Normal longevity of Outback 3648 Inverter and FM80?
softdown
Solar Expert Posts: 3,896 ✭✭✭✭
Sorry....not going to be that easy. Couple more questions:
1) This is mounted in a cool below ground location in the Colorado mountains. Average temperature is 55F. Expected life span?
2) Pretend it is mounted in an Alabama sunroom this time. Can get slightly over 100F in this location. Expected life span?
3) Pretend the inverter is smaller. Life span?
4) Pretend the inverter is larger. Life span?
1) This is mounted in a cool below ground location in the Colorado mountains. Average temperature is 55F. Expected life span?
2) Pretend it is mounted in an Alabama sunroom this time. Can get slightly over 100F in this location. Expected life span?
3) Pretend the inverter is smaller. Life span?
4) Pretend the inverter is larger. Life span?
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
Comments
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There will be lots of guesses, but heat, humidity, and salts are the environmental enemies of electronics (throw in vibration if mounted on something moving)
So below ground at 55 degrees, but very high humidity might be a problem, though I would point you to Outback's sealed units.
Over 100 degrees? I think Outback's will limit output if they get too warm. If it's coastal, go with a sealed unit, salt air is the worse!
Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
The humidy right now is 16%. This is an alpine desert.
I'm just looking for reasonable guesses.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
With my luck probably a couple days beyond the warranty on everything.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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We have all experienced that. Bought my stuff from AW&S, our host, I think they spring for the five year warranty. It took me over three years to get around to installing it. Needed the sunroom and roof first.
Got lucky. System works almost perfectly so far. Very, very little that I would change. I would likely put the batteries on the other side of the wall to keep them cooler.
Seems like I have read to expect 5-10 years from quality inverters and charge controllers?
littleharbor2 said:With my luck probably a couple days beyond the warranty on everything.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
I would expect 10-12 years as a median life time of an inverter. I think I'm going on 12 now with my current Prosine, though I've replace the fan in it. I've heard of some of the old Trace still running out there. I don't have any idea about an MPPT type charge controller, but I have a 25+ year old PWM charge controller that I pulled working about 7 years ago, it was still working about 3 years ago. (Specialty Concepts, they're still in business, but mostly make small PWM CC's now)Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites, Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects. -
I installed my Trace 2512 SB around 1995. Has been in continuous use ( mainly standby) in a box outside the house. Works perfect, may be the only thing I ever bought that hasn't broken. Thank you Trace engineers!
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Trace DR1524 working fine since 1994Island cottage solar system with appriximately 2500 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1.3kw facing southwest 170watt ancient Arco's facing due south. All panels in parallel for a 24 volt system. Trace DR1524 MSW inverter which has performed flawlessly since 1994. Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller four 467A-h AGM batteries. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge 1/4hp GSW piston pump. My 31st year.
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For planning purposes we use 10 years as the replacement interval for all RE electronics. Anything you get beyond that is considered a bonus. As others have said if you willing to do some rudimentary parts replacements, theres no reason why they couldnt live indefinately. Electrolytics are the archiles heel of all electronics these days.
1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar -
Looks like Trace has been built to last. Any old Outback units out there?
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
My neighbor has a VFX3524 from 2004. I still have my 2006 model although with all new boards because of lightning. I can't blame the lightning on Outback.
There should be more older Trace units out there... Trace predates Outback. Many of the same people.Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M -
My Trace SW4024 was built in 1999. I was the one to open the box, peel back the original wrapping and energize it in 2015. I get the feeling it will probably outlive me.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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Sat in the box for 16 years. Dang. I'll bet a lot of people take a number of years to get their system operational.
ittleharbor2 said:My Trace SW4024 was built in 1999. I was the one to open the box, peel back the original wrapping and energize it in 2015. I get the feeling it will probably outlive me.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
I bought this inverter from a guy who had it sitting in a warehouse and had forgot about it. I have had it about 3 years now just waiting for a good application for it. That came in early 2015 when I found a really cool beach house in Baja
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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That is a very fine house indeed. Stone is my favorite exterior. If you enjoy views of a harbor from the second floor, I shall be overcome with jealousy.
Where are the panels?
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
I installed my Trace SW 4024 Nov/2000. It has operated 24/7 (off grid) flawlessly, powering a 1200 sg ft home and a 900 sq ft garage with all the appliances (Propane fridge and clothes dryer) and power tools normally used. Thinking I should replace it this summer with a new Magnum unit.....just so I don't have to do that maybe next January when it's -20 degrees and I have to wait a week for it because of bad weather. Opinions on the Magnum 4024, please.
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softdown said:That is a very fine house indeed. Stone is my favorite exterior. If you enjoy views of a harbor from the second floor, I shall be overcome with jealousy.
Where are the panels?
