Comparison between 3 different L16 type batteries.

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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #32

    Hi IB,


    Have not been to the Link,  as assume that it is a commercial.


    The type of battery type selected for an application is very specific to that application.   AGM and Flooded batteries,  often,  are not simple equivalents,  differentiated only by price.


    For the general off-grid battery user,  AGM batteries can be difficult to manage,  especially in parallel strings.   They almost always have less cycle-life at a given DOD,  and so on.


    For some applications,  AGM is a clear winner,  if they are carefully managed (just as are FLAs for some other applications).


    Just another opinion,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    #33
    Resurrecting a 2 year old thread to promote your website as a first post?
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #34
    Lets see if he will address some of your questions... Not a lot of technical in the Blog link.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #35

    Has anyone had longer term experience with those specific AGM batteries, specifically to reliability and durability? 

    I realize that AGM technology has improved but with our sizeable battery bank investment the L16 flooded variety has been very reliable (and forgiving) over the years despite maintenance.





    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #36
    I watch over a few AGM systems. Mainly because one guy is merchant marine and another is in a really small space.  They last about 5 years and then lose capacity and have bad cells. I can get flooded L16's at about $300 in either 6V 400AH or the 2V  1,100AH and so it seems silly to me get something I can't measure SG on and get 10 years or more of life. I wish I did not have to spend the 15 minutes a month doing maintenance but I know I would spend more time with an AGM making sure the voltage was perfect.


    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Mangas
    Mangas Solar Expert Posts: 547 ✭✭✭✭
    #37

    Good analysis Dave.

    I'm just not confident enough yet to switch to AGMs.

    Maintenance on 64 L16s' really is not a big deal.  About 1 1/2 hours, three or four times a year.  




    Ranch Off Grid System & Custom Home: 2 x pair stacked Schneider XW 5548+ Plus inverters (4), 2 x Schneider MPPT 80-600 Charge Controllers, 2 Xanbus AGS Generator Start and Air Extraction System Controllers, 64 Trojan L16 REB 6v 375 AH Flooded Cel Batteries w/Water Miser Caps, 44 x 185 Sharp Solar Panels, Cummins Onan RS20 KW Propane Water Cooled Genset, ICF Custom House Construction, all appliances, Central A/C, 2 x High Efficiency Variable Speed three ton Central A/C 220v compressors, 2 x Propane furnaces, 2 x Variable Speed Air Handlers, 2 x HD WiFi HVAC Zoned System Controllers
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #38
    Next set, try the 1,100 AH's. Only 24 cells to look at! Obviously don't use the Trojan 1,100's . Good batteries but bonehead design with 3 cells per 2V battery.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #39
    Has the lifetime of AGM increased at all yet ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #40
    mike95490 said:
    Has the lifetime of AGM increased at all yet ?
    5 years is what I hear and experience if perfectly managed at max DCV. The cost for an L16 400 ah AGM is better but unless you are gone for months, have really small power room, or can't follow basic directions you should use flooded. Money to burn should be on the list as there are those who feel it is worth it.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #41
    If youre going anywhere from FLA for the reasons mentioned, it would be LFP. The numbers on the lithiums are now pretty good. Higher up front cost should pan out with lifetime performance.
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2015 #42
    zoneblue said:
    If youre going anywhere from FLA for the reasons mentioned, it would be LFP. The numbers on the lithiums are now pretty good. Higher up front cost should pan out with lifetime performance.
    The LFP  L16 is available for normal offgrid people like you and me in New Zealand?  It sure is not here in the positive latitudes.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • LyleT
    LyleT Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭
    #43
    Hi. Just looking for some help here. I have 8 x 6v 370ah batteries for our off-grid solar system. I purchased a BMV 700 battery monitor and I need to provide a ah figure. Would it be per battery or a combined ah (370x6=2220ah)? Thanks
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2017 #44
    Depends on the voltage of your system.

     48 volt= 1series string =370 ah
     24 volt = 2 series strings = 740 ah
    12 volt, 4 series strings (if so you should have 2 volt batteries) = 1480 ah

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #45
    Are you still out on Catalina Littleharbor2 ?   Must be wild out in the anchorage! Hope you are in Baja....
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #46
    Getting dumped on here on the Island. The seas are actually very calm, just lots of rain.  Sure wish I was in Baja. We were supposed to go after Christmas and next week but have had to cancel both trips Shooting for February.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭✭
    #47
    Rayovac solar batteries? Never heard of them. Likely made by one of the majors.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • Saggys
    Saggys Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
    #48
    I have been using 2-Rayovac L-16's for the last year and a half with good results. They were available locally and cheap so I thought I would try them, so far so good.
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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭✭
    #49
    littleharbor2 said:
    Getting dumped on here on the Island. The seas are actually very calm, just lots of rain.  Sure wish I was in Baja. We were supposed to go after Christmas and next week but have had to cancel both trips Shooting for February.
    Catalina Island or the Baja peninsula? Life is tough!
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017 #50
    softdown said:
    littleharbor2 said:
    Getting dumped on here on the Island. The seas are actually very calm, just lots of rain.  Sure wish I was in Baja. We were supposed to go after Christmas and next week but have had to cancel both trips Shooting for February.
    Catalina Island or the Baja peninsula? Life is tough!

