Surprised by battery water useage......

backroad
backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
I have had my solar set up running for about 4 months after adding my Outback 3524 inverter, MX60 and 12 L16 Crown batteries and 3 130 panels to my existing 3 120 panels and my 6 90 watt panels.

My system is definitely NOT enough. I Have have to run the generator about every day or every other day to try and keep the batteries charged.

Here's the kicker........My batteries have used NO WATER ever...........Any ideas of what gives?

Dennis in Bagdad..........AND I'M STILL NO SOLAR EXPERT............
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Batteries loose water by evaporation (very slowly) and when they reach nearly full charge, they start to electrolyze water, which produces:

    O2 gas
    H gas
    and as all the little bubbles float to the surface and pop, they spray a few teeny tiny droplets of water/acid out too.
    That's where the water goes.

    If you have to run a generator daily, and batteries do not ever fully charge, and get equalized once in a while, they will fail very early in life. Try running the generator to get the bulk of the charge into the batteries in the AM, and let the solar do the slow top-off for the last 20% of the charge.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Sounds like you need to figure out what your usage is. You have 12 kWh of batterys with solar that might give you 4kWh day.

    No water usage means your never recharging the batterys to Absorb state. My guess is your propbably using 8+ kWr day, needing the generator for the difference
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Denis,

    Your post got me thinking it was time to check my electrolyte levels (monthly...35days etc). Added to 18 of 24 cells, from 500ml to 100 ml to zero. I charge aggressively and August was a real chargin' month. You must really be just keeping your head above water (no pun intended) if you don't have to water your batteries...light on the charging.

    The result of all this is...dehumidifier is running in the basement and the still is producing H2O outside (keeps the damp out), just love a sunny day! When you americans send us up some warm air, you don't fool around. I guess it's payback for the Canadian Cold Fronts we sometimes let through from the north ;)

    ralph
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Dennis,

    “No water use” is not a good thing. Combining this with previous posts about low electrolyte SG indicates the battery bank is not being fully recharged on a regular basis.

    One unknown factor is that we don’t have much of an idea about your daily energy requirement. Accordingly, it’s tough to determine if your PV array and generator could ever be enough to meet your requirement.

    For example, assuming 60% system efficiency and the equivalent of 6 hours/day of “full” insolation, your PV array can generate ~4.3 kWh/day of energy. How does this compare with your energy requirement?

    A more specific issue is that I believe your PV array (1,200 W STC) is too small to charge your battery bank (24 V x 1,185 Ah) and meet reasonable off-grid energy requirements. The array’s likely maximum charge current during the AZ summer is probably ~ 30 A. This is but 2.5% of the battery capacity -- way below the 5% minimum target and the 10% to 13% recommended by Trojan Battery.


    The generator will likely be necessary on a regular basis to help recharge the battery bank. My recollection is that you’re using one leg of a 120/240 VAC 5500 W generator to power your 3524. Assuming the charger’s efficiency is ~90% and that it’s pulling the default 18 aac (~power factor corrected) at 120 VAC, it should be supplying ~69 A at 28 VDC. That should help a lot, but, even when added to the 30 A from the PV array, that still just ~8.3% of the battery bank capacity – assuming no downstream loads.

    You may need to experiment with your charging strategy. Specifically, you might try running the generator in the morning, allow the array current to catch up, and keep the generator running for perhaps an hour after the batteries reach absorption voltage. If the PV array alone is able to meet afternoon power requirements and maintain the absorb voltage, then you might be able to turn off the generator until the next morning.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    I knew that no water useage was NOT good. My generator is getting very expensive using about 5 gallons a day.

    I didn't think my electrical useage was really that great.

    19 cu. ft Refrig. Energy Star
    Computer about an hour per day
    Wife's Tv (oops) about 8 hrs. day
    two 24volt electric motors for swamp coolers.
    13 watt lights about 8 hrs. day
    Coffee Maker about 20 min. in morning
    Fish tank with flouresent light 12 hrs. day

    I know the TV is a big thing (27"), and I'm not even running my amp or home theatre since using solar.

