The cost of Solar Power System

I believe you are currently in Saudi Arabia (possibly elsewhere in Italy/Europe).

We are all volunteers here, and do not really do quoting of prices.

Our host (who pays the bills for the forum and lets us post here for "free")--Is Northern Arizona Wind and Sun:

http://solar-electric.com/

They have vary reasonable prices and good service/support. However, in Europe, prices (and import/customs duties) can have quite a bit higher pricing.

The product names you mention (and I recognize) are all good quality European equipment manufacturers. But, in the US, much of this equipment is probably "too expensive" for most of us in the US (there are some European products here that have relatively good pricing too--Have to hunt around for the suppliers--NAWS does sell some Euro product--But then we get into the 120/240 vac 60 Hz vs 230 vac 50 Hz issue--So still may be difficult to compare exactly).

For example, a quick search for one of your products returns:

Control Cabinet Studer X-Connect System - Stafco Webshop

That is ~€2,140 Euro--and possibly out of Belgium(?). Is that a good price or not? I Do not know. How much would it cost to ship/insure/bring through customs--Don't know that either.

What we try to do here is help people understand their loads, do a paper design of the "generic system", then recommend "classes" of hardware that could work for you (i.e., small system vs large system components are "different").

-Bill

You have not told us how many solar panels.... Or if you are looking just hardware or including labor.

Assuming about 12,000 watts of solar panels, €50,000 is certainly possible for just the off grid solar hardware and battery bank.

$12,000 for solar panels and $20,000 USD for 2,000 AH @ 48 volt lead acid forklift battery bank... Without shipping+taxes included.

$2,000 for solar charge controllers and $4,000 for an 8,000 watt a.c. Inverter.
Close to $38,000 for basic hardware (no wiring, no panel racks, no taxes/shipping, no labor). In Europe with higher costs and taxes, €50,000 for a complete system hardware package does sound plausible.

-Bill

Andrew,

No problem--People post here when they have time.

I am not in the solar business--Just a (more or less) retired engineer who tries to help folks with questions.

I am in the US, and not familiar with most of your brands and equipment (European mostly?).

Buying a system from Europe for use in the US--Will hit you with high European taxes and US Import duties (not cheap either)--Plus getting support and spare parts in the US will be a long supply line (lots of delays, shipping/payment issues, etc.).

It sounds like somebody designed a system for your needs (this is not a small system). I would suggest that you contact various distributors directly (located, at least, in the country of where the equipment will be installed). for pricing/availability.

Some distributors will pre-wire and test systems--Helpful if you will be installing the system in a remote location (away from stores/sources of components). And making sure that nothing is missing.

I am not sure I can really give you much more help unless you have questions about your basic system (enough batteries and solar panels for your loads, a good backup genset--if needed, etc.).

-Bill

 24 Panels: SILLIA 320 W. POLY
Kyocera KU340-8BCA ($320 each)
  24  Battery: GNB opzV,2V,1957 Ah
Surrette Battery - 2 Volts, 2430 Amp-hours ($1,176 each)
2 String Box: PN-GCBB- 8 Strings, 80A, 275 VDC, IP66
Midnite Solar MNPV6 Solar Array Combiner (6 circuit $88.50)
2 Charge Controller: STUDER charge controller VT-80
Outback Flexmax 80 Amp MPPT Solar Charge Controller ($550 each)
1 Inverter: Studer XTH 6000-48-6Kw
Outback Radian GS8048A 8,000 Watt Advanced Inverter/Charger ($4,145)
Monitoring System: 1 Remote controller Studer RCC-02,1  Communication Set Studer Xcom-LAN, 1 Temperature Sensor Studer BTS-01?
Outback Power Flexnet-DC System Monitor ($275)
Main Battery Switch: 2 Circuit Breaker 125A?
GSLC175 Prewired Load Center PV/120/240 for Two Charge Controllers ($1,230)
Above total ~$52,831

Other Electronic Components:
12  MC4 Connector for Panels male and female
1 Earthing complete Kit 25m
1 Individually Designed System installation Kit
1 Control Cabinet Studer X-connect
8 Earthing Cable Kit with Ring Terminals
15  PVC Cable Conduit ?
  2 Aluminum Profile Bar Kit for Inverter Mounting
1 Changeover Switch Moeller 63A
1 Battery Rack Kunstmann
6 AC Circuit Breaker

for clarification they have changed their price and please may you tell me how much they might cost to complete all the system thank you

Just picking rough equivalent parts--~$53,000, not including racking, wiring, grounding, addition I/O interface (Mates) for Outback hardware.

I am not saying this is a properly designed and configured system--Just a list of parts for rough pricing.

Our host, NAWS will do detailed designed services--Including complete bills of materials and pre-wired/pre-tested systems.
http://solar-electric.com/
But--That is NAWS, not me. I am not in the business and I do not work for NAWS.

