Coming back again, 12 v Toy hauler solar build

Well guys,
I am back again, 
I posted in 2014 about my pending TH Solar RV build.

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, have had more problems with the G bladder operation,
and the big “C” word being cut out, (just found), so my thoughts and time have been diverted from this build.

During this same time, I had a complete meltdown from my service provider and computer, so I lost all info etc.
Seems like, I just don't have good Luck with electronics/ electrical things, and is the main reason for no follow up etc. 

I did find my note book with notes/info in it from my posts etc, 
so I can update most of my info/thoughts for a worst case scenario, 12v solar build
for 110% Boondocking during winter time use, temps run from 30* to 0* etc.

Here is some of the updated info and equipment I have bought or made so far.
-----------------------------------
4  Canadian Solar CS6P-230P Silver Frame PV panels,
With tilt bars for panels, for winter time use only, if needed.
I want to be able use these panels in the flat mounted position, if possible.

STC Power Rating 230W
PTC Power Rating 211W 1
STC Power per unit of area 13.3W/ft2 (143.0W/m2)
Peak Efficiency 14.3%
Power Tolerances 0%/+2%
Number of Cells 60
Imp 7.78A
Vmp 29.6V
Isc 8.34A
Voc 36.8V
NOCT 45°C
Temp. Coefficient of Power -0.43%/K
Temp. Coefficient of Voltage -0.125V/K
Series Fuse Rating 15A
Maximum System Voltage 600 Vistics
Type Polycrystalline Silicon
Output Terminal Type Multi Connector Type 4
Output Cable Wire Gauge 12 AWG, 2 ft long
Output Cable Wire Type PV Wire
Frame Color Clear
Length 64.5in
Width 38.7in
Depth 1.6in
Weight 44.1lb
Warranty and Certifications
80% Power Output Warranty Period 25yrs
90% Power Output Warranty Period 10yrs
Workmanship Warranty Period 6yrs
UL 1703 Fire Classification data not available
Compliance UL 1703

NOTE: I ordered 4 CS6P 220W PV, 
But the company sent me CS6P 230W panels instead. When I checked back with them, on a possible mistake, 
They stated that they did NOT have enough panels for my order, and they substituted the 230w panel instead,
for the 220w PV price, I had ordered.
 
The spec’s of the 220W panels were,
Voc 36.6V
Imp 7.72A
Vmp 29.3V
Isc 8.09A 
All the other spec’s are the same.

PV wire total lengths to the CC :
Panel 1=12'
Panel 2=11'
Panel 3=10'
Panel 4=11'

I will use MC4 "branch couplers" with dielectric silicone grease, used for ALL connections.

--------------------------------------------------------
4 Costco 6v GC battery’s @ 220 A each = 450A total 
I have not bought yet, as I want to get them all from the same production run,
and will use either the #3 or #4 diagram from the Smartgauge for battery connections, 
to have a balanced system.
------------------------------------------------------
Morningstar’s MPPT Charge Controller: Tristar 60 Amp
Came with a meter/Remote Temp sensor for above and also have a Trimetric Battery meter.
------------------------------------------------------
I got some amp usage readings for some of the electrical equipment on the TH.
Here is the info, 
Water Pump = 3 amps (during the run cycle), used 1/2 hr max/per day? = 1.5 ah
Reefer = 2 amps when running (don't know the cycle yet) =24 ah
LPG Detector = .05 amps (constant on/24 per day) = 1.5 ah
CO Detector = .11 amps (constant on/24 hrs per day) = 2.65 ah
LED light panels (4/panels per light fixture) = .33 amps = 5 ah p/nite use,

Furnace = 9.1amps per/5 minute cycle, = 72 ah
Using the 0* temps, (worst scenario conditions), see info below,

Other parasitic loads = 24 hr run time = 25Ah?
(Co2 Det, LPG, Frig, Thermostat, Water heater boards etc, Inverter loss etc),

Total amp/hrs will be LESS than 140 for an average days use.