    Someone's gotta do it. I'm happy to be that guy. Heading back south for a month in a few weeks. Personally I'll take Baja over Catalina any time. Been living on this tourist trap for 45 years now and am not happy with the new Wrigley regime. They are turning this Island into a "high end resort" and the way things are going it is going to be cheaper to vacation in Hawaii than here.
    We have paid as much as $7.69 a gallon for gas, Guess who runs the only gas station?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    #51
    I used spend good portions of my summers down in Avalon in the late 60's. Captain Cooper with the Catalina Island Co. was the "go to" guy to get inland travel passes and gate keys. We helped him out now and then, so he was lenient with us so we got explore the roads on two wheels. We surfed Shark Harbor when the break was good.

    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #52
    Ahh. You were one of Captain Coopers Troopers. We in the IMC, Islanders Motorcycle Club, had a song about him but to type out the lyrics here I would have to Bleep out half the words.

     Spent my adolescent, and, actually all most my years here surfing, camping, hiking, fishing, 4 wheeling, riding motocross and waterskiing. We were too busy to get into trouble, most of the time.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017 #53
    I know the song well :smiley: (It ends with semi rhyming vulgarities  "XXXX, XXXX, XXXX, XXXX , we're the IMC!!)

    Nah, our "trouble" was just mischievous stuff. What year did you arrive there? As I recall, the Class of '68 had 9 students graduate.
    I rarely got up to the isthmus because the mainland girls came in on Big White and the round bottomed Water Taxi's.

    I miss catching Sanddabs about 1/2 mile off the old quarry (using squid for bait) - pan fry in butter and touch of garlic!

    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #54
    Ha ha, that's funny you know the song.

    I got here in 1972, graduated in 76',  lived here ever since.

    Ya, Horny corner (the foot of the pier) holds many fond memories for a lot of us.

    We have gotten partial to White Seabass, Halibut and Bonito shark. Not to mention Lobster and Abalone. Not bad fare when you are camping on the backside of the Island.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭✭
    #55
    littleharbor2 said:
    Ha ha, that's funny you know the song.

    I got here in 1972, graduated in 76',  lived here ever since.

    Ya, Horny corner (the foot of the pier) holds many fond memories for a lot of us.

    We have gotten partial to White Seabass, Halibut and Bonito shark. Not to mention Lobster and Abalone. Not bad fare when you are camping on the backside of the Island.
    '76 Graduates Represent!
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #56
    softdown said:
    littleharbor2 said:
    Ha ha, that's funny you know the song.

    I got here in 1972, graduated in 76',  lived here ever since.

    Ya, Horny corner (the foot of the pier) holds many fond memories for a lot of us.

    We have gotten partial to White Seabass, Halibut and Bonito shark. Not to mention Lobster and Abalone. Not bad fare when you are camping on the backside of the Island.
    '76 Graduates Represent!

    Yep, Class of 76' RULES.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Marc Kurth
    Marc Kurth Solar Expert Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017 #57
    Since we have already derailed this 2012 thread:

    You are causing a lot of good memories to surface! We likely overlapped in Avalon because my last trip would have been between '74 and '75. My checkout/certification dive was off of Frog Rock about then.

    Here are some memories that I'll bet you know:
    - The Wild Goose on her own can when she came in. His grand daughters and friends partying on board until dawn.
    - Dick Reineman on his mahogany/teak classic racing cutter "Branta" (He loved to show his considerable skills when the channel was standing up)
    - A local teenage guy named Dana, who's father was the only plumber in Avalon.He rode a classic Yamaha Enduro and was always in the action with the tourist girls.
    - Jack (?) the Harbor Master working hard to help when people who didn't understand what happens when the Santa Ana's came.
    - The swim race competition for the two summer lifeguard jobs - on the worlds smallest beaches flanking the pier......

    Man, that was a long time ago....


    I always have more questions than answers. That's the nature of life.
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017 #58
    No kidding , completely derailed, oops.

     Wild Goose, synonymous with the one and only John Wayne. Unlike todays celebrities he would come into town and mingle with the public. Very nice man. 
     Dick Reineman  doesn't ring a bell.
     Dana Porter, I went to school with him. Sadly committed suicide in the late 70's, or possibly early 80's.
    The "Northeasterns" were Santa Ana winds which could go from 0 to 60, literally in an hour. Caught lots of yachters off guard, especially sailboats which didn't have the power to get out of the harbor and around the backside of the Island. I surfed many a wave in the normally placid waters of Avalon Bay.
     The lifeguards had a pretty easy job in the summer. There aren't lifeguards on the beaches any more but now that they're Lifeguard/Paramedics they are pretty busy dealing with diving and boating accidents of which there are plenty of especially since this place has reached saturation plus level of popularity. Year round tourism these days. Summer is absolutely nuts.
     Marc, I enjoy reminiscing the good old days, Thanks for your questions.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,894 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017 #59
    Ever see Bogie on "Santana" She was all over the place based out of SF.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QimAPSpaDec

    We spent a few months there in 93 on Astraea. Easier fishing south :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭✭
    #60
    Not derailed.....revived after a six year hibernation. You guys are making me homesick for Catalina and I've never even been there.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #61
    Dave Angelini said:
    Ever see Bogie on "Santana" She was all over the place based out of SF.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QimAPSpaDec

    We spent a few months there in 93 on Astraea. Easier fishing south :)

    Can't say that I have, Dave. San Felipe doesn't seem like a big sailing destination with all the shallow water and extreme tides. Don't see many sailboats anyway. I'll agree the LEGAL fishing is better down south.

    Totoaba have been protected and poached for decades but now the Chineese are paying thousands of dollars each for dried Totoaba swim bladders. The poaching continues with authorities being paid off and the last 30 or so Vaquita dolphin will soon be gone forever. Extinct.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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