Aquion Energy "Cost Effective"?

JoshK · April 2015

So the Aquion Energy S20 batteries advertise they are cost-effective...
But the specs are 51AH, 48V. That is 2448 watts for $1155. (calculated against a 1 hour discharge)
But a car battery can be 120AH, 12v. Two car batteries is 2880 watts for about $100 each.

So....
$471.81 per KW from Aquion, vs
$69.44 per KW from Wal-Mart.

Am I missing something?

BB. · April 2015

A "car battery" will probably last 10-100 deep cycles. maybe 1 cycle if you take it dead.

The Aquion will (should) last >3,000 cycles....

-Bill

JoshK · April 2015

Well if you want deep-cycle you can get that for about the same price and it says 1200 cycles. But with the space you save, you could install 4 wal-mart batteries and only do a 50% discharge. That would get you up to 3000 cycles for $138.88 per KW and you would have DOUBLE the peak potential for starting hard loads.

BB. · April 2015

I don't disagree.... I think the AE batteries are really designed for load shifting (factories, utilities, etc.). I am not convinced they are cost effective (at this time) for off grid home power systems. They do not have the surge potential that lead acid and lithium batteries can do.

But if you do not have a lot of surge (no large water pumps, power tools, etc.)--Who knows, it may make sense for some folks.

I suggest, if you are interested, to do paper designs for several different battery types (and include life cycle costs).

With the AE batteries, it may be difficult to find an off grid inverter that supports their "native" battery voltage range. Its things like that where the rubber hits the road. If you cannot find off the shelf/cost effective support equipment--You may be too far ahead of the curve at this time.

Of course, it is chicken vs egg time--No batteries, you won't find inverters to support them. No inverters, then you will have a difficult time selling batteries.

But, it is not uncommon for companies to "partner" with others to be able to supply an integrated solution--I am sure these are very smart folks and have addressed many of the questions that somebody like me (not in the business) have not seen answers for.

http://www.aquionenergy.com/energy-storage-companies

-Bill

JoshK · April 2015

Thanks again for the reply Bill. Mostly I just think about larger systems. I have a deep cycle battery for backup power, and during the last power outage (about 10 hour outage, 4 hours on backup?) it ran the refrigerator, my computer, and a cell phone hotspot excellent, with little discharge. So it fills my needs just fine. When the power comes back on the battery is recharged by a battery maintainer.

BB. · April 2015

Quite a few folks here use off grid/battery based inverters for backup power (with and without solar)--Many have unreliable power--And it gives them enough power to figure out what to do for longer outages (I.e., start genset, etc.).

It is nice to have power at the house while everyone else is out.

-Bill

JoshK · April 2015

BB. wrote: »

It is nice to have power at the house while everyone else is out.

Absolutely

I have been through outages without backup power and the stress of not knowing if it will come back before your food spoils or the basement floods is nerve-racking

Photowhit · April 2015

Not sure what "WalMart' Battery you speaking of, I have never seen a true deep cycle battery in WalMart, be careful you aren't talking about marine batteries, you would be much better off with 'golf cart' batteries!

JoshK · April 2015

Photowhit,
I was just there and they had a big "Marine Deep Cycle" for $86. On the top it clearly says 12v and 122AH. It also says 845MCA but I don't care about that. What is your concern? Here's the link to the webpage.

Mountain Don · April 2015

It is not a deep cycle battery as a golf cart battery is a real deep cycle design.

I have had those type (12 volt Marine / RV) in RV's. I have also used 6 volt golf cart batteries in the same RV. The GC-2's lasted almost 3X as long.

JoshK · April 2015

There was also a "Marine Starting" type battery on the shelf next to it. Do you know which you had, Mountain Don?

Also, can you post a link to your GC batteries please?

Photowhit · April 2015

Generally speaking, the 'Marine' battery that would be a trolling motor battery would be dual use for starting and running a trolling motor. The starting battery would just for starting. It has to do with battery design internally. I'm no expert, but I'll give an explanation a shot! Starting batteries have more but thinner plates, more surface area allows for higher delivery of current in a brief amount of time(CCA - Cold Cranking Amps at 0 degrees F or MCA/CA Marine Cranking Amps / Cranking Amps @ 32 degrees F) Deep Cycle batteries have thicker plates hence can not deliver as many amps in a momentary situation, but are better at delivering amps over a long period of time, capacity.