Furnace
Make: Suburban
Model: SF30F 30,000 BTU
The inside Coleman (analog) thermostat set at 55*, (lowest setting possible),
(this thermostat will be changed to a digital model, once I find the correct replacement model).
Turned on the furnace and the reading was 10.5A,
Which leveled out to 9.1A during running cycle.
.....................................
40* Outside air temps,
Run time= 5 min on
Off for 50 min's, then recycled
9.1 amps * 5 min/60 min per hour * 8 hours = 6.1 A hr used for 8 hrs per night
………………….
30* O/S temps
On time = 5 min
Off time = 40 min, then recycled
9.1 amps * 5 min/40 min per hour * 8 hours = 7.3 A hr per night
…………………………….
20* O/S temps (N wind blowing solid 10 mph, gusts to 20+mph,
(DID not figure Wind Chill effect)
On=5 min
Off= 30 min, then recycled
9.1 amps * 5 min/30 min per hour * 8 hours = 12.1 A hr per night
……………………………
10* O/S temps, (N wind blowing solid 10 mph, gusts to 20+mph,
(DID not figure Wind Chill effect)
On 5 min
Off 10 min, then recycled
9.1 amps * 5 min/10 min per hour * 8 hours = 35 A hr per night
…………………………..
Worst case scenario
0* O/S temps, (N wind blowing solid 10 mph, gusts to 20+mph,
(DID not figure Wind Chill effect)
On for 5 min
Off for 5 min, then recycled
9.1 amps * 5 min/5 min per hour * 8 hours = 73 A Hr per night

I know from prior usage, the skirting will reduce the cycle times up to 50%, 
in the extreme Cold weather etc once it is set up.
-------------------------------------------------------------
The pending battery bay underneath the TH measures,
65" long x 48" wide and 18/20" high/deep.
I have the plans to make a HD welded battery rack that will support the battery's weight,
once the amount can be figured out, the battery temps will above 40+* due to the skirting use.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Have an OEM  4000w gen set installed, 
and 2- 2000w Honda gen sets,
As extras as needed.
------------------------------------------------------------ 
The battery's (2-90w 12v Deep cycle) OEM on the tongue,
will be a separate system that is charged via the gen set and 
OEM Progressive Dynamics (PD 9260) 60 Amp power converter with charge wizard

As set up now, the OEM set up will not be changed in any way.
These tongue battery's will be used for ANYTHING required,
Mainly the trolling motor for fishing, but can used as a backup system for the TH/TV,
If anything goes wrong.

All wiring resistance losses will be built for 3% or less.

Have I missed or forgotten anything?

Tia,
Don
«1

Comments

  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 28,867 admin
    Don, I am so sorry to hear what life is throwing at you right now.

    Best wishes going forward.

    Sincerely,
    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Bill, Thank you,

    I am bound and determined to finish this build.
    The major problems I am dealing with right now is,

    Are these 230w PV panels TOO much for the MS 60a MPPT CC?

    "How to" make/fit 2/O Battery welding cables to fit into the #2 MS MPPT connector openings?
    Have been thinking of swagging thin copper rings to the 2/O wiring, using my 12 ton crimper/die sets? 
    Or lathe turn some copper reducers for the wire ends etc.

    Tia,
    Don

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You should make up some #2 jumpers and crimp them to the 2/O cables   Don't use wire nuts .
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You might want to try these splice dlocks, they are available in other sizes, these have a range from 14 AWG to 2/0
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭✭
    Why are you running 2/0 cable from your CC? How much amperage can it put out, 60 amps? Is your CC a long distance from your battery bank?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Why are you running 2/0 cable from your CC? How much amperage can it put out, 60 amps? Is your CC a long distance from your battery bank?

    LH

    The run will be between 8' to 10' one way from CC to the batteries.
    I would like to have less than 3% loss total from the CC to the batteries using welding cable.

    Tia,
    Don


  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭✭
    Did I read your description correctly, and that you are using 12Ga wire from the PV panels?  I have used 10 Ga as that was what was available when I bought my panels, and I believe that is the norm... that would be easier to use and give you a bit less V drop...
    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭✭
    The NEC will allow up to 195 amps into 2/0 copper. 75 amps into 6 gauge. I'm seeing less than 4 tenths of a percent voltage drop into 2/0 wire. while you are aiming for low losses  2/0 wire is a bit excessive for this application. There is a reason your 60 amp controller has this size (2 awg) connection points. They don't need to be any larger.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Did I read your description correctly, and that you are using 12Ga wire from the PV panels?  I have used 10 Ga as that was what was available when I bought my panels, and I believe that is the norm... that would be easier to use and give you a bit less V drop...
    hth
    WB
    This is the info off the 4-230w PV panels, that were shipped to me,
    instead of the 220w panel I order.

