NOCO Genius Question

Steven Lake

What is your guy's opinion of the NOCO Genius battery chargers? I've begun using the 12V Eyelet Battery Indicator they offer as a simple, at a glance, easy to use battery indicator on all my setups (some modification is necessary for use with spade and post type batteries, but that's a small issue) and so far they've been a godsend for keeping an eye on troublesome systems, or any of the systems really. And since these have proven so reliable and wonderful to have, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the actual charger units. Right now I use an off the shelf diehard 2/4a charger, but I'm open go trying a NOCO if they're worth the time and money to invest in. So far the reviews I've seen on them seem to be quite glowing and very positive. But, as always, I figure it's safer to ask you guys than to trust blind reviews. After all, you're the solar experts and all I am is a nerdy farmer. :P

BB.

I guess this is the product family?

http://www.geniuschargers.com/

I have been using a Battery Minder for a few years now--And was much better than the "dumb" float chargers that you get at the auto parts store--The 1 amp cube float chargers kept boiling the battery dry (although, the Battery Minders are a lot more expensive):

http://www.batteryminders.com/

The Genius chargers also have a larger output version that that of the Battery Minder family.

-Bill

Steven Lake

Yeah, that's the brand I was thinking of. As for the float chargers boil a battery dry, I'm pretty spot on with those chargers such that once they click over as done (mine has an auto shutoff once the battery is at full charge) and make sure I take them off there. But the Genius is one that intrigues me as a possible replacement. Hence my questions about it. They even have one model, I believe the 7.5a that does both 12v and 24v, which would be a huge boost for me as it'd give me that extra flexibility should I need it.

vtmaps

Steven Lake wrote: »

What is your guy's opinion of the NOCO Genius battery chargers?

I have no opinion on those particular chargers. But here's a warning about many of the new generation of "smart" chargers: The battery must be isolated from the rest of the system. You can't use them with a solar charge controller, or any loads on the battery.

The reasons for this depend on the particular smart charger. Some, for example, start out their charge sequence by testing (several different ways) the battery to see how discharged it is. That doesn't work if there are other charging sources or loads.

Some smart chargers use a current based (rather than voltage based) charging protocol during one or more stages of their charge cycle. That doesn't work if there are other charging sources or loads. These smart chargers may use the terms "absorb" and "bulk" differently than most renewable energy equipment. The popular Iota battery chargers, for example, have different voltage setpoints for bulk and absorb, something that's not possible on most RE equipment.

--vtMaps

Steven Lake

Yeah, i figured that. If anything I'd be using this more for my portable power pigs, spare batteries in storage and the like. Any batteries connected to solar chargers would get disconnected anyways out of habit before being connected to any charger like this as the one I have right now doesn't like anything else to be connected to the battery except it. So I'm already used to that practice.

PNjunction

I have various models of them around, and they are handy with the various functions and work well. BUT ....

Keep in mind these are primarily intended for the automotive market, and do float-monitoring, and not true float charging unless you have some decent parasitic loads, or force them to do so manually like I do.

That is, they do not really charge up to 100%, assuming you are going to put them back into a vehicle or solar setup to actually finish the charge. This might be unwise to do to agm's that are not part of a vehicular or solar setup and end up doing repetetive cyclic duty.

Certain model from the G7200 and higher, have either a 13.6v maintenance or power supply mode. THAT is what I use to do a true float after one of their normal charges. In the case of the power supply mode (13.6v / 5A max), you have to have the clamps UNattached and then power up the charger with a hold-down on the function button. Note that there is no reverse polarity, spark protection in this mode, so be careful.

That power supply mode / maintenance mode is also a nice way to get paralleled batteries somewhat equalized before applying a normal charge with an elevated 14.4v / 14.7v absorb.

A true fan will note that there only seems to be remote temperature monitoring with the G26000. New models say they do ambient temp-comp, but is that just a crude over over-temp protection, or constantly varied function? I don't know.

