A new improvement on old technology?

mcgivor
mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
in Old Battery Tech Discussions #1
The batteries I'm using are Yuassa EB 130 super light, not sure what that means, but they are flooded and have a glass mat between the plates. Been in service for a year now only require watering, but my question is has anyone heard of this? Can't seem to find any information online in English 
1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
· Share on Twitter

Comments

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Can you get a pic of the plates?  Can you get a hydrometer into the  hole and take a SG reading, ie is there space with electrolyte that can be siphoned out?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
    · Share on Twitter
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    No problem getting a hydrometer in, will go to town later today and take a picture of a cut open cell, if they still have it, shows detail you can't get through the hole with electrolyte.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,658 admin
    #4
    Here are the specifications (that I could find). The first page of marketing speak (I guess) is in Thai. The actual specifications are in English:

    http://www.winwinuni.com/images/column_1335758543/EB130 (Yuasa).pdf

    May not have that long of life when deep cycling (to 40% depth of discharge is rated 920 cycles).

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Thanks for the link Bill, interesting info and good to see the tests were preformed at realistic temperatures 30 to 45 degrees Celsius and not at the ideal 25, rarely is it ever that low here. Whilst working as an electrican I  was responsible for over 5000 batteries in emergency lighting and fire alarm systems, as a cost saving measure decided to spend 50% more and change from cheap to brand name, Panasonic and Yuassa, this resulted in a 90 +% drop in failure rate and service calls after hours for fire alarm troubles, however it ended up costing me in loss of overtime. Yes it's not the same as solar deep cycle but my good experience with those brands made an impression. Tried looking up similar testing for Trojan  but couldn't find similar test results but did notice they discredited Rolls batteries claims, never liked that sort making someone else look bad to make yourself look good, sort of thing.

    If you know of such test results please pass the links would be greatly appreciated. My battery sits at an average temperature of around 30 deg. C and when it gets hot in April/May up to 47 deg.C I use a water bath drawing ground water, 25 deg. This helps at least during those hot spells. Been testing the DOD in the early morning and despite not waiting 2 hours, more like 15 min. the voltage is around 24.6 so according to the charts I sourced is around  25% and 50% on those warm spells mentioned, have to have fan running almost all night. 
    Although new at the solar off grid living, I am learning every day and it's good to network with others who have spent more time researching and have learned from mistakes, which we all make, thanks again.

    Ivor 

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
    · Share on Twitter
  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    #6
    You may want to look at the recent introduction of "EFB" or Enhanced Flooded Batteries.  I think this may be one of them.

    Yuasa has some details on them (search for Yuasa EFB enhanced flooded batteries), as well as Varta / Johnson Controls.  Yuasa seems to indicated that they use carbon as an additive (to improve PSOC operations), and Varta shows the fleece separators, although I can't be sure your's has carbon or not.  It sure has the fleece coverings - mainly used to keep the active material from falling away under high cycling duty.

    In the automotive world, they are kind of a lower-cost variant of AGM's - although flooded of course.  Mainly intended for micro-hybrid (stop/start), and other psoc environments.

    Very interesting and deserves some more research.  I'd be very interested in a comparison between these and the usual so-called "dual purpose" or marine flooded batts, typically used as learner batteries.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,939 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
    One of the battery engineers I know told me that the Trojan and Outback "smart carbon" is a marketing term and has little in it technically to improve the battery. I am not saying it is bad for the battery but it does little for performance. Just a way to capitalize on all the hype and make it sound good for sales!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Dave Angelini said:
    One of the battery engineers I know told me that the Trojan and Outback "smart carbon" is a marketing term and has little in it technically to improve the battery. I am not saying it is bad for the battery but it does little for performance. Just a way to capitalize on all the hype and make it sound good for sales!
    Probably true, lead acid is is such old technology, manufacturers need to come up with all kinds of marketing tactics, the use of the word "turbo" was used in sales hype fo all types of products, which had nothing to do with the product, but sounds like it is enhanced in some way. The days of LA are numbered although they will, more than likely have a long slow death, as the transition process to new technology will take time to be embraced, perhaps it will take a generation change, as old diehard users are replaced with fresh new minds, who knows ? 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
    · Share on Twitter
  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Actually it *does* improve current handling capabilities (measure the IR if you have the gear), and helps, but does not completely stop PSOC sulfation, which is mostly prevalent in start-stop type micro-hybrid duty.  One still *has* to fully charge on a regular basis.

    For those of us that run relatively low-current / large battery banks, and they get recharged properly, then you may not see the immediate benefit.  But, those that don't get a decent charge in often might benefit.  Thing is, this isn't a green light to not properly size your solar array in the first place.

    If you want to play, Exide's "Edge" agm is commonly available.  Get the so-called marine / deep cycle one.  As of now, this seems easier for a consumer to get a hold of rather than the East Penn Ultrabattery.

    But don't trust me - put one to the test - they are easy to get.  As always, get fresh from a reliable source.  If it seems to work for you, then perhaps a Trojan or other smart-carbon / graphite agm might be worth looking into.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,939 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    I don't "play around" with any battery testing. I do not have time and it is pretty boring to me. I want known good and and then I verify.
    My Engineer friends at Schneider who do "play around"  said it is fluff for deep cycling daily offgrid. I have not seen any difference in a few of my clients who bought the smart carbon Trojans. They are holding up from 2 years ago but seem no different than the previous Trojan batteries.

    I have heard all the "this might help" for 35+ years of lead acid in daily cycling applications. Open minded but very pessimistic of lead acid marketing. :'( 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Heh, that's why I don't absolutely trust my engineering "friends", not even in a forum. :)

    How many "known good" top of the line products / batteries have generated threads of total disappointment?  And in the anonymous internet, there is always the probability of shills.  Just saying, not accusing - we've all seen it elsewhere.

    Too many variables, and too many hidden biases.  If it matters to you, test things yourself and draw your own conclusions.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,175 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #12
    Dave Angelini said:
    (Snip......)
    Open minded but very pessimistic of lead acid marketing. :'( 
    Hey Dave!

    I would have said lithium or Tesla where you put lead acid marketing o:):) 
    How is your weather holding?!!!!

    Marc
    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
    · Share on Twitter
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,658 admin
    #13
    Dave wanted rain... We are sending him rain (and warm rain that is melting his snow).

    -Bill :o
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,939 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Too much rain going into the ocean, not enough storage and really high elevation snow is melting from pineapple express storms.
    The Ski area in Yosemite has not opened yet and the Agriculture folks below me in the central valley are going to drill more wells.

    The Tesla plant on the other side of the Sierra opened last week so that is good. Our rainfall is 30 inches and it sounds like the ocean outside with all the creeks and rivers at max. They closed Yosemite for the first time in many years because the Merced river is going to go past flood stage. The mountains should be white this time of year and I still have not tested my Pilot in the snow for 2 years now. :)

    What is new in the Lone Star? 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,939 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Yes you are Sir Bill ! Happy New Year
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter
  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #16
    Thanks to Dave's forecast a couple days ago, still conditions, mid 60s' and full sun here in SE AZ all week.

    Looks like Bill and you guys need a breather!
    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
    · Share on Twitter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,939 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Hey we have 60's too. Not much from the arrays though...Living on storage until Friday.
    This morning I was listening to the SF bay area traffic reports and it sounded like a good to stay home. Another big storm tonight.
    .
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

    · Share on Twitter

Categories