    STC Power Rating 230W
    PTC Power Rating 211W 1
    STC Power per unit of area 13.3W/ft2 (143.0W/m2)
    Peak Efficiency 14.3%
    Power Tolerances 0%/+2%
    Number of Cells 60
    Imp 7.78A
    Vmp 29.6V
    Isc 8.34A
    Voc 36.8V
    NOCT 45°C

    "Output Terminal Type Multi Connector Type 4
    Output Cable Wire Gauge 12 AWG, 2 ft long
    Output Cable Wire Type PV Wire".

    Would the 10 ga wire make that much difference,
    for the 4-230W panel and using a MS 60a MPPT CC,
    going to 220+ a in 4-6v GC batteries?

    PV panel wire run lengths to the CC : (I made a mistake in my first post, about the total lengths),
    Panel 1=22'
    Panel 2=21'
    Panel 3=20'
    Panel 4=21'
    I will use MC4 "branch couplers" with dielectric silicone grease, used for ALL connections, and
    will buy 40' OEM MC-4 cables and cut them in half to complete the total run lengths needed,
    once the total lengths are confirmed.

    I am trying to find the formula info in my note book.

    Tia,
    Don



  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭✭
    here is the V. loss calculator http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/60/voltage-drop-calculator#latest 
    and you need to go to the CC makers website for their calculator for the max # of PV panels it can support...

    I suspect those 40'  MC4 cables will be 10 Ga, mine are...

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    You might want to try these splice dlocks, they are available in other sizes, these have a range from 14 AWG to 2/0
    Those splice blocks are NOT likely going to work with the ultra thin wires in the welding cable, and will just mush it to the sides and make a poor connection.  Welding cable has to be "captured" with a crimp ring or a "U" shape compression clamp that won't let it spread out
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mcgivormcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 2,769 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re. Splice Burndy blocks.

    Actually they work well with welding cable as long as the correct size is used, the screw covers the full width of the socket leaving little to no room for displacement, unlike some cheap connectors, I understand what you mean though.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah FLA 24V nominal used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    WB

    Thank you for that calculator, I could not get it to work for me at this time, I am not doing something on my end.

    Since the PV panel OEM wiring is 12 ga, I thought I should stay with that size,
    upon checking I found out the 40' MC-4 wiring is 10 ga, so I'll go with the 10 ga size.

    Also received this info from the MS, about the TS MPPT 60a CC,

    Hi Donald,
    Yes, those panels can be safely used in a 2x2 series/parallel wiring configuration with your TS-MPPT-60. 
    They can not be wired all in series because the string voltage will exceed the 150Voc max input rating of the TriStar-MPPT.
    Best Regards,
    Noah Sindermann
    MS Technical Support
    Morningstar Corporation
    Skype: support.morningstar
    [email protected]
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Info sent, 
    Description:
    I have the above TS MPPT 60a CC,
    with 4-Canadian CS6P-230w pv panels.
    My minimum Out Side low temps can range from -10* to a maximum of 100+ in the summer time.
    The total panel wire lengths will be 20-22' from Panels to this CC, 1 way.
    I prefer to flat mount these panels, when mounted.
    Can I SAFELY use these 4 pv panels with the 60a MPPT CC?
    I am NOT sure how to connect these panels,
    meaning series, parallel or a combo of series/parallel etc,
    and I do not want to destroy the CC etc.

    So I am requesting valid info on the correct connecting way to install these panels and CC.
    Thank you,
    Don
    ---------------------------------

    So now I can continue forward,  :)  

    On figuring out the proper circuit breakers and fuses for this build,
    I would like a safe way to disconnect the PV panels, CC and battery bank,
     to do any testing, repairs/corrections that may be needed etc.

    Thoughts/suggestions?

    Tia,
    Don
  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Did I read your description correctly, and that you are using 12Ga wire from the PV panels?  I have used 10 Ga as that was what was available when I bought my panels, and I believe that is the norm... that would be easier to use and give you a bit less V drop...
    hth
    ---------------------
    WB

    Thank you for that calculator, I could not get it to work for me at this time, I am not doing something on my end.

    Since the PV panel OEM wiring is 12 ga, I thought I should stay with that size,
    upon checking I found out the 40' MC-4 wiring is 10 ga, so I'll go with the 10 ga size instead.

