My battery soc

Blackcherry04 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

You need a expansion tank if your going into those temperature ranges on the system. The pressure build up is to great as the heated water expands the pressure builds, maybe as much as 30 psi above the normal system pressure @ 170 F.

You can also buy a little popoff valve ( $25 ) you can adjust to a set pressure and plumb it to a drain. The pressure will cause your faucets to leak and sometimes a Ice Maker valve as it will run around to the cold side if you have a check valve in the system at the pump or entrance. If you have weak pipes or connections, like on a toilet it can cause you more problems than you realize.
.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

blackcherry

I have a hot water boiler for my house heating and it has an expansion tank. The hot water heater that the solar heats goes into a propane hot water heater about 4 feet away. I keep the propane down around 120 degrees or so. So if I tried to put an expantion tank in it would go between the two hot water heaters on the hot out of the solar one? Also what temp would I probly be safe at? I thought the pop off might be getting weak as I bought the tank used.

I checked a couple of cells. The battery ended up with 2.45 hours of absorb today but was probly running pretty close to that for longer cause it didn't have any real loads on it for the last 5 days or so. cell 8 was 1.292 , cell 15 was 1.280 and cell 8 (the low one) was a high 1.278. The temp was 64 degrees f if I trust it as I had to squeeze the monitor to see it.

Thanks
gww

Thanks
gww

Blackcherry04 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

gww1 wrote: »

blackcherry

I have a hot water boiler for my house heating and it has an expansion tank. The hot water heater that the solar heats goes into a propane hot water heater about 4 feet away. I keep the propane down around 120 degrees or so. So if I tried to put an expantion tank in it would go between the two hot water heaters on the hot out of the solar one? Also what temp would I probly be safe at? I thought the pop off might be getting weak as I bought the tank used.
gww

Thats where I have my expansion tank, at the heater. I have a two tank setup like that. That valve may in fact be bad. About all you could do is change it and see. I don't know what to tell you on the temperature settings, I never tested it. I raised mine and it blew the pex tubing out of the fittings and I added the tank and popoff, no problem since. I have a hydronic coil in the air handler I use with the heatpump.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Blackcherry
I think I am going to see what 160 degrees does. I have been running for over a year and my setting used to be 170 degrees top element and The lowest setting on the bottom element. I just raised the bottom element this week hoping to keep the hot water tank needing power cause that is my only control on keeping my turbines loaded when the battery is full. Normally it is not a problim cause the wife takes a shower and washes cloths and dishes. She is in korea for a couple of months and I am not using near as much of anything (except maby beer) as we use when she is here. I must not be as clean as her.

thanks
gww

BB. · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Also, that high of water temperature can cause instant burns. Are you using an anti-scalding/tempering valve? Probably required by code anyway.

https://www.plumbingsupply.com/scald.html

    LENGTH OF TIME IT TAKES FOR HOT WATER TO CAUSE 3rd DEGREE BURNS

 [TABLE="class: border nwrap center w500"]
    [TR="class: bgcolor"]
  [TH]Temperature[/TH]
  [TH="colspan: 2"]Time to Cause Burns[/TH]
  [/TR]
[TR="class: bggray"]
  [TH]Adult[/TH]
  [TH]Child Under 5[/TH]
  [/TR]
      [TR]
  [TD]100°F[/TD]
  [TD]Cool bath[/TD]
  [TD]Average bath[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]102°F[/TD]
  [TD]Average bath[/TD]
  [TD]Warm bath[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]105°F[/TD]
  [TD]Average hot tub[/TD]
  [TD]NOT recommended[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]120°F[/TD]
  [TD]9.5 minutes[/TD]
  [TD]4.5 minutes[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]125°F[/TD]
  [TD]2 minutes[/TD]
  [TD]1 minute[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]130°F[/TD]
  [TD]30 seconds[/TD]
  [TD]10 seconds[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]135°F[/TD]
  [TD]15 seconds[/TD]
  [TD]4 seconds[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]140°F[/TD]
  [TD]5 seconds[/TD]
  [TD]1 second[/TD]
  [/TR]
[TR]
  [TD]150°F[/TD]
  [TD]1.8 seconds[/TD]
  [TD]0.5 second[/TD]
  [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

 Most water heaters come factory set (or  with a factory recommended setting) at 120°F - it is recommended you  follow manufacturer's recommendations for the temperature setting to  provide further protection against burns or scalding.

-Bill

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

bill
I actually did put a mixing valve coming out of the propane hot water heater.
Not a cheep little device.
thanks gww

jcheil · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

You could also add some pipe to the end of that emergency over-pressure/over-temp valve so that when (if) it does open, the water will just go outside onto the ground or some other place rather than inside your house.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

j
Yea, short term that might be the easiest. Today might be another test as it is finally sunny as all heck outside. I have a sub-pump about 4 feet away so I may just try and hose/funnel it to there untill I see what the 160 degree temp does to me. Hard to get to the pop-off drain as it is right up against the wall, but think I will get on that now.

