NOCO Genius Question

Steven Lake wrote: »

What is your guy's opinion of the NOCO Genius battery chargers?

I have no opinion on those particular chargers. But here's a warning about many of the new generation of "smart" chargers: The battery must be isolated from the rest of the system. You can't use them with a solar charge controller, or any loads on the battery.

The reasons for this depend on the particular smart charger. Some, for example, start out their charge sequence by testing (several different ways) the battery to see how discharged it is. That doesn't work if there are other charging sources or loads.

Some smart chargers use a current based (rather than voltage based) charging protocol during one or more stages of their charge cycle. That doesn't work if there are other charging sources or loads. These smart chargers may use the terms "absorb" and "bulk" differently than most renewable energy equipment. The popular Iota battery chargers, for example, have different voltage setpoints for bulk and absorb, something that's not possible on most RE equipment.

--vtMaps

I have various models of them around, and they are handy with the various functions and work well. BUT ....

Keep in mind these are primarily intended for the automotive market, and do float-monitoring, and not true float charging unless you have some decent parasitic loads, or force them to do so manually like I do.

That is, they do not really charge up to 100%, assuming you are going to put them back into a vehicle or solar setup to actually finish the charge. This might be unwise to do to agm's that are not part of a vehicular or solar setup and end up doing repetetive cyclic duty.

Certain model from the G7200 and higher, have either a 13.6v maintenance or power supply mode. THAT is what I use to do a true float after one of their normal charges. In the case of the power supply mode (13.6v / 5A max), you have to have the clamps UNattached and then power up the charger with a hold-down on the function button. Note that there is no reverse polarity, spark protection in this mode, so be careful.

That power supply mode / maintenance mode is also a nice way to get paralleled batteries somewhat equalized before applying a normal charge with an elevated 14.4v / 14.7v absorb.

A true fan will note that there only seems to be remote temperature monitoring with the G26000. New models say they do ambient temp-comp, but is that just a crude over over-temp protection, or constantly varied function? I don't know.

Note: most of these models now come in a "VER 2" model, that has some different capabilities, labeling, and whatnot compared to the old series. Amazon shows the new models, whereas other places, even NOCO themselves only show the old versions and old manuals. The addition of "li-ion" charge mode is the most notable, (mostly for lifepo4 powersport batteries) but there are other differences too.

Some may have not understood the 16v boost mode and when it is appropriate, and instead of applying a normal charge, and THEN doing a boost, the new models seem to take this two-step process to a one-step process of "repair". Until I see the NEW manual, I can't confirm it.

Also note that the charge current is in many "steps", where the current gets progressively walked down during charge. This is unlike the standard CC/CV which just does CC all the way to the absorb setpoint and then of course current gets limited by the battery itself. Thus the NOCO takes longer to charge, (although yes, faster than an old CC taper-current charger) albeit some would claim that this stepped CC is better from a Peukert standpoint. Still, one wonders if during their CC step-downs during bulk, if that may NOT be advantageous to some high-end agm's? Something to think about anyway.

Perhaps the stepped-CC bulk is really for consumer safety with junk batteries where the primary purpose is to put them back into a vehicle, and not do factory-like 24/7 cyclic duty which calls for a more standard IUU or IUIa routine. I certainly wouldn't wouldn't want to put a NOCO to a commercial cyclic duty application. But that isn't the sales demographic for these chargers.

Many consumers still undersize those chargers for the task, yet give it rave reviews, not realizing that a dinky G750 or 1100 on a 100ah battery is NOT the best thing to cycle it with! Half don't even realize that their "tenders" never actually finish a charge and proceed to tend, but merely do a safety-timeout and blink the green light!

I think they are a nice charger, with many functions for various tasks. But if your needs include a float charge, and not just float-monitoring, use the 13.6v maintenance or power supply feature if you want to truly fully charge them to 100% right away. For that you'll need a 7200 or larger.

Like most automotive type chargers, some have nice details, but for us battery guys that really want to know what's going on, they leave out vital info leaving it up to us to find out on our own.

For example, I picked up a small VER 2 G1100 just to watch their li-ion setting. Basically a CC/CV to 14.2v at half the rated output of only 500ma.

For my agm's, both large and small, the absorb to 14.8v is followed by allowing it to fall in voltage to about 13.8v, and then ANOTHER absorb, but this time up to 15v once before falling into the float-monitoring mode. This kind of operation seems to now be part of the VER 2 "optimization" routine, but unless you track this with your own gear most consumers wouldn't know.

This is not detailed in the user-guide, and the new FULL manuals for "VER 2" are presently unavailable at the NOCO site. I doubt it will be fully documented, as this might give away details about the new programming in their VOSFX firmware, which automotive charger manufacturers tend to leave out - UNLESS you are Optimate, which spells out their algorithm in excruciating detail! Alas, they only have 5A chargers at the top end for now.

They are good chargers for most consumers. I'd like to know what "AGM +" means as compared to their "cold/agm" setting. I won't know until I get a bigger one with this feature.