    Also received this info from the MS, about the TS MPPT 60a CC,

    Hi Donald,
    Yes, those panels can be safely used in a 2x2 series/parallel wiring configuration with your TS-MPPT-60.  
    They can not be wired all in series because the string voltage will exceed the 150Voc max input rating of the TriStar-MPPT.
    Best Regards,
    Noah Sindermann
    MS Technical Support
    Morningstar Corporation
    Skype: support.morningstar
    [email protected]
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Info sent, 
    Description:
    I have the above TS MPPT 60a CC,
    with 4-Canadian CS6P-230w pv panels.
    My minimum Out Side low temps can range from -10* to a maximum of 100+ in the summer time.
    The total panel wire lengths will be 20-22' from Panels to this CC, 1 way.
    I prefer to flat mount these panels, when mounted.
    Can I SAFELY use these 4 pv panels with the 60a MPPT CC?
    I am NOT sure how to connect these panels,
    meaning series, parallel or a combo of series/parallel etc,
    and I do not want to destroy the CC etc.

    So I am requesting valid info on the correct connecting way to install these panels and CC.
    Thank you,
    Don
    ---------------------------------

    So now I can continue forward,    

    On figuring out the proper circuit breakers and fuses for this build, 
    I would like a safe way to disconnect the PV panels, CC and battery bank,
     to do any testing, repairs/corrections that may be needed etc.

    Thoughts/suggestions?

    Tia,
    Don
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭✭
    the fuse/CB size should be listed on the back of the panels...  my guess is 10A or 15A based on my PV having a similar Amp output.

    or take the Imp  x 1.25 x 1.25 u size needed (round up to next size) so 7.78 x 1.25 x 1.25 =
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Thanks for the info, so the PV panels need a 12.15 A fuse minimum, so will have to go to a 15 a size.
    (this is what that is on the PV panels).

    Sorry for the dumb questions,
    I am wading thru my notes, and not understandingremembering what I wrote/noted now?  

    The CC to batteries is my greatest concern, along with figuring the inverter  fuse rating etc.
    I should use CB between the batteries and CC correct,
    do I use the full amp values or use the derated values when figuring?

    Tia,
    Don
  • Iceni JohnIceni John Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
    edited November 2016 #18

    I have a broadly similar system as yours, just doubled!   You were wondering about how best to connect cables to and from the Morningstar CC  -  if you have one of those cheapo hydraulic crimpers (Harbor Fright often has theirs on sale) you can do what I did.   I bought 1/2" copper plumbing couplings from Home Despot and progressively squeezed them tighter and tighter onto the ends of the 4AWG cables (the PV feed) and 2AWG cables (the output to the batteries) until I had a solid hexagonal plug fused onto the cable ends, then I trimmed them to the right length and tightened them securely into the charge controller.   The benefit of hexagonal ends to the cable is that when you tighten the set screw it won't spread out the crimped end and jam it inside the cable receptacles, unlike square crimps that can spread out wider when the set screw pushes down into them.   You can use this technique for coarse-stranded THHN cable or for fine-stranded welding cable.   I suppose one could just tin the cable ends until they were fused solid with solder, but I prefer to not solder anything that carries more than a few amps.

    FYI, I use 12A AGC fuses for each of my 255W panels inside their combiner boxes.   Sharp says to use 15A, but my panels' Isc is about 8.9A and Imp is about 8.4A, so 12A should be OK.   I use 10AWG UV-resistant cable between each panel and its combiner box, run inside a length of 1" aluminum tube as conduit to further protect it from the slings and arrows of whatever can happen on my bus roof.  So far, so good.

    I use Carling Type C circuit breakers for the CCs' inputs and outputs, 50A for the paralleled PV inputs that total 34A per CC, and 80A for the 60A outputs to each battery bank.   These breakers are DC-rated and good quality, and available from NAWS.   I made a simple enclosure for the four breakers in a small aluminum box that sits next to the two CCs and is easily accessible in an emergency.

    John

    40' Crown bus with 2kW of tiltable panels on the roof:

    Eight Sharp 255W, two Morningstar TS-MPPT-60, Magnum MS2000, Champion C46540 generator converted to propane, eight golfcart batteries, and maybe a small Exeltech inverter for the fridger.

    Southern California

  • scrubjaysnestscrubjaysnest Solar Expert Posts: 174 ✭✭✭
    I used Midnite Solar breakers between the panels and CC and CC to batteries. These have been working well as disconnects. Currently using 3-100 watt panels as portables with 8 AWG wire. I replaced the 12AWG pig tails with 10 AWG. The breaker between panels and CC gets turn off and on every time we change CG's.
  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited December 2016 #20
    Thanks guys,

    IC John
    Thanks for that info,

    I have 8 and 16 ton models of hydraulic wire crimper's,
    and will try that method for the welding wire attachments etc.
    I don't solder anything but smaller wiring. 