Battery this morning
The sg was low cell 1.218. draw was 600 watts. I ran a fan on the carpet all night.

Thanks for the suggestion.
gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

I installed the trimetric today. Man naws is fast, thats like one day delivery. I just hooked it up normally cause I could see no way to just measure loads.

I put one more danger area for the battery to short out if I ever drop the possotive battery wire and acidently touch the shunt. I covered the shunt and wiring with a plastic dry wall screw box. I got pvc pipe cut in half covering the battery bus and now I got more wires that are not in conduit. I cut the forktruck connector off and just have ends crimped on the battery cables and man it makes me nervious when I have one of them lose.

I just put the absorb voltage, battery capasity and 16 amps as the charged amps. I didn't see the 94 percent charging eficiancy and that stuff so I guess I will be reading the manual.

I ran a hose, changed the top thermostat and set the top element to 115 or so and the bottom to about 140 or so. I think the pop-off is bad now that it poped once cause I lost a little through it again today. Good ideal on the piping "Jcheil".

gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

I woke up and the battery monitor said the battery was at 77% SOC. The load at the time was 30 something amps. Voltage was 48.8 but when the load went down to 15 amps the voltage was 49.2. It doesn't tell me what might be normal as when my wife is home we use quite a bit more power.

I forgot to write down yeterdays production on my calender and when I shut everything down to install the trimetric I lost all that data. No biggy, just used to getting it recorded incase I ever want to add it all up someday.

gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

I updated my signature, so it shoul be easier to see what I am working with.
gww

jcheil · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

You're very welcome for the pipe idea

Also, I am 99% sure that all of these battery meters (like my FNDC) "assume" that the batteries are at 100% when you first connect it.
So if they were not, your readings will be incorrect.

When I hooked mine up, I ran the genny and let the solar charge it and took SQ readings until I "knew" they were fully charged, then hooked it up.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

j
I doubt it was 100% but it was pretty good. My sg on the low cell was 1.278 and I have only seen it that high maby during the last three full charge cycles. It used to only get to 1.272 even during eq. They were as charged as they get without eq. Since I set my charging at 16 end amps and absorb voltage, the next time it says 100% should be pretty close. Am I right on this?

Thanks
gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Ok, What does it mean?

My battery has been in absorb for 45 min. It is only accepting 9.9 amps. I know it isn't charged cause the sg is 1.270. I got 1.278 yesterday and believe before the day is out I will get it again.

I have the voltage on the trimetric set at 61.2 volts. In absorb it is fashing 61.0 to 61.2 volts and evey once in awhile 61.3 volts. the trimetric reads that it is 99% full.

So Why hasn't the trimetric called the battery full yet? 61.2 volts and 16 end amps has been met. The battery is not full per sg but I would like to get the settings where it matches actual full battery.

2. Should I worry about anything because the battery is only taking ten amps but is not charged?

3. To bring the trimetric in line, should I lower the voltage to 61 volts from 61.2 and should I lower the end amps to 8 from 16, so that when it says battery is charged, I will be able to rely on the reading?

Any thoughts any one?
Thanks
gww

Blackcherry04 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Here is what the manual says. Time Filtering " They are filtered with a time constant of about 4.8 minutes." So the volts and amps will have to remain steady for at least 4.8 Minutes. Anytime they fluctuate , it starts over again.

" It is also (optionally) possible to set a third condition: that the above conditions must be sustained for a minimum time which you set by Program P14."

Cariboocoot · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

I wonder why you have the Voltage set so high? Raising Absorb Voltage can only go so far for substituting Absorb time; beyond that you're just cooking plates. This is why EQ is done only occasionally.

If the End Amps point has been reached then Absorb should stop and Voltage drop to Float level. It sounds like this isn't happening. Why not?