If you have a Costco or a Sams club they are good sources for inexpensive golf cart batteries. If you're not a member there are ways around even that!

You might also try a local golf course and explain that you are looking for a source for reasonable golf cart batteries.

JoshK · April 2015

Yea it's definitely rated as dual purpose, but the 122AH is all that matters, correct? It must be thick plated. At $59 per KW it's so tempting. And they are compact. The golf cart ones need to be wired together with expensive and messy cables. Can you buy racks to organize that?

Photowhit · April 2015

NO! It will be a dual use battery, Not great at either. Read Mountain Don's post. Are you near or do you get to Sioux Falls? Both Costco and Sam's club there.

JoshK · April 2015

Gees, calm down. You missed the part where this is backup power, if it cycles 20 times before it's shot it's more than good. Any suggestions on a specific Golf Cart battery is welcome and I will check it out. So far just negativity toward the batteries I have my only experience with. How about make/model help instead of lashings?

Photowhit · April 2015

It's a forum and you asked the question, if you don't want answers don't ask questions....

Sam's club and Costco will only have one selection of 6 volt golf cart battery, usually @$80 with a generous core policy, they have even taken a garden tractor battery as a core. I think Sam's club are Energizer or duralast and Costco usually interstate now? not sure.

Mountain Don · April 2015

The 12 volt ones I had years ago were marked as "Marine / RV deep cycle". But the words "deep cycle" printed on a battery label do not mean all that much, IMO. It is the performance over time that matters. The Marine/ RV ones we had did not get cycled a lot as the RV was not used daily. The same operational conditions existed when I changed to golf cart batteries. The performance and lifespan of the GC-2's were markedly longer than the marine / RV.

The present GC-2's are labeled "Energizer" and I got them at Sam's Club. Pretty much a generic battery but one built to golf cart battery specs. I have another set of GC-2's Ibought in May 2009. Also from Sam's Club, but with a different label. They are still in use with our off grid cabin and perform quite well still. They do get cycled a lot more there than the RV ever did. I expect I should be able to get a few more years out of them. The view through the open cap looks spectacularly new.

I have cautioned many folks who were starting small PV systems to NOT use the marine / RV batteries. I know that many have chnaged to GC-2's after the marine / RV failed early. Almost a universal experience with users of marine / RV batteries.

If the battery is labeled as a marine starting battery the experience will be on a par with using an automotive battery. IOW, poor.

JoshK, in your OP you stated the battery is recharged from the mains with a battery maintainer. If that means a low current output device (meant to float a battery mainly) that may also be harming the battery by taking a long time to recharge the battery after a deep discharge. Just food for thought.

JoshK · April 2015

Thanks for the specifics guys. And I see now that the GC-2 is a group size. I thought it was just forum shorthand for 2v Golf Cart.
So I located an Engergizer GC-2 online at Sam's club for 7 cents per watt. The WalMart one was 6 cents per watt. This is close enough to the same for me I think I would rather have the Energizer GC-2.

Thanks for the info on recharging Mountain Don, I will use the battery charger after a power outage to replenish it. What I have is an Armor Plate 31 HD Deep Cycle battery (I got for free) and a Whistler 1600 inverter. Like most homes, mine has a basement, and often heavy rain and power outages come at the same time in South Dakota. Everyone uses drain tile around their basement to bring water to the sump pump. This prevents water from pushing through the walls or floors. But, worst case, if the pump is without power a basement can fill with 5 FEET of water in one downpour. Even the time it takes to start a finicky Generator can cost a lot in basement damages. So this is a fast and always-ready source of power for that. It also has the added bonus of keeping the refrigerator running and phones charged if flooding is not a risk. These disasters are rare, but only the prepared live their lives without damages or fear of damages.

JoshK · April 2015

So for anyone following along and interested in the economics and life of these batteries....

$471.81 per KWH for Aquion S20 from Aquion Energy, vs
$ 67.70 per KWH for Energizer GC-2 from Sam's Club, vs
$ 59.30 per KWH for EverStart/Johnson Controls's 29DC from WalMart

While Aquion has the best life for full discharges, it costs 7x more than the GC-2 Golf Cart Batteries. So the same money could get you a GC-2 battery bank 7x larger than the same priced Aquion. Meaning you would only use 14% of your capacity, leading to a massively better life span that would rival or possibly exceed Aquion. (Comments welcome on quantifying this.)

Of course Aquion's battery has the benefit of being better for the environment when it's life is over.

BB. · April 2015

I believe kWH?

JoshK wrote: »

$471.81 per KWH for Aquion S20 from Aquion Energy, vs
$ 67.70 per KWH for Energizer GC-2 from Sam's Club, vs
$ 59.30 per KWH for EverStart/Johnson Controls's 29DC from WalMart

-Bill

JoshK · April 2015

My bad Bill. I edited it. Thanks.

BB. · April 2015

No problem... Just trying to keep everything clear with Watts/Watt*Hours/etc.

-Bill

Photowhit · April 2015

Not sure if I should post this here or create a thread, might seam like an ad if I created a thread, so I just received a Sam's Club Groupon deal, $45 their standard cost for a year, with a $20 gift certificate and a free roasted chicken and 8 cupcakes, so nearly free. I think Groupon's are done regionally but are often every where. Here's a link;

http://www.groupon.com/deals/sam-s-club-145-columbia-mo?p=1&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&sid=ca7c95a2-9413-4343-8c5d-6e2f1ad98177&division=columbia-mo&user=c0511b70b81e7a77a5f763b7da7e211e95174ecc941cc7758c717fa887aa8ca5&date=20150423&uu=caf2989c-251d-11e2-a852-00259069d5fe&s=body&c=link&d=deal-page&utm_campaign=ca7c95a2-9413-4343-8c5d-6e2f1ad98177

Posted here since the membership fee often becomes a hurdle.

JoshK · April 2015

Thanks, I might be giving that a go soon. I'm still debating space vs. size vs. price for a battery backup with a few panels.

JoshK · April 2015

I'm waiting for Tesla's announcement about home batteries within the week before commiting to the GC-2s... and in the meantime I was reading about AGM batteries. Are their any recommendations out there on a particular AGM to look at?

BB. · April 2015

arConcorde makes a very nice series.

Concorde Sun Xtender AGM Batteries

And East Penn Manufacturing Has a good reputation. Deka (an East Penn brand) has a good line of flooded cell and AGMs (I believe), from what I have read here.

Will let others chime in.

By the way, AGMs may not last as long as good quality flooded cell batteries, and AGMs tend to cost more. If you need AGMs (clean, efficient, high current capacity), they are very good at that.

-Bill

mike95490 · April 2015

JoshK wrote: »

I'm waiting for Tesla's announcement about home batteries within the week before commiting to the GC-2s... and in the meantime I was reading about AGM batteries. Are their any recommendations out there on a particular AGM to look at?

Even if tesla announces, it will be months before they are shipping. And a cheap "training set" of batteries is always a good idea.

JoshK · April 2015

Thanks Bill, I see they are about 3.75x more expensive. I would love not to need to change their diapers over the years, but it's probably not worth it.
Yea good points Mike, but if GC-2's will last 20 years I don't want to buy them the week before something better comes out. And I trust myself not to screw anything up.

BB. · April 2015

Typical Golf Cart batteries--figure 3-5 years... You may do better, but have savings in case something goes south.

-Bill

JoshK · April 2015

BB. wrote: »

Typical Golf Cart batteries--figure 3-5 years

Really? I thought I read here recently that they lasted 10 - 20 years. What type of battery does last that long?

Photowhit · April 2015

JoshK wrote: »

Really? I thought I read here recently that they lasted 10 - 20 years. What type of battery does last that long?

A forklift battery should last in that range. Claims of LiFePo4's are they may last that long... Large 2 volt cells should last around 10 years. Some telecommunication batteries are designed to last that long, but they remain in float with very minimal cycling.

I think 'Coot was 8-9 years on his set of golf cart batteries, but they live in the cold 6 months out of the year, that might account for their longevity.

Aquion Energy &quot;Cost Effective&quot;?

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Aquion Energy "Cost Effective"?