    I am building a 3/4'' attachment base board to mount everything on,
    as the access into this electrical bay is limited etc.

    Having to decide whether to use a combiner box (on the roof),
    using series/parallel wiring and MC-4 branch couplers to the combiner box with AGC fuses etc.

    Or, run the above combo of MC-4 branch couplers/wiring straight to the fuses,
    (using the reefer vent access hole straight down to the electrical bay),
    that will be right next to the CC etc, mounted in the inside electrical bay.

    Wire resistance losses will be under 1%, either way.
    Attempting to stay off the TH roof as much as possible,
    and still have reasonable access to all the electrical equipment.

    So many choices or ways to do things, being new to solar,
    I have a lot to learn and understand etc, to have a safe, reliable solar system.

    Tia,
    Don
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Personally, I'd put the combiner box at a handy location, if you ever have to troubleshoot.......
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited December 2016 #22
    Mike
    Thanks,
    That is what I am leaning towards also, less wear/tear on the roof,
    and I hate doing PLF's off the 13' TH roof, on this 70 yo very tired bod.

    The next area to address/fix up is getting the power from this new solar setup,
    4-230w PV, + MS MPPT 60a CC + 4-220w GC batteries to the TH OEM system etc,
    and I am not sure just how to properly do it.

    I have the following OEM installed,
    Progressive Dynamics (PD 9260C) 60A CC/converter with charge wizard,
    with 10 ga wiring, on a 21-22' run to the that feeds power to the 2-90w battery's, as it stands now.

    I know that I am going to have to run new HD wire, to where the OEM CC/converter ties into the TH wiring system,
    all this is hidden underneath the floor some where, 
    I'll have to remove the underneath Corroplast frame covering  and chase everything down.  

    If I use the OEM 10 ga wiring and system, it seems to take forever to charge the 2- 90w tongue batteries,
    and I think I would be just shooting myself in the foot, so to speak.

    So I need some info/guidance on the best way to reliably accomplish this next step etc.

    Tia,
    Don
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Each panel can have 10ga wire going to the combiner,   But once combined, you need larger wire (#8 or even #6) going to the controller and then battery.   230W x 4 = 920possible watts @ 14V charging = 65A. 
    Charge controller to Combiner = 35A possible.  I'd use at least #8 ga
    After the MPPT Charge Controller = 65A possible. (TS limit 60A)  I'd use at least #6 , but if there was much distance, I'd use #4.


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Mike
    Thanks for that info,
    I will go with the largest wiring possible to keep the resistance down to around 1%, I hope.
    Have been playing with a V D calculator to see the results etc.

    There is a 2' of OEM # 12 wires from the pv panels, that I cannot change,
    but the rest of the wiring down to the combiner box can be what I want to use,
    for a total of 22' max length, using series then parallel connections etc.

    I also found out some info that has me stumped/confused, ie
    How does the CC get DC power converted to AC power, to use in the TH?

    I found out that my OEM PD 6290C CC/converter has a power cord that is plugged into a electrical box,
    and then has 2 house type wires that connect to the Main TH power control box.
    (This power cord was hidden behind the CC and in the birds nest of wiring, I never have seen it before,
    had to use a mirror & flashlight to find it).

    It appears that I will have to have a new converter for the NEW MS MPPT 60a CC,
    as there appears to have no way of changing the DC power to AC power, that I can find etc.

    Am I correct on this thinking? 

    Tia,
    Don

  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The MS TS MPPT-60 is a Solar Charge controller, for charging batteries with DC

    How does the rig currently get it's AC power?   Leaving that same gadget connected to your new batteries
    should still provide AC
     But, yes, there has to be a DC-AC inverter somewhere in the system.

    Often the RV "converter" is both a battery charger and a inverter and a shore power relay.  You have to find out what it is, and give us the model #.  Going with solar, you need it to be efficient, and to have a usable (pure sinewave) for your AC fan motors.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    Mike
    As I understand it now, (Realize, I am in over my head now),

    Here is the info on the OEM installed CC/converter,
    http://www.progressivedyn.com/rv_converter_pd9260c_2.html,
    and I believe that this converter is a battery charger/inverter/shore power relay, using/with the Onan 4000w gen set.

    From the back this PD 9260C converter, there is an electrical cord that plugs into a electrical box/plug,
    this plug/box has 2 white house type #12 size wires, coming from this elect box.