Do not rely on a TriMetric for accurate SOC readings when installed in an already-in-use system. You will be guessing forever at what the actual Amp hour capacity and efficiency are. You can only use it to watch Amp hours in/out to know if you are reaching net zero value or not.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Blackcherry
I did read that but was trying to not have to get into the advance menues. I also read that setting the voltage a bit lower then you cc would stop problims of not meeting battery charged. I have been through the manual sevral times. It is throwing me that my battery is only accepting 10 amps but is not charged. The manual likes their defaut settings and I think I am going to try to get it to work first from the basic level 1 menue and later I may get adventerous and do more.
Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

One other thing about Voltage: take readings with a good DMM at the charge controller output and the TriMetric input to make sure they agree what Voltage the battery is at. Otherwise the battery Voltage may be 60, the charge controller says 62, and the TriMetric 61. If the programmed Absorb level is 61.5 everything is out of whack then.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

coot
I have the voltage that high because set at what they use a constant charge at was not bringing the sgs up no matter how long it took. That was absorb of 57.2.
I discused it with the battery makers and 61.2 is what we come up with. That did used to be my eq point which is now 63.2. He did mention as my batteries got easier to charge this might be lowered a bit. It did improve my sg level at all times and no longer are the batts sitting at 1.240 and never going anywhere. Another thing is that at about 58.5 volts my opertunity load starts to come on so it will be at that voltage or higher for an hour to an hour and one half before reaching absorb voltage.

The reason I dont stop at 16 amps is cause the sg has never been high enough when I reach that point. The meter just reinforces what I knew buy using math.
If I let it go another hour the sg will be as high as it gets.

I have never used end amps for a couple of reasons.
1. I have two charge controllers and wind turbines. no way to set it.
2. I have the opertunity load that keeps me from getting imedeatly to absorb so very seldon do I see a full 4 hour absorb.
3. My loads are usually larger so I don't reach absorb for the 4 hours.

I put 4 hours for the max absorb cause I don't meet that except every ten or less days when I make sure the sgs climb high enough.

I am getting only ten amps but it will probly take the rest of the day for the sg to max.

Your thoughts?
gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Coot
I have did that with everything but the new meter. I had three multimeters and three pieces of equipment that read differently. I finally decided that the mate and sears clamp meters where the most accurate. The two cc at max calabration could be brought in line with each other but not with the inverters. My cc read .2 higher then the inverters and sears clamp meter and are programed to reflect this. So when they say 61.4 the battery is 61.2.

Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

My thoughts are that the batteries haven't been commission charged properly and it's too late to change that, they aren't being fully charged ("My loads are usually larger so I don't reach absorb for the 4 hours") which isn't helping one bit, and in short they are doomed. The fact that they have a large capacity means you probably have quite a bit of time left but ... it's already too late to expect them to meet their supposed capacity rating. In essence you're using your battery as a really big capacitor; always in a state of charging flux. Batteries really do not like being treated like this. LifePo type would handle it better, but that's a ton of money and more experimentation.

Ever checked to see how much those turbines contribute? They may do more harm than good, placing limitations on charging parameters.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Should I stop at 16 amps no matter the sg? Should I consider lowering my absorb although the opertunitie load has did that a bit for awhile? I did think the trimetric giving real time amps would help me set a realistic time value for absorb cause I could see what was making it to the battery and when. But my sgs are low even though the amps are also low.
gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Coot I write down what the turbines do every day. Not much.
Don't get upset with me. I have read everything I can for the last 5 years and am trying to get it right. I still don't know what to look for exactly and don't really know what I am doing wrong. I talk and call the people who do know and get advice. I may not catch on that quick but am doing my best. I do ask a lot of questions trying to figure it out.
gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Coot
how do ofgrid guys use there batteries? Arent they always in a state of charging flux? I am not being a smartalic, I really am not understanding your point.
Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Yes, you need the TriMetric to see how much current is really going to the battery as opposed to just coming from the charge sources. Your opportunity loads are probably so parasitic that they interfere too much with the charging process, even with the tenth day "full charge" regime.

I think that 62-ish Volts is contributing more heat and water loss than actual gain is charging. Turn it down to 60 and you should be able to spend more time at that level on account of being able to reach it sooner and maintain it longer.

Can't recall how your opportunity loads are connected and activated. SOC or V-based 120 VAC loads would be simple. V-based direct DC loads (especially where adaptation has occurred) would be less predictable (R is fixed, I varies as a function of V/R where V is variable even at controlled Voltage due to I especially with sudden on/off changes).

If you think about how a forklift battery is expected to be used it's: discharge all day, recharge all night. No interruption of charging cycle or variations on available current/Voltage other than what the charger deems is necessary. You are seeing the dreaded micro-cycling all off-grid systems experience occasionally, only amplified dramatically by both the size of the system and the opportunity loads.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Am I correct in that you are round about saying that, I should be charging at a lower but steady rate for longer times and then my battery would be at full copasity when the get to only accepting 16 amps?
Thanks
gww

Cariboocoot · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

gww1 wrote: »

Am I correct in that you are round about saying that, I should be charging at a lower but steady rate for longer times and then my battery would be at full copasity when the get to only accepting 16 amps?
Thanks
gww

Yes.
16 Amps may yet be too high, but as you have seen the current goes down to a certain level and then reduces no further.

Your system is quite complex because it employs multiple charging sources of three different types plus the opportunity loads. Without disconnecting it all and starting from a simplified redesign you will be stabbing at what/where the problem is. One of the most tedious aspects of diagnosis is the need to eliminate variables until you get to controllable results, then add components back in until the problem returns. That's when you know what's giving you trouble. The sheer mass of a forklift battery means this is not something that can be made to appear quickly and easily.

The shortcut route is to accept the erratic running knowing it is eating life of your battery (which ought to last 20 years under ideal conditions) and adjust just those things which make the system function to your needs. This may start with reducing the programmed capacity in the TriMetric to 50% of expected (run from 0% to 100% instead of 50% to 100%) knowing that despite the probably reduced real capacity the forklift battery can actually go down to 80% DOD and it is unlikely you've lost 30%. It's throwing away a sizable amount of stored Watt hours, but that may be the price of functionality here.

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

The opertunity load is through the inverter turned on by an ssr that the cc auxilary starts activating at 3 volts prior to absorb. This is what it looked like today on the trimetric. Prior to the opertunity load and with house loads the battery recieved a building of amps with a steady 60 to 65 amps going to the battery with very little fluctuation. at the point the opertunity load kicked on the amps going to the battery dropped to a pretty steady 40 amps I went into the house when the oppertunity load was 100 % on and the batteries had reached 61.2 volts. at that time the amps going in the batteries was 30 and the ccs were cutting solar production. It may not be normal due to not as many things going on in the house but I did see the mate reflecting up too 800 watt and down to 200 watt loads while watching. Over all the amps as listed where quite steady. we do have enough wind today that the amps increased by 5 or six every so often but mostly stedy as listed.

I have put exactly 1 and not quite 1/2 gal. of water monthly every month except last month since I owend the batteries. That has not changed when I was charging low voltage or the high voltage now. The batteries were 64 degrees at absorb time and may reach 70 degrees at end of day.

The 240 volt load on the ssr does osculate untill it reaches 100% but it wasn.t noticed on the trimetric, just amps droping from 60ish to 40ish.

I discussed the ideal that I couldn't use 8 hours charge constant 8 hour and rest 8 hours with the battery maker. He thought it would work.

I will try the 60 volts and see. The battery is definatly charging a bit easier then when I first got it and the sgs just would not move.

I will change it tonight. One question. Should a guy worry about winter summer charging volts being the same with out temp comping the charging?

Thanks
gww

gww1 · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Coot
because I type so slow I am always way behind your post. Basically if I have it right change the 800 to 400 hundred in the capasity setting, Correct.
The trymetric really doesn't control anyting so if I never relied on the percent charge and just used sgs as I am now, the monitor would still tell me how many amps I take out and how many were put back in regardless of settings? That is uless it can't reach 800 I guess. So at 400 and a 94 percent charge efficancy when I get to the 400 I will have put 6 % more then I took out.
I will try that after I try the 60 volt absorb thing and change the trimeter to reflect and see what happens tomorrow. Or it you think I will be led less astray I will change it today? I think I will set the end amps at 14 and see what the sg is after a 60 volt absorb?
gww

Cariboocoot · October 2014

Re: My battery soc

Having the opportunity loads on the AC side is a big help for stabilizing the way they affect the system; not as much variation to the DC side just as you have noticed.

However, I don't think you want the opportunity loads coming on before Absorb level is reached, especially not if they are dropping the charge current to 40 Amps which is only 5% of 800 Amp hours. Big batteries like their current; see if you can adjust that to opportunity loads not dropping the current so much and/or coming on so early. Really you want maximum current all the way through Bulk if possible.

For what it's worth I manually switch mine on when I know Absorb has been reached and there's enough power leftover that the panels can handle the additional 1kW or so with little effect to charging. This is not at the start of Absorb. If I tried to automate this I doubt it would work as well; too many factors to consider.

Temperature compensation of charging Voltage is a good idea at any time of year because it is based on battery temperature, not ambient. It is difficult to get a probe on a forklift battery though; you can't tuck it in between batteries. Otherwise it is a question of how much the environment where your battery is changes with the season. If it gets much hotter in Summer or much colder in Winter you will want to adjust parameters accordingly. Another issue with multiple charge sources that don't share data; they won't agree on temperature corrected Voltage either.

If you were to strip this system down so that it was one battery and one charger you could test that and see what results you get. If the battery doesn't charge, then either it or the charger is at fault. You could then test the charger on another 'identical' battery to see if both behaved the same (indicating the charger is not right) or the second battery works (indicating the first battery is not right). In essence this is what commission charging tries to achieve: we charge the battery fully, without loads, to see if it will in fact fully charge.

But that is in the theoretical, not the practical. The trouble is the practical has all those other factors involved and eliminating them is problematical.

My battery soc

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