank--Or your battery bank is ~4x your daily load. :End Quote.

    My battery calculation are correct by this formulae. (Tick, done).
    ---------------
    Solar Panel
    Quote your example:
    1,020 WH per day * 1/0.52 average off grid system eff * 1/4.06 hours of sun (Feb) = 483 Watts of Solar array (Feb break even month).

    My Solar Panel Calculations: 2724 WH per day * 1/4.78 hours of sun in June = 570 Watts of Solar array.
    --------------

    The Battery and Panel selection above that you gave in "200 watt solar wiring" thread is a simple math formulae.
    I am not saying that I do not appreciate your advice, but you have included things of which I have asked be excluded.

    Question 1/

    570 watts is clearly wrong, so What voltage is the Panel wattage based on?
    The answer for this case, could be that you multiple this wattage by the amount of panels in series!
    You offered the math, and many other people with series panels will want to use it.

    Thanks.
    Ray
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Options
    When your batteries are at 50%, 2 days of clouds behind you, and 2 more days of clouds ahead, how do you recharge the bank before it sulphates ?  I just have had 3 days rain behind me, and many more before me,   The generator saves the batteries from death,
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #20
    Options
    mike95490 said:
    When your batteries are at 50%, 2 days of clouds behind you, and 2 more days of clouds ahead, how do you recharge the bank before it sulphates ?  I just have had 3 days rain behind me, and many more before me,   The generator saves the batteries from death,
    Thank you for your question.

    This is a solar project, as such the brief excludes Generators.
    We live in Semi desert, as explained, we get very little rain.

    In the rare event we have cloudy whether with no charging the load could be reduced to 1/3.
    On a blue moon we just switch it off.

    I would be surprised if this were required more then once or twice a year, even so, it still fits the brief.
    This will not suit everybody, but it will suit our requirements.

    This doesn't mean we will not include 2 days of battery reserve, it just gives more leeway and options.

    Maintenance or repairs that require external charging are not in the brief. Hire a charger!

    Cheers
  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited January 2017 #21
    Options
    Thank you all for the input.

    I have enough knowledge to proceed with an idea, better then having no idea :smiley:
    Apart from the charger, which I should now be researching.
    Example: Classic Sizing Tool for 3x3 320W Panels
    https://www.docdroid.net/oqVpQMu/classic-sizing-tool-for-3x3-320w-panels.pdf.html

    There is another factor I will very likely rule out just for simplicity, nevertheless I will do some detailed math one day out of interest.
    Using 100% of storage batteries in winter, and resting a percentage in summer. Something similar is described in this forum!
    You could increase the average battery life if the percentage ratio was workable within the system.

    Ruling it out of actual design, but will do the calculations one day based on all the variables.

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    Options
    I missed your edited post--Some of the comments/questions:
    Bit slow to read this, I see!
    So putting 3x 36v Panels in series is not possible, at least in the common MPPT?
    2x 36 or 72v seems low for 48v from standpoint of low light charging and resistive loss, do you understand 108v to be unsuitable or just less common for 48v bank. Not saying I know anything, just an interesting area!
    Voc and Vmp are temperature sensitive... Voc-cold rises with cold weather (the colder the panel, the higher the Vpanel voltage)--Since you do not have cold (sub-freezing) weather, then 108 volts may work just fine.

    And Vmp-hot will depress panel voltage. Hot panels can run at ~80% of Vmp-standard test conditions or 72 volts * 0.80 =57.6 Volts--Just about the minimum battery charging voltage (without allowing for wiring and charge controller drop). The IV/power curve of a solar panel is relatively rounded--So this has been an "accepted" Vmp-array voltage (~72 volts minimum) for many years.

    For hot regions, MPPT with >72 volt Vmp arrays does give you more head room and allow for equalization of battery bank during summer (Vbatt~60-62 volts for flooded cell).
    Solar Panel
    Quote your example:
    1,020 WH per day * 1/0.52 average off grid system eff * 1/4.06 hours of sun (Feb) = 483 Watts of Solar array (Feb break even month).

    My Solar Panel Calculations: 2724 WH per day * 1/4.78 hours of sun in June = 570 Watts of Solar array.
    Your array calcuation is excluding ~77% derating for solar panels+charge controller and 80% efficiency for flooded cell lead acid batteries (or ~90% for AGM).
    • 2,724 WH per day * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 1/0.80 flooded cell lead acid battery eff *1/4.78 Hours of sun = 925 Watt array suggested (if flooded cell)
    • 2,724 WH per day * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 1/0.90 AGM battery eff *1/4.78 Hours of sun = 822 Watt array suggested (if flooded cell)
    AGM can be as high as 98% efficiency--Especially when new. Use the numbers you like for your installation.

    Question 1/

    570 watts is clearly wrong, so What voltage is the Panel wattage based on?
    The answer for this case, could be that you multiple this wattage by the amount of panels in series!
    You offered the math, and many other people with series panels will want to use it.
    Picking whatever Array Wattage you want--Now you have to look at your charge controller and available solar panel options.

    Say 48 volt battery bank and PWM charge controller. The nominal array voltage would be Vmp~72 volts with Vmp~18 volt panels. That is 4x panels in series. Then the panel wattage would be:
    • 925 Watts (my flooded cell calc) * 1/4 panels in series = 213 Watt panels
    At least in the US, there are not a lot of >140 Watt panels with Vmp~18 volts out there... But there are are a lot of 100-140 Watt panels. So, the array could be (for example) 4x 120 Watt panels in series x 2 parallel strings. Gives you an 8 panel (960 Watt @ Vmp~72 volt) array.

    There are a few Vmp~26 volt (72 cell) panels out there in the 200+ watt range. So, you could take 2x panels in series at ~240 Watts (est.) * 2 parallel strings for a 4 panel (~960 Watt) array (again PWM charge controller).

    Then there are the MPPT charge controller options. The typical MPPT charge controller can run Vmp-array from ~72 to 100 (or a bit higher) Vmp array (Voc 140-150 VDC). There are a lot of Vmp~30 volt panels out there in the 200+ Watt range). 3 in series would probably work well for your needs. 3x 308 Watt panels in series would work.

    There are also MPPT controllers that have maximum working voltages in the 200/250 Vpanel max range (at lower rated power/battery charging current). For Midnite, you can use their string sizing tool to help with the options/understanding:

    http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php

    Other manufactures may have their string sizing tools.

    I try very much to address the needs of the poster/user. The reasons for the steps I go through is to try and first understand your loads/power needs. Then do a paper sizing of the system (based on Array Wattage, location, seasonal usage, etc.). Once those basics are out of the way, then picking physical hardware is next. Solar panel section/configuration and charge controller options. They have to be mixed and matched--And usually take several configuration choice to figure out what is best for you ("expensive" 18 Vmp panels and "cheap" PWM controller; vs "cheaper" Vmp~30 panels and "more expensive" MPPT controllers).

    Also, the charge controllers have different options (networking, battery shunt for better battery control, etc.).

    Solar power battery banks have quite a wide "working voltage". Flooded cell would typically be from ~42 to 62 VDC (over charging, temperature, loading, and state of charge conditions).

    Anyway--Best wishes for your system design and implementation,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Rayson
    Rayson Registered Users Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Options
    Quote: For Midnite, you can use their string sizing tool to help with the options/understanding:
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/index.php

    There is a PDF above using a 320W poly Panel at 36.7v.
    This sizing and configuration ticks most boxes.
    Well on the way to a design, thank you for compiling the info.

    Cheers