Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

Rune
Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
I am looking to get some advice on where I should be aiming for my solar system. I have an off-grid property in Sonoita, AZ that I am going to be developing into a wine tasting room based out of a 8' x 40' shipping container. It will definitely be a bare-bones approach. Nothing lavish by any means. I have a few loads that I know of that I can use for sizing purposes:

1. Wine Fridge - Uses roughly 700-800Wh per day
2. Laptop Charging ?
3. Phone Charging ?
4. Wireless internet antenna, router/hub (ordered a kill-a-watt to gauge these unknowns)
5. Water pump from storage tank to supply toilet, bathroom sink, tasting room sink, 2 exterior hose bibs, exterior mister system for evap cooling in the summer months (any recommendations on a pump here?)
6. Interior LED lighting (not sure how much I will need to light the space accordingly - How many watts do you think for the small space?) Not open during the nighttime, but may be useful on occasion....
7. Exterior LED lighting (Roughly 1000 square feet of patio, maybe 4 floodlights?) Not open during the nighttime, but may be useful on occasion....
8. Propane H2O heater (Would my best bet be a RV water heater style or should I go with a more domestic instant style?)
9. Small stereo system (ordered kill-a-watt to see here)
10. Small Television - used sparingly - 120Wh per day

I would like to have a little room expansion in the system in case I need it. Who knows if I will want to have a small fridge/freezer in the future, or need additional capacity elsewhere. I would hate to have too little power and have to scrap my system for an upgrade.
However, If i had a system that I could add onto easily that would be great.
Tasting room will only be open 4 days a week, and I would like to have a backup generator just in case the weather does not cooperate.

Can anyone give me a general idea of where I stand?
What size system (ballpark) should I be looking to setup?
Also, can you run DC items off of the solar battery bank before the inverter? (IE If I wanted to add a 12v DC RV furnace down the road?)

Thanks. Looking forward to exploring this further.

Comments

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Well first you need to find out how much for a utility hook up. You will find that off grid solar is expensive, about $1-$2 a kWh with equipment cost over the life of the system.
    Second you need to list all your loads in kWh per day, real numbers from a kill-o-watt is a good way to know.
    Third a off grid setup generally requires a generator to provide battery charging back for the times when the solar can't bring the batteries back to a decent state of charge.
    Fourth off grid requires maintenance, it certainly isn't plug and play, battery Specific Gravity needs checking regularly and adjustments made to ensure you don't kill you batteries prematurely.
    Fifth with off grid excess watts from the panels will just "fall on the floor" once the batteries are charged, unless there are some opportunity loads you can use once the batteries are full.

    Off grid probably will never pay back vs grid connection.

    That being said if you can get a utility hookup then grid tie solar can be done for pretty reasonable cost, no batteries required and only a grid tie inverter is needed to attach to the utility to keep you meter at bay. A key to making this work is also to know your loads and the utility net metering plan. Are you APS or SRP or some other utility?
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Go to Costco and get a 3 pack of the Chandelier lights, you will be amazed at what 12 Watts can do for lighting up the interior of a SeaCan....
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Dave -

    I am looking at around 2200ft to the nearest power location. All power has to be installed underground, and the power company quoted me roughly $45k for the install @ $20/foot. Plus, I have to dig my own trench for them.

    So the plan all along has been to invest in an off-grid setup. The reasoning behind this is not to escape power bills, but as something new to try that I feel passionately about -sustainability.

    I have the kill-a-watt on order, actually ordered it as I was writing my post earlier. That will allow me to have an exact measurement for the equipment I currently have on hand. However, planning for new equipment, fixtures, etc can't be done with a kill-a-watt so I am a little unsure how to go about that. I am thinking a ballpark guesstimate would be the most ideal for the smaller stuff like laptop charging, phone charging, etc.

    I would like to have a backup genset as well, especially as this is a commercial venture. I currently have a 1000watt Honda generator that is really quiet, perhaps that would be enough to help aid in my needs?

    Maintenance is not a problem. Would you suggest AGM or Flooded batts? I can do the maintenance as I have maintained forklift batteries at my job. Never used AGM and was wondering if they were better?

    I don't want excess watts! Maybe a system where I can add more panels if need be?
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Chandelier lights -

    These guys?

    http://www.instructables.com/id/Lights-of-America-LED-candelabra-Lighbulbs/
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Rune wrote: »
    Dave -

    I am looking at around 2200ft to the nearest power location. All power has to be installed underground, and the power company quoted me roughly $45k for the install @ $20/foot. Plus, I have to dig my own trench for them.

    So the plan all along has been to invest in an off-grid setup. The reasoning behind this is not to escape power bills, but as something new to try that I feel passionately about -sustainability.