    One of these wires goes to an outside electrical plug in, in the side wall,
    and the other wire that disappear into the wall and travel across the top of the ceiling/roof, (I think),
    which goes to the main electrical wiring section panel/bay of the other side of the RV.

    I have never pulled this electrical bay panel/face out to see what is behind it etc, (yet),
    there may be more electrical stuff behind this panel etc, that I am NOT aware of,
    this electrical panel houses all the TH fuses/breakers etc.

    There is  no other type of electronic box installed any where else, that I am aware of, 
    unless it is installed underneath the TH, (which I doubt, due to the dampness involved etc).

    I hope I have made sense.

    Tia,
    Don





  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Then you simply hook the charge controller to the batteries (with proper fusing for the wire gauge) that the existing convertor is hooked to,  Delivers filtered DC power to all 12 Volt lighting and appliance circuits, providing safe and reliable service.
    Apparently, the convertor is only a battery charger, and not an inverter, so for any 120VAC loads, you will need an inverter.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited December 2016 #28
    Mike,

    I did some more investigating in the TH RV,  I got brave and pulled the electrical center out and looked behind it,

    I have found this behind the elect center,
    http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd5110010.html

    there is also this piece of electrical equipment,
    http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd5000_2.html

    I also see where I was getting confused, the PD 9260C (converter) wording,
    led me to believe that this was an DC to AC converter, But is is a battery charger only,
    that converts 12v DC only.

    Please, understand I was not doubting your info/help etc, but was VERY confused on the converter wording,
    Sorry about that.

    What is a good Brand name of inverter that will work with my solar system,
    with 920w of PV's, 440a of 6v batteries, MS MPPT 60a CC,
    that will run the Micro/coffee maker during normal use times?

    The MW is rated at 1000w and the coffee maker is rated at 1250w, per their labels,
    and we do recharge the cell phones when needed etc.

    We have not use the AC in the 6+yrs of using this RV,
    So I am not concerned about it at this time etc.
     
    Tia,
    Don
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,135 ✭✭✭✭
    Don said What is a good Brand name of inverter that will work with my solar system,

    our host has a lot of good inverters on the first 2 pages,
    https://www.solar-electric.com/residential.html?cat=729 for inverter only units,

    Or do you want to use one of those or a Inverter/charger which will give you a full 3 phase charge (Bulk, Absorb  and Float)? If so there are the  more costly unit from Outback, Magnum and Schneider that start at the bottom of page 2 on above link...
    hth
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • NvreloaderNvreloader Solar Expert Posts: 71 ✭✭
    edited December 2016 #30
    WB
    Thanks for that info,

    Which brings me to these questions,

    1.  Do I need a inverter that is both an inverter and charger?
    Seeing that I have the MS MPPT 60a CC for charging the batteries already?

    2. Is this inverter charger part the same as the MS Mppt CC for the batteries?

    3.  Or do I need both?

    4.  For the inverter,
    I would need one that is rated for over 1250w, to run both these items properly ? 
    (The MW is rated at 1000w and the coffee maker is rated at 1250w),
    per their labels, and we do recharge the cell phones when needed correct?

    Please Remember,
    I am a very new to this type of stuff, and get confused a lot,
    reason I am asking lots of dumb questions, which you SOLAR Wolves know by heart,
    as per the stars on your name. Lol.

    I still don't know how I got to "Level 2", in a solar rating, I do believe that someone made a BIG mistake, some how.

    Tia,
    Don
  • mike95490mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think I would recommend 2 solutions for you, but first,
    Keep the existing converter.
    Keep your solar & Tristar

    First, buy new, a 1500 mod sinewave (cheap) inverter to run the coffee maker and microwave, You are only going to turn it ON for the short time you use the coffeemaker,   And then you switch it OFF.    Why ?  Because a large inverter has a lot of stand-by loss.  Say it's 5% loss.   So a 1500w inverter would always be sucking 75w from the batteries when it's on, even if it's just powering the wall wart to charge your 5w cell phone.  The microwave may complain a bit from the square waveform, but they generally manage (have to re-think this if you have a $$$ microwave)

    Second, buy a new, 300W Morningstar SureSine inverter.  very low power draw, very robust, and can supply a 600w surge for up to 10 minutes.  Use this to power all the other stuff,   You CANT turn everything on at once,  but you can, with a little bit of planning, arrange your loads to not overload this inverter.   And it sips power and will take weeks to flatten the batteries without any other loads.

    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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