I think part of the lack of FULL details is just due to trying to stay competetive, AND so that an inexperienced consumer won't inadvertently reject the charger based on specs alone - like the new version doing a one-time 15v zinger on agms as the last step before falling to float-monitoring. I'm actually OK with that, but an average consumer with no experience might go bananas on the blogosphere if all they do is bench-race specifications without truly knowing what things mean and in which part of the charge cycle things occur.

The chargers are actually built well for consumer goods. That review(er) is a total joke.

The racist review from a guy who went into the store to buy a lithium jumpstarter was disappointed to find out he brought home a 3.5A charger instead, and was expecting a battery to be inside - then goes into more of a racist tirade when he realized his mistake. Of course ALL the video and computer gear he is using for his tirade is made in China. He doesn't seem to mention that.

Proudly displayed beside the battery on the right, his multimeter is a Fluke 11X model. (114/115/116/117). An outstanding product with fantastic Fluke build quality. I guess nobody told him that this line of inexpensive (yet still amazing quality) Flukes are made in CHINA! I should know owning 3 of them along with my 87V.

He goes on to expound about all his apparent electrical knowledge, yet it is immediately obvious that he's on an agenda purposely misrepresenting a product. He can barely figure out how the thing works, and doesn't realize that it is trying it's best to revive an obvious POS battery. Without reading the manual at all, he just punches buttons and goes motor-mouthing like he's on his 5th cup of coffee or whatever it is making him run at 300mph.

Not all Chinese products are bad. There is both good and bad - it all depends. And NOCO is actually pretty good, solid build, and very reasonable engineering.

In my case, I'm not bad-mouthing them like this guy is - just a few pointers for the true battery geeks among us. But this guy is totally different with an obvious RACIST chip on his shoulder. And most likely a high quality Chinese cellphone in his pocket. Just ignore hypocritical reviews like this!

Note too that he obviously had the ability to fake a product defect by sucking up a solder trace all by himself. Pounding on the charger like a chimp, he tried to make it do a logic-fault, but couldn't. Yet he has the time to pull out manufacturer part spec sheets, identify individual components, draw junior high-school waveforms on his bench, but for some reason won't spend the minute it takes to leaf through the manual. In the end, he puts it back together and actually uses it to revive his pos battery. That speaks volumes.

Don't be fooled by hucksters.

He also doesn't know that like his inexpensive Fluke multimeter, the NOCO engineering, parts specs, board layout and such come from right here south of his own border and not from overseas - in the USA. He should take his complaint about crap to NOCO corporate and see where that gets him, or at least edit his review to blame the US engineers instead of being a clown about China.

Forgot to mention - my G15000 should be here in a few days. Looking forward to putting it to the test myself, even though I honestly don't need it, since I already own 2 each of the G750, G1100, G7200's and a GB30 lithium jumpstarter - yet I prefer the way Optimate does it, but am limited at the top end of charge current with them. Guess that stupid review had no effect on NOCO sales with me.

No, he's not typical. If I allowed his vitriol to affect my being, that racism could have snuck in and merely turned the tables on Canadians in my heart. Sneaky stuff. Well enough of that.

He was caught unaware of the stepped CC mode of the charger when he put the ammeter to it. Maybe we can turn this into a positive as undersizing a charger is pretty common. The classic mistake is not knowing when your charger is so low in amperage it is really a maintainer and not a charger and all that this entails.

IF one is going to use a NOCO, due to their safety by a fault design with the stepped CC, one REALLY wants to make sure that the charger rating is no lower than 1/10th (C * .1) of the battery's ah capacity for flooded, and no lower than C * .2 for agm if they want to CHARGE on a regular basis. Pure-lead agm's go a bit higher.

That is, while he was using what appears to be a common 75ah battery, he should have used the 7200. And not being surprised when at 50% DOD, that rate is cut in half assuming a healthy battery due to their emphasis on safety, and not necessarily the ideal charge curve. They just don't know what gets connected to the end of the clamps.

It is a reminder that these are still automotive chargers, designed for a demographic that knows nothing about batteries or charging, and frequently needs to get an abused battery back into a vehicle without blowing the tops off. I don't want that happening to my Grandpa when he uses it to charge the battery in his neglected '87 Buick LeSabre.

I will be interested to see if the NEW model 15000 follows the same stepped pattern for Lifepo4 on my 40ah GBS battery. If it does, I'll live with it, since that too will help protect the kids who duct-tape together some trash cells for their e-bike. We'll see.

Got the 15000 back from my dealer. I'm swimming in these things now.

I think I was moving too fast. Apparently leaving the clamps on the battery, but disconnected from the AC for at least a minute before plugging in did the trick. That, and not being so timid when plugging it in.

Maybe some sort of filter cap wasn't getting charged enough before plugging in the AC, or drawing a big spark from being so timid made it lose it's brain temporarily.

I'll keep an eye on it, but I can't seem to make it fail now following these procedures. Wallet is a lot lighter again, so I'll cool my jets for awhile.

I use a G3500 to keep my generator starter battery topped off.  I should throw the tractor battery onto it too, before it dies.