Note: most of these models now come in a "VER 2" model, that has some different capabilities, labeling, and whatnot compared to the old series. Amazon shows the new models, whereas other places, even NOCO themselves only show the old versions and old manuals. The addition of "li-ion" charge mode is the most notable, (mostly for lifepo4 powersport batteries) but there are other differences too.

Some may have not understood the 16v boost mode and when it is appropriate, and instead of applying a normal charge, and THEN doing a boost, the new models seem to take this two-step process to a one-step process of "repair". Until I see the NEW manual, I can't confirm it.

Also note that the charge current is in many "steps", where the current gets progressively walked down during charge. This is unlike the standard CC/CV which just does CC all the way to the absorb setpoint and then of course current gets limited by the battery itself. Thus the NOCO takes longer to charge, (although yes, faster than an old CC taper-current charger) albeit some would claim that this stepped CC is better from a Peukert standpoint. Still, one wonders if during their CC step-downs during bulk, if that may NOT be advantageous to some high-end agm's? Something to think about anyway.

Perhaps the stepped-CC bulk is really for consumer safety with junk batteries where the primary purpose is to put them back into a vehicle, and not do factory-like 24/7 cyclic duty which calls for a more standard IUU or IUIa routine. I certainly wouldn't wouldn't want to put a NOCO to a commercial cyclic duty application. But that isn't the sales demographic for these chargers.

Many consumers still undersize those chargers for the task, yet give it rave reviews, not realizing that a dinky G750 or 1100 on a 100ah battery is NOT the best thing to cycle it with! Half don't even realize that their "tenders" never actually finish a charge and proceed to tend, but merely do a safety-timeout and blink the green light!

I think they are a nice charger, with many functions for various tasks. But if your needs include a float charge, and not just float-monitoring, use the 13.6v maintenance or power supply feature if you want to truly fully charge them to 100% right away. For that you'll need a 7200 or larger.

Like most automotive type chargers, some have nice details, but for us battery guys that really want to know what's going on, they leave out vital info leaving it up to us to find out on our own.

For example, I picked up a small VER 2 G1100 just to watch their li-ion setting. Basically a CC/CV to 14.2v at half the rated output of only 500ma.

For my agm's, both large and small, the absorb to 14.8v is followed by allowing it to fall in voltage to about 13.8v, and then ANOTHER absorb, but this time up to 15v once before falling into the float-monitoring mode. This kind of operation seems to now be part of the VER 2 "optimization" routine, but unless you track this with your own gear most consumers wouldn't know.

This is not detailed in the user-guide, and the new FULL manuals for "VER 2" are presently unavailable at the NOCO site. I doubt it will be fully documented, as this might give away details about the new programming in their VOSFX firmware, which automotive charger manufacturers tend to leave out - UNLESS you are Optimate, which spells out their algorithm in excruciating detail! Alas, they only have 5A chargers at the top end for now.

They are good chargers for most consumers. I'd like to know what "AGM +" means as compared to their "cold/agm" setting. I won't know until I get a bigger one with this feature.

I think part of the lack of FULL details is just due to trying to stay competetive, AND so that an inexperienced consumer won't inadvertently reject the charger based on specs alone - like the new version doing a one-time 15v zinger on agms as the last step before falling to float-monitoring. I'm actually OK with that, but an average consumer with no experience might go bananas on the blogosphere if all they do is bench-race specifications without truly knowing what things mean and in which part of the charge cycle things occur.

Steven Lake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bczwt1Ug2zU

Yeah, I'm already starting to think that I'm not liking this charger. Plus I found the above video where the guy takes apart one of the lower end models and my gawds, can you get any cheaper on the inside build!? Sheesh. Yeah, totally not impressed now after seeing some of this other info. Cripes, my $40 Kmart special does a better job at recharging my AGM's and doesn't have this wild spiking wandering voltage thing this Noco has. Kinda glad I asked now because it just killed my interest in this unit. On a side note though, their clip on ring post LED battery monitor is the shizzle. Been using those for a while now and loving them. Probably nano amp hours of draw off the unit and all you do is walk up, look for the blink, and know immediately how your battery is doing. I wish it measured more than just four states, but hey, for what I use it for, I'm happy enough with that.