-Bill

Can you tell us about what the system will be used for (on grid/backupbackup, pure off grid) and where installed?

Naws is in south west United States (state of Arizona). They do support out of USA customers too.

-Bill

OK, first is your power 230 VAC @ 50 Hz?

And, the Diesel Genset + AC charger (or AC inverter+charger) needs to be able to supply enough current to the battery bank for proper charging... For large industrial cells, generally 10% rate of charge minimum. If you have one string of 2 volt @ 1,957 AH batteries, that would be ~196 amps minimum. And the minimum genset should be:

• 196 Amps * 59 volts charging * 1/0.90 charger eff * 1/0.95 charger power factor * 1/0.80 genset derating = 16,906 Watt minimum rated genset (typical deratings)

For an off grid system, and if you do not want to run the diesel genset too much, you want a fairly large solar array. 5% to 13% is typical, with 5% for a seasonal/weekend/backup system, to 10%+ for a full time off grid system. For you (guessing) battery bank:

• 1,957 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar array derating * 0.05 rate of charge = 7,243 Watt array minimum
  
• 1,957 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar array derating * 0.10 rate of charge =14,487 Watt array nominal
  
• 1,957 AH * 59 volts charging * 1/0.77 solar array derating * 0.13 rate of charge =18,833 Watt array "typical cost effective maximum"

And then there is sizing the system (battery bank, solar array, genset) base on the amount of energy you use per day and amount of sun you get. Africa is a big place, so knowing roughly where the system would be installed would tell us how much average sun the system would get. Say your system is designed for 2 days of stored energy (bad weather) and 50% maximum discharge (for longer battery life), the assumed daily load would be:

• 1,957 AH * 48 volt system * 0.85 typical inverter eff * 1/2 days storage * 0.50 maximum discharge = 19,961 Watt*Hours per day

And if you assume a minimum of 4 hours of sun per day:

• 19,961 Watt*Hours per day * 1/0.52 off grid AC system eff * 1/4 hours per day minimum sun = 9,697 Watt Array "break even" size

Your present solar array planned size of 7,680 Watts is a bit on the small size for a full time off grid system--You should check the charging requirements for for your battery cells--Again, typically 10% minimum rate of charge is recommended for flooded cell lead acid deep cycle/traction type batteries.

If your area has a lot of sun, and you are OK with running the diesel genset every day (or at least once per week) to help ensure the battery bank is properly charged (try for >90% state of charge every few to ~7 days, avoid lots of cycling below 50% state of charge) and/or you have lots of sun most of the year--It is possible your present array is large enough for full time off grid.

Your Studer AC inverter+charger only has a maximum of 100 Amp charging output--So, if you plan on 10% rate of charge, you would need a second inverter or a separate AC battery charger for ~200 amps of charging.

The above "rules of thumb" are based on C20 battery capacity rating... Your C20 rating (I think) is ~1,800 AH--So my numbers above should be a bit less.

http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/product/23648/ngs6021960hs0fac-(a602/1960c).html

Also, it appears your batteries are GEL/VRLA batteries. In the US, we tend to stay away from GEL batteries because of low charging current (5% rate of charge for C20 capacity). However, it appears that your batteries are rated to 35% rate of charge @ C10 capacity--And are designed/rated for solar charging (be careful not to charge a too high of voltage, and for warm/hot environments, you have to derate the maximum charging voltage). Here is the charging document for A602/1960 GEL type batteries:

http://www.sonnenschein.org/PDF files/GelHandbookPart2.pdf

I do not know much about European GEL/VRLA type batteries--So, you will have to work with your battery and solar charge controller suppliers to ensure that your system is designed correctly.

-Bill

Andrew,

I do not work for NAWS... I am just a volunteer here (~800 miles away from Flagstaff Az, USA). You would have to ask NAWS directly. I simply do not know anything about NAWS other than what I see on their website and when they post here on occasion (and when working with them on Forum Software/operational questions).

-Bill

I don't know European Brands--I live in the United States and I never worked in the solar industry.

The brands you listed, as far as I know, are good (German?) brands. But I do not have any knowledge about their products.

The problem is, specifics. SMA is a very good German brand of inverters... But when a specific product is used in a specific application, sometimes problems occur (not pointing fingers--Just recent examples of people having questions).

SMA too sophisticated to be any good?
Weird Data from SMA Inverter

It can be design issues by the manufacturer. It can be design/installation issues caused by the local engineer/installer.

Is the system set up right

You can pay lots of good money on the installation, and have very poor results... Or even a great installation, and very poor maintenance/operational practices that cause the system to fail. A system operated by one person may work well--Same system and same loads operated by somebody else can fail to perform.

It takes dedication, training, and knowledge (as well as good equipment, system design, etc.) to have a sucessful installation. A failure in any one of those areas--And you can have $100,000 of scrap in a matter of weeks.