    I have the kill-a-watt on order, actually ordered it as I was writing my post earlier. That will allow me to have an exact measurement for the equipment I currently have on hand. However, planning for new equipment, fixtures, etc can't be done with a kill-a-watt so I am a little unsure how to go about that. I am thinking a ballpark guesstimate would be the most ideal for the smaller stuff like laptop charging, phone charging, etc.

    I would like to have a backup genset as well, especially as this is a commercial venture. I currently have a 1000watt Honda generator that is really quiet, perhaps that would be enough to help aid in my needs?

    Maintenance is not a problem. Would you suggest AGM or Flooded batts? I can do the maintenance as I have maintained forklift batteries at my job. Never used AGM and was wondering if they were better?

    I don't want excess watts! Maybe a system where I can add more panels if need be?

    Well you certainly can do a nice off grid system for less than $45K. Good you have battery experience, fork lift batteries are used by a few guys here but would probably be over kill for your application. I am grid tied so I really am not the best guy to advise you on your situation, but many here are well versed in off grid requirements and how to get setup. Your Honda generator should be a great addition to poor weather charging, I know we don't get much of that here in AZ. :D
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Do you have any hill area, to perch water tank on for pressure ? Or a water tower (earthquake codes ?) Water pumps are pretty hungry beasts, and live longer with fewer cycles of On / Off. If you can pump on sunny days and have gravity do the rest of the work, then you don't worry so much about "do I have enough power to start the pump"? How deep is the well ?

    What does local building code say about a public wine tasting room - will they allow a container to be used ? Allowed hot water heater styles (RV type in a commercial application !!) Dishwashing temperature requirements, pump and heater for the dishwasher ? Vented / unvented propane heater?

    Solar, if you can place the batteries in an outside shed, you won't have to deal with acid and hydrogen inside with people. Chose flooded over agm if possible.

    System is not likely to be 12V, 24 or 48V is more suited to the loads the inverter will surge to for motor starting.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Rune wrote: »

    yes, except they use a different design with a GREAT diffuser and nit multiple leds. new tech
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Mike,

    So the water situation:

    I drilled a well with a static water level of 410ft. I have been talking with the guys over at SunPumps and figured out a solution. The plan is to use one of their pumps, (its a 240v DC pump that can do 12-15 GPM, the max the well can produce) and pump the water into a 2500gal storage tank. This pump will need 2500 watts of panels directly wired to it. Supposedly, they cannot be used for anything but the pump according to the salesman, but I think that can be worked around somehow?

    Anyways, From the storage tank I have another SunPump. Basically, a little solar powered pump that will send water to my tasting room which is about 1000ft from the well-site. There is a little topography on the property, but the wellhead is at the lowest part of the property so I will have to pump the water with power unfortunately. At the tasting room, I plan on having a storage tank as well. Something that can easily supply the TR with water off of the solar system. For this pump, I am thinking of a 24v Shurflo pump that does not require a pressure tank. It shouldn't use much power at all. I live in a trailer now and can go off of one 12v battery for about 2 days. That includes lights and pump use. I would hope to have a beefy enough system to make it through a coupe days with my setup.

    Good call on the building codes. I am in an agricultural zone property, so I can circumvent building code requirements due to my agricultural status. However, I do need to have a three compartment sink, concrete parking pad for ADA, and grab bars for the restroom. Will go flooded on the batts - thanks for the input.
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    What design do they use? Not exactly sure how I can take these chandelier bulbs and make them look nice without a sharp looking diffuser!
    westbranch wrote: »
    yes, except they use a different design with a GREAT diffuser and nit multiple leds. new tech
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Attachment not found.

    Here is the wellsite, looking up towards the TR location on the hill with the shrubbery.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    this is it

    http://www.costco.com/Feit-Chandelier-LED-|-40W-Replacement-|-Uses-4.8W-|-310-Lumens-|-3%2c000K-Soft-White-|-25%2c000-Hours-|-4-pack.product.100116351.html

    up here the sell them in 3 pack.... in the picture it shows the diffuser.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    How are you going to keep that tin can cool out in the desert? Think about that.
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Sonoita is not too bad - Property is at 5,000ft elevation. Summer daytime temps can reach mid 90's for a couple hours, but will cool down to the mid-low 60's at night.

    The current plan is to utilize two shade structures on each of the long sides of the container. On the roof I would like to lay out hay bails one high, then seed with native vegetation.

    Off of the shade structures there will be misters, and there will be good airflow through the container (one french door on each side of the container) and possibly add a small evap cooler down the road if need be. I'll just have to wait and see. Hence building in a little fudge factor to allow for some wiggle room down the road is ideal.