PNjunction

The chargers are actually built well for consumer goods. That review(er) is a total joke.

The racist review from a guy who went into the store to buy a lithium jumpstarter was disappointed to find out he brought home a 3.5A charger instead, and was expecting a battery to be inside - then goes into more of a racist tirade when he realized his mistake. Of course ALL the video and computer gear he is using for his tirade is made in China. He doesn't seem to mention that.

Proudly displayed beside the battery on the right, his multimeter is a Fluke 11X model. (114/115/116/117). An outstanding product with fantastic Fluke build quality. I guess nobody told him that this line of inexpensive (yet still amazing quality) Flukes are made in CHINA! I should know owning 3 of them along with my 87V.

He goes on to expound about all his apparent electrical knowledge, yet it is immediately obvious that he's on an agenda purposely misrepresenting a product. He can barely figure out how the thing works, and doesn't realize that it is trying it's best to revive an obvious POS battery. Without reading the manual at all, he just punches buttons and goes motor-mouthing like he's on his 5th cup of coffee or whatever it is making him run at 300mph.

Not all Chinese products are bad. There is both good and bad - it all depends. And NOCO is actually pretty good, solid build, and very reasonable engineering.

In my case, I'm not bad-mouthing them like this guy is - just a few pointers for the true battery geeks among us. But this guy is totally different with an obvious RACIST chip on his shoulder. And most likely a high quality Chinese cellphone in his pocket. Just ignore hypocritical reviews like this!

Note too that he obviously had the ability to fake a product defect by sucking up a solder trace all by himself. Pounding on the charger like a chimp, he tried to make it do a logic-fault, but couldn't. Yet he has the time to pull out manufacturer part spec sheets, identify individual components, draw junior high-school waveforms on his bench, but for some reason won't spend the minute it takes to leaf through the manual. In the end, he puts it back together and actually uses it to revive his pos battery. That speaks volumes.

Don't be fooled by hucksters.

He also doesn't know that like his inexpensive Fluke multimeter, the NOCO engineering, parts specs, board layout and such come from right here south of his own border and not from overseas - in the USA. He should take his complaint about crap to NOCO corporate and see where that gets him, or at least edit his review to blame the US engineers instead of being a clown about China.

Forgot to mention - my G15000 should be here in a few days. Looking forward to putting it to the test myself, even though I honestly don't need it, since I already own 2 each of the G750, G1100, G7200's and a GB30 lithium jumpstarter - yet I prefer the way Optimate does it, but am limited at the top end of charge current with them. Guess that stupid review had no effect on NOCO sales with me.

solar_dave

The guy is a dope, the box says nothing about boost charger it says strictly battery charger. I hope he is not a typical Canadian.

PNjunction

No, he's not typical. If I allowed his vitriol to affect my being, that racism could have snuck in and merely turned the tables on Canadians in my heart. Sneaky stuff. Well enough of that.

He was caught unaware of the stepped CC mode of the charger when he put the ammeter to it. Maybe we can turn this into a positive as undersizing a charger is pretty common. The classic mistake is not knowing when your charger is so low in amperage it is really a maintainer and not a charger and all that this entails.

IF one is going to use a NOCO, due to their safety by a fault design with the stepped CC, one REALLY wants to make sure that the charger rating is no lower than 1/10th (C * .1) of the battery's ah capacity for flooded, and no lower than C * .2 for agm if they want to CHARGE on a regular basis. Pure-lead agm's go a bit higher.

That is, while he was using what appears to be a common 75ah battery, he should have used the 7200. And not being surprised when at 50% DOD, that rate is cut in half assuming a healthy battery due to their emphasis on safety, and not necessarily the ideal charge curve. They just don't know what gets connected to the end of the clamps.

It is a reminder that these are still automotive chargers, designed for a demographic that knows nothing about batteries or charging, and frequently needs to get an abused battery back into a vehicle without blowing the tops off. I don't want that happening to my Grandpa when he uses it to charge the battery in his neglected '87 Buick LeSabre.

I will be interested to see if the NEW model 15000 follows the same stepped pattern for Lifepo4 on my 40ah GBS battery. If it does, I'll live with it, since that too will help protect the kids who duct-tape together some trash cells for their e-bike. We'll see.

PNjunction

Got the new G15000 a Ver 2 model.

New stuff I needed more detail on:

AGM+ mode is a 15.5v mode for 12v agm's that come with the "micro-hybrid" or start-stop engine vehicles. That is, they are not a full hybrid, but merely have engine start-stop features at long streetlights for example. Won't be using that.

REPAIR Mode - this a a nomenclature change from the older "boost", which is basically a 16.5v EQ limited to 4 hours max. Like before, one should always finish a regular charge first before following up with this mode for highly sulfated batteries.

Unfortunately, this unit was brain-dead and had to be refunded. The logic prevented me from doing anything more than the power supply mode, even though I could "trick" it into a mode I wanted temporarily. No matter what battery was connected, a charge was started and it immediately returned to standby, as if the cabling was bad - but that was checked too and the charger knew when there was a reverse-polarity condition on the cables. Unit only had half a brain. Perhaps a too agressive thermal protection sensor - dunno'.

Still needing a charger, upgraded the old 7200 to a ver 2 model from the refund, which worked as expected. It happens with consumer goods, so I'm not going to freak out about it.

PNjunction

Got the 15000 back from my dealer. I'm swimming in these things now.

I think I was moving too fast. Apparently leaving the clamps on the battery, but disconnected from the AC for at least a minute before plugging in did the trick. That, and not being so timid when plugging it in.

Maybe some sort of filter cap wasn't getting charged enough before plugging in the AC, or drawing a big spark from being so timid made it lose it's brain temporarily.

I'll keep an eye on it, but I can't seem to make it fail now following these procedures. Wallet is a lot lighter again, so I'll cool my jets for awhile.

PNjunction

FAILED AGAIN. But fixed for good now.

Turned out to be the snap-together proprietary clamp connector. Even though fully engaged and locked, it was still intermittent, and twisting it as hard as I can brought the logic back to normal. No wonder the power-supply mode, which does not rely on a clamp to the batteries worked. Well, only to about 200ma! (never put a real load on it)

So instead of a total hard break, the connection was just too weak when it DID work, and of course the unit goes into standby and wouldn't let me come out of it. Interesting to know it will protect itself from a bad cable, I guess if it only seems to have one strand connected internally.

Cut out the proprietary connector, and just resoldered the clamp cable with plenty of heatshrink. I won't be using the permanent battery wire attachment anyway.

All this after I bought the specialized triangular screwdriver to pull it apart and inspect the insides first. REALLY good quality inside, like looking at a good intermediate quality voltmeter. Not Fluke quality mind you, but nice and clean with shiny good solder joints for the things that had to be hand-wired. That intermittent cable that wasn't a total break fooled me.

Marduk

How do you adjust float and charge voltage on a .750 A junior? Are there pots inside ? Mine always over charges my 500 ah battery bank. Just wondering if anyone tried.

Steven Lake

I looked into them but ended up going with another brand.  What I ended up reading about them made them sound mediocre compared to some other, better solutions.

mike95490

I use a G3500 to keep my generator starter battery topped off.  I should throw the tractor battery onto it too, before it dies.

solar_dave

Well I had a gen 1 G1100 fail and destroyed my Motorcycle battery by not charging. I have another one that has done duty on a MC AGM now for 3+ years successfully.  I bought a Gen 2 G1100 to replace the failed one.

I wonder if placing it on a timer for like 4 hours so it could cycle through all the steps daily might not be better.