With the size system you are proposing--The vendor(s) should be able to give you references for similar systems that their products have been used in and have been responsible for installing. And check the references--Ideally in the area you will be installing the system--Has the system performed well, have they received support from the vendors/installers? Has there been any problems/issues--Especially unresolved issues.

-Bill

I do not work for NAWS, or any solar vendor.

For large systems, understanding the basics can be Big help when talking with solar designers and sales people.

If this is your first system, that is Lot of money to be responsible for. There are a lot of details to get right. Get few wrong, and the system may have problems.

-Bill

I am very sorry Andrew--I guess I am just getting you more frustrated.

I do not have any more answers than I have given above. We cannot give you a 1 year class (or a 4 year degree) on electrical and solar engineering in a forum. There are books and seminars (some very good ones are held by equipment manufacturers).

I suggest you find a local installer/engineer and interview them about your design. Trying to buy equipment and fly it several thousand miles to a remote installation can be very difficult and risky.

There are methods that can help. One way is to build the system where you live (in this case, perhaps buy a used shipping container). And setup it up/test/qualify. After you have done that, then pack up the solar array+genset+etc. into the container and ship the whole thing in one unit to the destination.

Regarding Solar Books:

What's a Good Beginners Book?

From the above thread:

FL SUN wrote: »

This is a link to a PV textbook I find very informative. It was a requirement for the FL contractor's exam I took last month. It even has a very good interactive CD with a bunch of informative extras. A quick search on-line shows this book goes for about $75.00 USD everywhere.

Don't forget nothing compares to OJT when it comes to installation. It's always best to apply in the field what you've learned from a good textbook first.
[URL="http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?show=HARDCVR W/COMP MEDIA:NEW:*****26912879:75.00"]http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/bibli...26912879:75.00[/URL]

TnAndy wrote: »

Rick,

Here a good "textbook" on solar......it actually IS a textbook for some solar courses, and is set up that way with practice questions at the end of each chapter, but it's also a good self guide as to the basics of components and how they mesh together to make a system. Worth the money, IMHO.

Solar Book Here

Some information on NEC and how it applies to solar power:

PV and the 2005 NEC -- Reference Document

And, of course, the NEC Code Book (current edition or version that is used by your locality).

Our host has a Book they recommend:

Book - The New Solar Electric Home

PPS: From another poster:

KeithWHare wrote: »

I recommend "Photovoltaics: Design and Installation Manual" from Solar Energy International. This does a pretty decent job of explaining everything except for battery banks.

Keith

PPPS: From another website, I saw this Boatowner's Illustrated Electrical Handbook recommended.

PPPPS:

rollandelliott wrote: »

according to wikipedia once it is adopted into law by a particular govt agency it becomes public knowledge

http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/ga_electric.pdf

is one link

there are many more specific to certain states/cities here

http://bulk.resource.org/codes.gov/

May 26th, 2013:

ChrisOlson wrote: »

I always recommend Hugh's recipe book
http://scoraigwind.com/axialplans/index.htm

It has the "plans" on how to build six different turbines. But Hugh also goes into the theory in explaining why the turbines are built the way they are, and it's written by a master that has spent most of his life working with wind power.

I don't know about the Otherpower book - I have only read excerpts of it and never the whole thing.
--
Chris

June 30th, 2013:

ChrisOlson wrote: »

Ed Lenz's website is probably the best resource for building a small microturbine. Ed has articles on there covering three-phase basics, along with several small windpower projects he has done, etc.
http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/

--
Chris

July 19th, 2013:

Panamretiree wrote: »

A good manual on boat electrics is: Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual: How to Maintain, Repair, and Improve Your Boat's Essential Systems by Nigel Calder. Goes through all issues that you can be confronted with, including solar, wind and hydro power. Has considerable information on grounding and bonding in a boat. Approximately $36.00 on Amazon.com.

Cheers

June 19th, 2014:

Both PNjunction and vtMaps have given a "thumbs up on":

PNjunction wrote: »

. you might want to take a look at this manual:

http://www.samlexamerica.com/product...il.aspx?pid=60

Covers FAR more than just the controller and goes into details about solar setups in general. Best I've ever seen, and devoid of hype. Highly recommended, ......

June 24th, 2014:

stephendv wrote: »

Energy Unlimited by Victron is a good introduction: http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/...limited-EN.pdf focussed on marine systems but 90% same for land based off-grid.

February 10th, 2015

Surfpath wrote: »

HX,
This was an excellent resource I came across that addresses your question [wire insulation/temperature requirements]:

http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electrical/Resources/solution-center/technical_library/BUS_Ele_Tech_Lib_Conductor_Ampacities.pdf

-Bill

I have no idea.

Even if you pay $70k for parts, you may need to pay another $70k for design, labor, set up, test, break down, shipping, insurance, customs taxes, on site installation, etc.

This is not an inexpensive/low risk project.

-Bill