Ah capacity is reduced while battery voltage and SG good

2»

Comments

  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2016 #32
    Would temporarily putting 2 or 3 inches of insulation on and around the temp sensor give a better reading until a permanent solution is found?
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • elesaver
    elesaver Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    Is it possible to use a Dremmel type tool to remove a section of the case so that you can have direct access to the mid section of a middle cell/s so you can properly mount the RTS?
    I was wondering about a way to get into that case, Westbranch.  I'm going to give that some thought and check the thickness of the battery case.  You're brilliant!  I'll keep you posted.
    1st system:  24Vsystem with 8 X 300W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 150, Outback VFX 3524 with mate, 2 X 12V  fforklift batteries in series 938 aH,  (Outback PSX transformer, Honda EU3000is...not currently hooked up but available if/when needed)

    2nd system:  24V system with 4 X 310W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 200, Cotek 1500W pure sine inverter, Trojan 125 batteries (8 available but "currently" using 4)

  • elesaver
    elesaver Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    Raj174 said:
    Would temporarily putting 2 or 3 inches of insulation on and around the temp sensor give a better reading until a permanent solution is found?
    It would seem that the temperature of the case would be what is measured.  Even if the electrolyte in the batteries would begin to
    warm, the case would not reflect that unless they were REALLY hot.  But, that's just my thinking.  As with many things, I could be
    terribly wrong.
    1st system:  24Vsystem with 8 X 300W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 150, Outback VFX 3524 with mate, 2 X 12V  fforklift batteries in series 938 aH,  (Outback PSX transformer, Honda EU3000is...not currently hooked up but available if/when needed)

    2nd system:  24V system with 4 X 310W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 200, Cotek 1500W pure sine inverter, Trojan 125 batteries (8 available but "currently" using 4)

  • cgserrant
    cgserrant Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Please don't try to cut the steal case that is 1/4 steal with a dremel as it takes a very steady hand not to cut into the battery cell. Trust me I have tried and had to replace a cell. The best way to get very close to electrolight temperature is to mount on the side of the case using a hot glue gun and foem insulation as the folks on this forum have indicated as if you mount to the bus bars/cell joiners it wiill show the temp way off under heavey charging ie ( as my system I can see 155amps peak during Bulk) that heats up the interconnects very quickly but is not showing actual temperature of the internal of the battery,When I test my electro light temputure compared to my wattplott software its off by about 1F from what wattplot is showing. 
    Flexware 500 with 2 Vfx3524 120/240 5 Flexmax 80s Ags with Generac 16kv Propane. 1089 AH General forklift battery. At current 20 220 watt Evergreen ES-E SERIES. FN-DC, Mate 2 Hub 10 Runnig wattplot for loging Locate In the Cayman Islands B.W.I
  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    elesaver, 
    I meant, put the insulation around the sensor where it's attached to the post, probably not a long term solution, but it should help get a better reading in the mean time. 
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • cgserrant
    cgserrant Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭✭
    The Only issue as I stated before with attaching the sensor to the post is under heavy charge/bulk amps it will heat up and give a 8 degrees F temperature above the battery electrolight temps. It is a better solution than what Elesaver had before as I do agree.This is just from my own experience with forklift batteries that I am running. .Also as I am locate in the Cayman Islands/Caribbean I watch temperature very closely as some days here it get so hot that the tar on the roads will melt. RAj174 I am just trying to help elesaver not to make the same mistake like  I did by trying to be a machine shop with  persuasion instrument and just cut metal case. As it cost me a bit to replace the cell( Ie Fly in from the states then tools to replace the cell). The steal case that the batteries are protected with is a good thermal conductor. Elesaver just pick a spont in the middle of the metal case that feels the warmest during charging. Then use a grinder and remove the paint from that area. Then Attach the sensor with double stick tap thin. Or use a glue gun then notch out a whole in foem and cover the sensor or some sort of insulation. Some sensor's I use ac duct board that is R14.
    Flexware 500 with 2 Vfx3524 120/240 5 Flexmax 80s Ags with Generac 16kv Propane. 1089 AH General forklift battery. At current 20 220 watt Evergreen ES-E SERIES. FN-DC, Mate 2 Hub 10 Runnig wattplot for loging Locate In the Cayman Islands B.W.I
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can't you pull the cell out of the case, cut a hole for sensor, drop cell back in and putty it up ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • cgserrant
    cgserrant Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭✭
    He could do so with drilling out the inter connects and then removing the cell. Very good suggestion if he is can remelt the led for the inter connect. Ie weld the cell connection back in.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8oiMoP5A1E
    Flexware 500 with 2 Vfx3524 120/240 5 Flexmax 80s Ags with Generac 16kv Propane. 1089 AH General forklift battery. At current 20 220 watt Evergreen ES-E SERIES. FN-DC, Mate 2 Hub 10 Runnig wattplot for loging Locate In the Cayman Islands B.W.I
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016 #40
    I have a couple bts's that I have disassembled and removed the thermistor intact. Usually just siliconed in. Buy a extra cap from a battery supply and find a glass vial ( perfume or small test tube, I used glass, but plastic should work ) the size you need and your good to go. You need to drill through the cap carefully so you don't block the venting. Insert the vial in the cap and thermistor in the vial and seal it in with hot glue or silicone. You then will have the exact temperature of the electrolyte. This is one I used a Digital Thermometer on, but a bts / rts is the same.