    If it turns out that I need to use an A/C unit, I will run it off a small Honda generator. I don't think it would make sense to put in the capacity for running conventional A/C off solar as it will only be used sparingly for a short period of the year, and the business will not be open 7 days a week.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    Look at a good quality Mini-Split A/C system... They can be very efficient and actually not too bad on a solar power system.

    If you need heat--Heat Pump versions are pretty efficient too. Some folks use them down to freezing and a bit below.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    The time comes to start piecing this thing together and take the flak that is due. I think this system would give me some room to expand, as the inverter is a little over-sized but who knows if I will want to run the occasional power tool, etc.

    So in my rudimentary analysis, This is what I am thinking:

    24v 4000w MagnaSine Pure Sine Wave Inverter
    Xantrex 60 amp MPPT charge controller
    E-panel with 250 amp DC breaker
    Midnite Solar combiner box (what size should I be looking for?)
    4 Crown CR-430 6v Batteries 1720 AH
    6 x SolarWorld 240w Monocrystalline Panels (can upgrade to more panels later with this system correct?

    Thoughts, comments, concerns?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Rune wrote: »
    So in my rudimentary analysis, This is what I am thinking:

    24v 4000w MagnaSine Pure Sine Wave Inverter
    Xantrex 60 amp MPPT charge controller
    E-panel with 250 amp DC breaker
    Midnite Solar combiner box (what size should I be looking for?)
    4 Crown CR-430 6v Batteries 1720 AH
    6 x SolarWorld 240w Monocrystalline Panels (can upgrade to more panels later with this system correct?

    Thoughts, comments, concerns?

    Magnasine inverter: avoid.
    Xantrex charge controller: avoid.
    Other equipment is just fine. Just my opinion.

    The four Crown batteries will not be 1720 Amp hours. They will be 430 Amp hours @ 24 Volts (Amp hours do not add up in series, only Volts do).

    Six 240 Watt panels should supply 46 Amps on a 24 Volt system so that is fine. You could put two more on and that would max out a 60 Amp controller.
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Magnasine inverter: avoid.
    Xantrex charge controller: avoid.
    Other equipment is just fine. Just my opinion.

    The four Crown batteries will not be 1720 Amp hours. They will be 430 Amp hours @ 24 Volts (Amp hours do not add up in series, only Volts do).

    Six 240 Watt panels should supply 46 Amps on a 24 Volt system so that is fine. You could put two more on and that would max out a 60 Amp controller.

    Thanks for the advice on the batteries. Learning has occurred.

    Is a 4000w inverter a reasonable stretch for this system?

    I have an acquaintance who is selling an off the grid home, and recently tied into the grid in hopes to sell it faster. He was going to sell the inverter, charge controller, combiner box, e-panel, and all the breakers/wiring he had in his system for $1900. That's why I specced those two items. At those prices, would you still avoid? Equipment is 1 year old.

    When looking at solar panel amps, what is the difference between Isc and Imp?

    Thanks for your input.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room

    A 430 AH battery bank @ 24 volts would suggest the maximum size inverter of around 2.3 kWatts... The battery bank will not be able to "reliably" supply much larger loads (2.3 kWH continuous short term, 4.6 kW surge). A 4kW inverter can supply almost 2x that amount of power.

    An over-sized inverter can take more power to just "turn on" (tare losses). Look at the minimum power draw of the inverter and see if it is within your system's ability to supply (10-40 watt load when inverter is "on" is common--even when not driving any other loads).

    Sometimes, it makes sense to have two inverters... A small one to supply a few hundred watts (lights, cash register, laptop, networking) and a second one you turn on when needed (power tools, A/C, etc.).

    Also look at the brand and age of the inverter... Inverters (really any electronic/power devices) over ~5 years old may need repairs, and inverters over ~10 years old can be difficult to find parts and service.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Rune wrote: »
    Is a 4000w inverter a reasonable stretch for this system?

    I have an acquaintance who is selling an off the grid home, and recently tied into the grid in hopes to sell it faster. He was going to sell the inverter to me for $1300 and the charge controller for $400. That's why I specced those two items. At those prices, would you still avoid?

    A 4000 watt inverter is reasonable on a 24 volt system as long as you don't actually draw 4000 watts. It's good to run equipment conservatively, well within their specs. Your batteries couldn't handle 4000 watts for very long either.

    If you don't need 240 volt service, I recommend an Outback VFX inverter They also have lower tare loss than the Magnums. Considering the price, the magnum and xantrex don't look too bad... The magnum is probably a better deal than the xantrex.