    I'm almost thinking something is not right with the inverter or MX60. I was running this stuff with the old batteries, mod. sinewave inv. and the trace controllers and was not doing any worse.

    Since i've even added the 3 130 panels, I thought I would be in good shape. Hum, guess not..........
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Dennis,

    A couple of observations:

    1) I suspect the energy star fridge's energy use in the summer may be higher than rated. Mine is rated at ~1.23 kWh/day, and while I've seen it as low as 1 kWh/day in the late winter, I've also seen it at ~1.8 kWh/day in the mid-summer (high humidity = more defrosting?). With cooler/drier weather and both "boys" back in college, it averaged 1.35 kWh/day over the past seven days.
    2) Yeah, the TV -- and old CRT type? -- may be an issue... anywhere from 1.8 kWh/day to 2.4 kWh/day, I would estimate. Put another way, the fridge and the TV may be consuming most -- if not all -- of the PV system's energy production.
    3) Don't you also have a separate freezer?
    4) The MX60 may not be much help in your AZ location during the summer. With hot PV modules (~35 C / 63 F above ambient) comes reduced module voltage, so there may not be any significant "extra" array voltage available to convert to additional charge current. This is normal PV behavior and not a fault in the MX60 or any other MPPT controller. However, the MX60 should make a difference once the weather is cooler.

    With a 1,200 W STC arrray connected to your 24 V system, your MX60 can easily handle another 400 W (1,600 STC W total) of PV modules, and, considering your environment, probably another 800 W (2,000 W STC total, with MX60 charge current limit set to 70 A). I know that PV modules aren't inexpensive, but expanding your array may need to be part of your overall growth strategy for your system.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    I do appreciate the helpful hints and suggestions as I'm quite a "dolt" when it comes to this stuff.

    As money allows, I will add another 3, 130 watt panels to the current MX60 configuration. I'd really also like to do another MX60 with 6-9 panels. I feel this would do the job. I've been looking at some of the solar trackers, and yes they are expensive.

    Like you mentioned, the cooler wintery weather should ease up on the solar setup. It was the cooler weather that the "OLD" system worked so good. Anyhow, that was $8,000 spent and another $6,000 to $8000 to go.
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Dennis,

    I would think that you could probably add another six “12 V” modules (@ ~ 130 W STC each) to your present system before you’d have to get another MX60. The MX60 is conservatively rated (in my view) to handle a 1,600 W STC array for a “24 V” system. So, you could certainly add three more “12 V”, 130 W modules (~$2K?) to your “36 V” array and stay within that factory guideline.

    But, the combination of your location (hot PV modules = reduced power) and the ability of owners to raise the MX60 output current limit to 70 A (see instructions for the “Charger” settings) should allow you to increase your array size even further. This combination, plus the fact that one of my OutBack forum pals has helped set up a 2 kW array / 24 V system in Colorado, leads to believe that you could add yet another three 130 W modules for a total array size of ~2,000 W STC.

    The “good” news is that adding these six more modules will cost “only” ~$4K. A 2,000 W STC array will be a much better match for your ~24 V x 1,200 Ah battery bank, and it the larger system should be able to supply ~7 kWh/day (2,000 W x 6 hrs/day “full” Sun x 60% system efficiency). A 2,000 W array would likely be the limit for a single MX60 in your 24 V system. If you need more power, it’ll mean another controller and more PV modules.

    HTH, and good luck!
    Jim / crewzer
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  • Lefty Wright
    Lefty Wright Solar Expert Posts: 111 ✭✭
    #10
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Crewzer, when you mention PV wats you follow it by "STC".

    Like your system configuration; 725W STC (637W CEC PTC).

    What do those letters mean?
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    L/W,

    “STC” stands for “Standard Test Conditions”. Most PV manufacturers use this spec for the ratings. In brief, this is a PV module’s output power rating (Vmp x Imp) under “full” Sun and with a PV cell temp of 25 C / 77 F. Since fully illuminated cell temps can run ~35 C / 63 F above ambient, that means ambient temp must be ~-10 C / 14 F in order for the PV module to deliver full power.

    “CEC PTC” is the “PV USA Test Condition” used by the California Energy Commission. In summary PV module power output is based on 20 C / 68 F ambient temperature environment.

    PV module power output is reduced by ~0.4% to 0.5% for every one degree rise in cell temperature. Accordingly, power output at 20 C ambient should be about 12% to 15% less than at -10 C ambient due to the 30 C temperature difference. 636 W CEC PTC is ~88% of 725 W STC, or a reduction of ~12%.

    20 C / 68 F is not a very warm ambient temperature. Accordingly, PV array power performance may be reduced anywhere from 16% to 22% below STC specs when summer mid-day ambient temps are in the 30 C to 35 C (86 F to 95 F) range. A 22% reduction is not unusual in my location in the summer. :cry:


    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Just to be clear, its ONLY the voltage that gets reduced for heat on solar panels not current. So hot tempatures will not reduce the amps the charge controller has to deal with in the OP case
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    What occurs when and if you happen to overload an MX60? Am I going to have a nuclear explosion? :D:D:D
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  • rplarry
    rplarry Solar Expert Posts: 203 ✭✭
    #14
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    In reference to crewzers' refer, a few posts above, I have a 18cf Sears Kenmore refer with ice maker, rated at 392 kw a year, which works out to 1074 watts a day. I just got a Killawatt meter and was playing with it and hooked it to the refer. To my surprise in 24 hours the refer consumed 3108.5 watts. Granted it was hot, 95 ambient, humidity was in the 75% range, and the ice maker was set to Max, but I had no idea that it would be almost triple the rated usage. A real eye opener for me.
    Larry
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #15
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    The Ice Maker can be a large contribution to energy usage... Turn it off, and make sure that the fridge's external coils (if it has them) have been well cleaned or if it uses the metal skin to dissipate heat (like many freezers), that the sides are clear and no boxes/etc. are blocking air flow.

    Also, check that the frost free function is working correctly, that the fridge is not overloaded and blocking internal air circulation, that internal and external fans (if installed) are turning and moving air correctly. Check door seals and doors that they close completely and don't leak air into the cold compartments.

    If, after you do all of this (including temporarily shut off your ice maker during the test), and you are still 2x the Energy Star rating per day (even on hot days), I would suspect that there may be something wrong with your appliance.

    To figure out what to do next--if you are using ~2kWhrs per day of additional energy, and (as an example) you are paying $0.12 per kWh for power, then it is costing you, roughly, $88 per year extra (assuming the high usage is 365 days per year)... May not be worth "fixing", but just monitoring to see if during cool weather the usage goes back down.

    But, if you have A/C and your utility does tiered pricing, you could be paying a tiered price of $0.35 per kWhr--$255 per year...

    Granted, these numbers are probably worst case estimates that assume your excessive energy usage is that same all year long--but it does give you an idea of where you will want to put your money long term--live with it, repairs, or replacement.

    From mucking around earlier, and comparing sites (like www.sunfrost.com), I believe that the Energy Star rating for refrigerators is based on a 90F environment--so to have your numbers 3x that amount at 95F does not look good. And if you look at the SunFrost specs., you will see that for an appliance rated at 1.02kWh/day@90F is rated at 0.77kWhr/day@70F--so this should indicate that there is something wrong with your current refrigerator.

    -Bill

    PS: I should probably add, check your Kill-A-Watt meter too... Plug a known load into it (like a 100 watt light bulb, or a 1.5 kWh heater) and see that it has the appropriate readings (watts, volts, amps).

    Lastly, there is a V*A (volt*amp) mode too... That will read higher for motors (inductive loads draw more current out of phase with the voltage than pure resistive loads like heaters and filament lamps)--but that is not what you pay for. Your meter reads Watts--so you need to make sure that the K-A-W meter is set to watts too (Watt readings will be, roughly ~60% or so of the V*A VoltAmp readings).
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    rplarry...........that a real definite OUCH! Which would explain my situation a whole bunch better, even though I'm a little shy on panels. I'm going to have to save sum money quickly to upgrade again. I don't think gas is going to get cheap again to run my gen.
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......
    Just to be clear, its ONLY the voltage that gets reduced for heat on solar panels not current. So hot temperatures will not reduce the amps the charge controller has to deal with in the OP case
    What occurs when and if you happen to overload an MX60? Am I going to have a nuclear explosion?

    Solar Guppy / Henry is of course correct about the hot array voltage behavior. However, Dennis’ array is wired for “36 V” nominal. So, assuming operation at full STC voltage of ~50 V, the input current to the MX60 from a 2,000 W STC array would be ~40 A Imp. With an NEC limit of 48 A Isc, this will not be a problem for the MX60.

    The possible but quite unlikely 50 V x 40 A input to the MX60 would result in an output of 28 V x 70 A, which is the MX60’s practical operational limit. Once the MX60’s output current exceeds the charger’s setting by ~2 A to 3 A, it electronically limits the output current. So, if you decide to try the 2,000 W array idea, it would be a good idea to set the charger current limit to 67 A.

    I do not usually recommend that people exceed manufacturer’s operational specs. However, ambient temperature in Bagdad, AZ ranges from a “low” daily average high of 59 F in January to a “high” daily average high of 97 F in July. Except for brief “edge-of-loud events”, an array rated at 2,000 W STC will never generate full power in that location.

    Finally, Dennis himself can help address this issue. By reporting on how much charge current his system delivers from the present 1,290 W array, we can extrapolate what a 2,070 W array will do.

    One thing’s for sure: There’s no problem adding another 390 W STC of PV modules (i.e., three Kyocera 130’s) to the present 1,290 W STC array (1,680 W STC total).

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Larry,

    I agree that the >3kWh/day is quite a shocker. :grr I was also quite surprised to see mine running at ~1.8 kWh/day in July and August. :cry:

    I think there are several factors at play here. One might well be the extra trips to the fridge in the hot summer to garb a cold one - or six. ;) More seriously, in addition to coping with the temperature differential, I suspect that the various heaters in the "Energy Star" fridges (dehumidifier? door seals?) are pulling extra duty when it's 95 F and 75% RH.

    Curiously, my "new" fridge doesn't have an "energy saver" switch to disable the heaters...

    On average, though, I suspect that my fridge will come close to its spec of 448 kWh/yr, or ~1.227 kWh/day. With the worst of summer behind us, it's already back down to 1.35 kWh/day.

    Speaking of cold ones, I hear one calling... :cool:
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......
    backroad wrote: »
    What occurs when and if you happen to overload an MX60? Am I going to have a nuclear explosion? :D:D:D

    I'm hoping someone can answer this...& to quote myself is really wierd.........
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #20
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    From what I have read... The MX60 will regulate its output current to safe levels, regardless of the input power available (and probably has an over temperature limit too).

    The big thing you have to look out for--is that cold voltage open circuit voltage of your panels... There are various serial number ranges of the MX-60, that (IIRC) have different max voltage specifications... But roughly:

    ~125-135 VDC is maximum operating voltage

    ~135-150 VDC is maximum never exceed voltage

    >135-150 VDC (logged into MX60 memory) can damage your MX60 and will void your warranty.

    As I have said, check your serial number and manual for the exact voltage specifications for your unit.

    And remember, you will have two voltages to worry about... 1. is the Voc (never to exceed based on your coldest temperatures--damage your system) and 2. the Vmp voltage that needs to fall into an operation range for your MX60 installation which, typically is ~2+Vmax-battery charging<Vmp<~125-135 VDC Vmx60-max operating.

    Example:

    12 VDC battery needs ~15.5 VDC for hot day equalization charge. Vmp from solar panel needs to be Vmp>17.5 VDC (when your panels are at their hottest normal temperatures). And, on a cold day, the Voc of your panels need to be less than ~135-150 VDC so as not the fry your MX-60 (again, check your manual for exact voltages).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......
    What occurs when and if you happen to overload an MX60? Am I going to have a nuclear explosion?

    Dennis,

    I posted this info in an earlier message:

    "The possible but quite unlikely 50 V x 40 A input to the MX60 would result in an output of 28 V x 70 A, which is the MX60’s practical operational limit. Once the MX60’s output current exceeds the charger’s setting by ~2 A to 3 A, it electronically limits the output current. So, if you decide to try the 2,000 W array idea, it would be a good idea to set the charger current limit to 67 A."

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Crewzer, sorry to make you duplicate yourself. I guess your explaination was so thorough and technical, that It went plum over this truck drivers head.

    Thanx,
    Dennis in Bagdad
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Dennis,

    Not a problem... I, of course, have NEVER been accused of explaining how to build a watch to some fellow who only asked for the time...:roll:

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    OK, I'lll bite.......What time is it.....:-)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #25
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Here is a neat vector based clock generator kit for that old oscilloscope you have laying around...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    time for new dilithium crystals? i know, bad humor.:cry::roll:
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #27
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    I found the fridge debate very interesting. This is my first year off grid and most days generator free. I have a New 2006 Samsung American Style Fridge Freezer with ice and water dispenser rated at 525 kwh per annum. In April May 2007 my sytem was getting fully charged between 3 / 4 o clock on a sunny day and the batteries were getting a good few hours of absorbtion time. Come July August with the inlaws down occupancy doubled from 3 to 6 the ice dispenser went in to turbo mode, along with the beer door dispenser,even the dogs were given iced water as it was blazin hot just about every day . I was getting longer sun hours but it was also a lot hotter and my solar production compared to April May was about 15% less. Some days my batteries showed fully charged (XBM) but usually a good day I was getting to around 97% 98% but I suspect with no or little absorption time, and if we had a hazy day I did run the genny to bring batteries back to full charge.
    Alas the inlaws returned home end of August the ambient temp has cooled and hey presto a week later 3 / 4 o.clock back to fully charged and absorbtion charge mode back.

    The point Im trying to get over is I can put this nearly all down to the fridge freezer. as well as the small fall in PV production We watched less TV used less lighting spent more social time time outside, we heat and cook on gas .

    So yes my Fridge Freezer is my only luxury watt guzzling appliance *no air con* but I wouldnt be with out it. Increasing my fixed PV array from 1600w to 2400w very soon have the panels just gotta build the shed extenstion should easily see absorbtion return next summer.
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......
    OK, I'lll bite.......What time is it.....:-)

    One of my favorite books is Dava Sobel's Longitude. Sobel chronicles John Harrison's development of the marine chronometer, primarily for navigational purposes, and intertwines the science, technology, politics, and culture of the time. It's an excellent read. :cool:

    Regards,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • backroad
    backroad Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭
    #29
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......

    Well, my electrician son just came by with his high dollar meter to check the power use of my 19 cu. ft. energy start Sears Frige. When it's on, it's consuming a little over 2,000 watts and I'm not even using the ice maker. I've got to get a Kilowatt meter to check daily useage.

    This probably explains why my 1400 watt array is not keeping up, even during the day. I can't rearrange the budget just yet for more panels (and batteries) so I'm really glad it's about to "cool off".....:grr:cry:confused:

    Heck, my 27 inch TV only draws about 1.4 amps.

    Dennis in Bagdad
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #30
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......
    backroad wrote: »

    I've got to get a Kilowatt meter to check daily useage.


    Are you sure you didn't miss a decimal point in there??? 2kw for a 19 cu. ft. fridge can't be right unless you're talking daily usage and since you mentioned getting a Kill a Watt for that, you must be saying that 2000 watts is the running load. It should be 1/10 of that. If not, something is WAY wrong.

    Cheers,

    Bad Apple
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #31
    Re: Surprised by battery water useage......
    … it's consuming a little over 2,000 watts … I've got to get a Kilowatt meter to check daily useage. This probably explains why my 1400 watt array is not keeping up, even during the day.
    Dennis,

    I think Bad Apple has a valid point. The fridge may be consuming 2,000 Wh/day, but, unless seriously defective, it’s not drawing 2,000 W. That would pop a 15 A breaker!

    I checked my fridge this morning, and it was drawing 110 VA, or 103 W including power factor correction. Over the past 360 hours (15 days), it’s consumed 19.88 kWh of energy. That’s 1.325 kWh/day, or 8% above spec.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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