    I originally got interested in bts / rts as a way to change the fixed charging voltage range of algorithms on flooded, agm, gel type perimeters. By adding a trimmer, potentiometer or ballast resistance you can re-scale the voltage output by changing the reference. Today most equipment has custom settable voltage, so it's not something you have to do. What I have found with LiFePO4 you can remove the thermistor and use a potentiometer as a way to fine tune and calibrate the charge voltage to 100th of a volt.







  • Anawa
    Anawa Solar Expert Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    Very, very interesting. BC, perhaps you should market this device, I would buy it!

    Darn, and I was just getting ready to figure-out how I was going to slap my BTS on the side of my big-ole forklift batt and wrap it in insulation and you come along with this stroke of genius! Now I'm goin back to the shop to look around...

    Got it any words of wisdom or precautions on the down-side of this device?

    Paul
    in Georgia




    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2016 #42
    They work fine, I have never had issue with any of the ones I have installed. They are great in a RV or Boat where the batteries are in a compartment and are hard to get to.

    Go slow when you dissemble the bts, xantrex / trace / schneider have a plate with screws and the thermistor is buried in silicone. Outback you can cut the edge on the plastic case off and pry it open. As I remember, havn't done one in a while.

    I chuck up the tops in a lathe and center drill them, again you have to took at the venting and make sure your are not going to block it. I sized my holes so the vial is friction fit and can slide with a little pressure. Most of the caps are two pieces, the top and a plate that allows the droplets to drop back into the cell. I drill both at the same time by going through the plate end first. Some tops are different sizes and different locking scheme, I think what you see above is a bayonet 1/4 turn type that most batteries use. Some Industrial use one that slide in and have locking lugs.

    I think that is a 10mm x 100mm vial, it will slide up or down in the cap so you can adjust it's depth. If it's to long, it would hit the plates. A forklift battery has limited clearance in the reserve over the plates. So measure carefully or make it adjustable. I used a syringe with silicone to seal the thermistor in, I also used hot glue adhesive on some. I once thought about using some fluid in them, but it's not necessary, as they are very sensitive.

    Marketing stuff is a pain, I still manufacture the one product I have a patent on and it's more work that I want.


  • Anawa
    Anawa Solar Expert Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    Roger, BC and thanks again for sharing your "stuff". I think I may give this a go.

    Paul
    in Georgia
    Paul 
    in Georgia

    System 1: PV- 410w Evergreen, Mppt- Blue Sky Solar Boost, Batt - 225ah Deka AGM, 12v led house lighting,
    System 2: PV- 215w Kyocera, PWM - Morningstar PS30, Batt- 225ah Deka GC's, 12v led house lighting, Dankoff 12v water pump,
    System 3: PV- 1.5kw Kyocera, Grundfos 11 SQF well pump, 3000 gal above ground water storage, dom water & irrigation,
    System 4: PV- 6.1kw Kyocera, Mppt- Outback FM80-2ea, Inverter- Outback FX3648-2ea, Batt- 804ah GB traction, Grundfos BMQE booster pump 240v, Mitsibushi mini-splits 240v, 18k and 15k
  • elesaver
    elesaver Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    OK, now we're making progress!  I wlll definitely look into this process of creating a sensor via the battery cap.  Of course my batteries have the "new fangled" eye so that you can tell at a glance when fluid is needed.  I'll have to replace one of them with a regular cap and this new gizmo when I get one made.