    When you order your epanel, be sure to specify the inverter and controller so they can include the correct breakers and front door. You can buy ePanels with inverters and controllers all prewired.... saves a huge amount of time, and being professionally wired there is less chance of a DIY bad connection causing a fire.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    vtmaps wrote: »
    A 4000 watt inverter is reasonable on a 24 volt system as long as you don't actually draw 4000 watts. It's good to run equipment conservatively, well within their specs. Your batteries couldn't handle 4000 watts for very long either.

    If you don't need 240 volt service, I recommend an Outback VFX inverter They also have lower tare loss than the Magnums. Considering the price, the magnum and xantrex don't look too bad... The magnum is probably a better deal than the xantrex.

    When you order your epanel, be sure to specify the inverter and controller so they can include the correct breakers and front door. You can buy ePanels with inverters and controllers all prewired.... saves a huge amount of time, and being professionally wired there is less chance of a DIY bad connection causing a fire.

    --vtMaps

    Great info. I forgot to add in my last post (now edited) that the magnum inverter, e-panel (wired for the magnum), combiner box, charge controller, and all the breakers, wiring, etc. that he has for his system was going to be $1900. All of that is for the price of the outback shipped, which if I didn't have the opportunity I think I would go that route for a better system (as it appears to be so from comments). But I don't think I can pass that up as I am on a budget (aren't we all??).

    If I go with the 430AH battery bank at 24volts, is there any upgrade potential there by adding additional batteries to accommodate future loads?
  • Rune
    Rune Registered Users Posts: 11
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    BB. wrote: »
    A 430 AH battery bank @ 24 volts would suggest the maximum size inverter of around 2.3 kWatts... The battery bank will not be able to "reliably" supply much larger loads (2.3 kWH continuous short term, 4.6 kW surge). A 4kW inverter can supply almost 2x that amount of power.

    An over-sized inverter can take more power to just "turn on" (tare losses). Look at the minimum power draw of the inverter and see if it is within your system's ability to supply (10-40 watt load when inverter is "on" is common--even when not driving any other loads).

    Sometimes, it makes sense to have two inverters... A small one to supply a few hundred watts (lights, cash register, laptop, networking) and a second one you turn on when needed (power tools, A/C, etc.).

    Also look at the brand and age of the inverter... Inverters (really any electronic/power devices) over ~5 years old may need repairs, and inverters over ~10 years old can be difficult to find parts and service.

    -Bill

    Bill - I like the idea of running a smaller inverter for the simpler things in life. Much more efficient than having a large inverter turned on all the time.

    Question on the battery bank, which I am still researching how they work. How can I get more capacity in the future from the 24v system or am I pretty much maxxing out 24v with my proposed setup? Should I be thinking of going 48v if I want to run larger loads in the future?
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Rune wrote: »
    If I go with the 430AH battery bank at 24volts, is there any upgrade potential there by adding additional batteries to accommodate future loads?

    Yes. More battery means that you can draw reasonable, moderate loads for longer between charging. No amount of battery will make it reasonable to draw 4000 watts for any amount of time... that should be a 48 volt system.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Off Grid Wine Tasting Room
    Rune wrote: »
    Mike,

    So the water situation:

    I drilled a well with a static water level of 410ft. I have been talking with the guys over at SunPumps and figured out a solution. The plan is to use one of their pumps, (its a 240v DC pump that can do 12-15 GPM, the max the well can produce) and pump the water into a 2500gal storage tank. This pump will need 2500 watts of panels directly wired to it. Supposedly, they cannot be used for anything but the pump according to the salesman, but I think that can be worked around somehow?....

    1) I would NEVER size a pump to run at the well capacity. in 2 years, if the well can only sustain 11GPM, your pump will start short cycling or just run dry and burn out.
    What are your water needs, my place with 3 people, consumes about 4GPH (96 gallons a day) according to my flow meter into the slow sand filter. In winter, I can just run my pump about 1x a week (on a sunny day) and top the tanks (4tanks, 3,000 gal) off, and gravity feed the rest of the time. 100 gallons a day, can easily be pumped in 2 hours at 1GPM with a lot smaller PV array and smaller pump. Figure an average day you get 4 hours sun (winter clouds and such) you would still fill the tanks. So, run an expected water usage, and see what you need, not what they are willing to sell.

    2) commercial site serving customers, do you have any potable water testing requirements ? If I subdivide and have more than a couple dwellings, I have to have monthly lab tests on water quality. I currently aerate the raw water in the holding tanks, with a deep water aquarium pump (30 watts) and keep the water in my 1500 gal filtered tank clean with an ozone bubbler (55W). My water is sourced from a 2 Acre Ft pond, so I have to treat it with a slow sand filter, and then keep it polished, didn't want to use bleach, meter rigs and such.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,