Stone was a fine choice as there are minimal painting and termite issues. No need to get jealous, the only view from the front of the house is the vast waveless Sea of Cortez (Known as Lake Cortez by the locals)
The two bay garage across the courtyard houses the equipment and array.
2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.
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Just finished replacing our four Xantrex 5548 SW Plus inverters installed in 2005 with four Schneider XW 5548 Plus inverters.
The Trace inverters ran 24/7 for over 10 years without any major problems. The Schneider inverters have some very big shoes to fill. Also, replaced our Outback MPPT 80 CCs' with Schneider charge controllers.
I believe the Trace units would have lasted longer.
Counting on the newer technology to be incrementally better with the same reliability. We'll see.
Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
So you replaced the inverters and charge controllers while they were still working...it looks that way. Or did the charge controllers start failing?
Mangas said:Just finished replacing our four Xantrex 5548 SW Plus inverters installed in 2005 with four Schneider XW 5548 Plus inverters.
The Trace inverters ran 24/7 for over 10 years without any major problems. The Schneider inverters have some very big shoes to fill. Also, replaced our Outback MPPT 80 CCs' with Schneider charge controllers.
I believe the Trace units would have lasted longer.
Counting on the newer technology to be incrementally better with the same reliability. We'll see.
First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries -
.... keep the operating ones that were removed for emergency use?Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M
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After 10 years figured about 75 percent useful life. Given our remote location, I'm not one to run out the clock. Just built that way.
Mountain Don, I would have kept the old inverters but the new technology and equipment won't accomodate interchanging old with new. We considered doing that too.
In my opinion, I think engineers are building too much complexity and smart technology into the solar equipment which is why I really admired Trace/Xantrex products. Probably, I'm just old fashioned but where we are located experiencing simple equipment problems can result in major headaches and cold nights.
For us reliabilty, durability and simplicity of operation makes the most sense. What's simple for the engineers can be challenging for guys like me.Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
I just changed out a water heater that was functioning perfectly well. It was 14 years old, probably good for a while longer, but I had time to do it now.Mangas said:.......... I'm not one to run out the clock. Just built that way.
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Too bad about changing technology making the old off grid electrical parts not worth bothering with. At least with our cabin, it is a recreational property and we can just pack up and go home 66 miles.Northern NM, 624 watts PV, The Kid CC, GC-2 batteries @ 24 VDC, Outback VFX3524M -
Glad you mentioned the water heater. Ours is the same vintage. Going to replace that too!
Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
The technology has changed and there were plenty of business reasons to end support on the old SW line. The XW is far easier to support, is built to convection cool in a fan failure, and I still have not had one fail or heard of one that was installed properly. I have one in Arizona that has been in an uncooled shed since 2007."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Good to know Dave.
I recognize technology is rapidly moving the industry forward and if reliabilty is part of the innovation, I'm all for it. Without reliability and durability, I'll pass on the bells and whistles so to speak. Seemed to me the documentation was geared more towards grid tie applications and less so for off grid. I passed some thoughts and experiences allong to the manufacturers. To their credit, they were always responsive,
accessible and helpful getting our questions answered.
In your opinion do you think the newer inverter and CC technologies will be as or
more robust? I don't have enough knowledge to reach an opinion.Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers -
The XW-80-600V CC is built like a tank!
It is huge and also convection cooled so that if the fan failed, natural heat rising comes out the top and the inlet is at the bottom pulls in cooler air. Running at high voltage gives an offgrid user many options over time and is easy to install.
In my opinion and from some buds at Schneider, the XW plus series Inverter/charger is just an old XW that tailors the cooling and setpoint parameters for more power. Mainly aimed at the outback radian. It really is the same as it always has been since development in mid 2005 with more bells. As you said, they always should have built the XW line with firmware for offgrid or hybrid grid-tie. Believe me they know this but they are of a different opinion and offgrid is just a small slice.
Since these "boxes" are all based on DSP, the specs can change with the design goals and the tweaks are all done with software and later tweaked with firmware. They are very good at beta testing this gear before the user gets them.
The -60-150 volt CC is still a very formidable charger and I had one DOA and a failure from a water heater leaking into the charger in over 60 installations."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Interesting.
You're right about my two XW 80s 600s. They're huge compared to the Outbacks we replaced. Hopefully they will help prolong battery life.
One of these days maybe they'll offer upgraded off grid firmware that I can load into the 5548s'. Given the system's size and what it is running the engineers were very interested in our retrofit. Asked us to monitor the system over time with feedback. Glad to help. Probably should have installed a Combox but the solar mechanicals are located too far from internet access.
I think as storage costs improve in the future (get more competitive with utility costs) manufacturers will be encouraged to better support off grid applications. In my opinion it's just a matter of time. Presently, I estimate our utility savings over 5-6 years offsets the cost of our two battery banks for the same period. Just windage but if they can increase storage longevity say 30+ percent better and hold the unit price in line the off grid market will substantially open up.Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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