    I do want to update the progress about my original concern of aH being low.  The biggest cause, I believe, was the wrong ending amps number from the manufacturer.  I am "tweaking" that.  The temperature these days has been glorious.  Yesterday was in the 60's and today was the same.  The problem has become that there were multiple factors  of change so it's hard to know which was the issue...perhaps they all contributed?   The temperature itself was warmer PLUS I lowered the ending amps and raised the absorb voltage and time.  The aH this afternoon were back to "full."  The SG has returned to 1.285 in all cells so that's good to go.    Now, if I can get the bts device as talked about by Blackcherry, I think I can "nail" this thing. :smile:

    I really appreciate all the help.  I have other questions but let's not overload the forum right now.  Thanks again!
    1st system:  24Vsystem with 8 X 300W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 150, Outback VFX 3524 with mate, 2 X 12V  fforklift batteries in series 938 aH,  (Outback PSX transformer, Honda EU3000is...not currently hooked up but available if/when needed)

    2nd system:  24V system with 4 X 310W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 200, Cotek 1500W pure sine inverter, Trojan 125 batteries (8 available but "currently" using 4)

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    I have a couple bts's that I have disassembled and removed the thermistor intact. Usually just siliconed in. Buy a extra cap from a battery supply and find a glass vial ( perfume or small test tube, I used glass, but plastic should work ) the size you need and your good to go. You need to drill through the cap carefully so you don't block the venting. Insert the vial in the cap and thermistor in the vial and seal it in with hot glue or silicone. You then will have the exact temperature of the electrolyte. This is one I used a Digital Thermometer on, but a bts / rts is the same.

    I originally got interested in bts / rts as a way to change the fixed charging voltage range of algorithms on flooded, agm, gel type perimeters. By adding a trimmer, potentiometer or ballast resistance you can re-scale the voltage output by changing the reference. Today most equipment has custom settable voltage, so it's not something you have to do. What I have found with LiFePO4 you can remove the thermistor and use a potentiometer as a way to fine tune and calibrate the charge voltage to 100th of a volt.








    Hi Bc04,

    Thanks for adding this solution to the discussion.

    Looks like a great solution,  especially for Forklift batteries.

    Thanks,  Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Bill, this thread is sticking for me at BC04's picture  of RTS install.....
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • elesaver
    elesaver Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    I need some clairty in making an RTS as Blackcherry has done.  I want to use the midnite solar remote sensor so that I can plug it into the charge controller.  These little puppies are $35.  There is the flat rectangle that apparently is the sensor or contains the sensor.  I don't want to tear this thing up and then it won't work.  I need to get the sensor small enough to fit into the small vial that is required to immerse into the electrolyte.  Would you think the midnite solar rts can be small enough to do that?  BC has a stand alone temperature monitor which is great but I think it would be better for me to have something that will communicate with the charge controller directly.  Would the kind of device use in BC's invention be able to be wired to fit into the midnite solar charge controller?  Hopefully, it's clear what I'm trying to do.  Thanks for any help.
    1st system:  24Vsystem with 8 X 300W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 150, Outback VFX 3524 with mate, 2 X 12V  fforklift batteries in series 938 aH,  (Outback PSX transformer, Honda EU3000is...not currently hooked up but available if/when needed)

    2nd system:  24V system with 4 X 310W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 200, Cotek 1500W pure sine inverter, Trojan 125 batteries (8 available but "currently" using 4)

  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2016 #48
    All the thermistor's are about the same size, that of a small pea or the head of a kitchen match. If they are encased in silicone you may have to trim some off to make them smaller. That said, I have not seen a Midnite rts, but I understand they are the same as the Outback. The Outback I did didn't have any heat shrink, they used the silicone as insulation. Xanterx uses heat shrink and has a resistor in series on theirs.

    Here is a thread from yesterday.

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/350340/building-a-battery-cap-temperature-sensor#latest




  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    I have notified our Vanilla support guy about this problem (they agree that it is happening, not sure what they will do about it)... They are looking at it now... However, this time, for me, the thread did position to the next unread post.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • elesaver
    elesaver Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    Here is a link for some 3" X 3/8" test tubes on ebay.  I think they may work.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/251735227124?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

    1st system:  24Vsystem with 8 X 300W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 150, Outback VFX 3524 with mate, 2 X 12V  fforklift batteries in series 938 aH,  (Outback PSX transformer, Honda EU3000is...not currently hooked up but available if/when needed)

    2nd system:  24V system with 4 X 310W panels, Midnite Solar combiner box, Midnite Solar mini-dc disconnect, Midnite Solar Classic 200, Cotek 1500W pure sine inverter, Trojan 125 batteries (8 available but "currently" using 4)

  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    They should work fine. How much is sticking out doesn't matter much.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Bill, ditto for me today too
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada