Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

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Alaska Man
Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
Why are more people not using a battery that lasts 25 years instead of 5 and can take a good deal of abuse without kicking the bucket? For the same amount of usuable storage NI-FE cost about the same as my AGM's, but because they last 5 times longer that makes them 5 times cheaper over the average life of an RE system.

Just curious......
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

    I'd like to see your math, I thought you were talking about forklift batteries...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Alaska Man wrote: »
    Why are more people not using a battery that lasts 25 years instead of 5 and can take a good deal of abuse without kicking the bucket? For the same amount of usuable storage NI-FE cost about the same as my AGM's, but because they last 5 times longer that makes them 5 times cheaper over the average life of an RE system.

    Just curious......

    Well I like to use batteries that last longer than 5 years, take a fair amount of abuse, don't take up huge amounts of space, and are readily available at a reasonable cost.

    They're called flooded lead-acid and so far the other technologies haven't really proven to be all that superior.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

    The NiFe batteries are bulky. They are thirsty. They are only 70% efficient, PbH2So4 are 80%. And NiFe does not sulfate, it carbonates.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    mike95490 wrote: »
    The NiFe batteries are bulky. They are thirsty. They are only 70% efficient, PbH2So4 are 80%. And NiFe does not sulfate, it carbonates.

    Thanks that's what I was looking for. I knew there must be a reason or three.
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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Photowhit wrote: »
    I'd like to see your math, I thought you were talking about forklift batteries...

    Check it out. http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery

    I spent $5,500 on (8) 220 AH 6V AGM's. That gives me about 440Ah to 75% DOD.
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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Well I like to use batteries that last longer than 5 years, take a fair amount of abuse, don't take up huge amounts of space, and are readily available at a reasonable cost.

    They're called flooded lead-acid and so far the other technologies haven't really proven to be all that superior.



    According to the Manufacturer Ni-Fe last for 25 years and can be discharged regularly down 80% of capacity without damaging them. I'm confused as to why you say they only last 5 years?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Alaska Man wrote: »
    Check it out. http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery

    I spent $5,500 on (8) 220 AH 6V AGM's. That gives me about 440Ah to 75% DOD.

    Whoa. Don't be taking those AGM's to 75% DOD.
    Or do you mean 75% SOC?
    Darn reciprocal terminology!

    Eight 6 Volt 220 Amp hour batteries on 12 Volts is 880 Amp hours and 25% DOD is 220 Amp hours, not 440. That would be 50% SOC/DOD.

    (Usual cautions about four parallel strings on 12 Volt system and need for more than one charge controller for 880 Amp hours, benefits of higher Voltage system, etc.)
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Alaska Man wrote: »
    According to the Manufacturer Ni-Fe last for 25 years and can be discharged regularly down 80% of capacity without damaging them. I'm confused as to why you say they only last 5 years?

    I didn't.
    You said FLA's only last five years. If that's all you get out of them something is wrong.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    I didn't.
    You said FLA's only last five years. If that's all you get out of them something is wrong.

    I, and our FAQ's, believe 5 years is a good life out of 6v cheap golf cart batteries. Larger cell batteries, I would expect longer life out of...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    I didn't.

    You said FLA's only last five years. If that's all you get out of them something is wrong.

    How long should one get out of FLA's? From what I'm reading on sites like this one 5-7 years is what one should expect, if they are treated well.


    Edited to add, I've been told my AGM's will last twice as long as FLA's and I have also been told they will last half as long.

    Lots of people with lots of opinions out there. That's why us Newbies spend the first few years with our heads spinning.
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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Whoa. Don't be taking those AGM's to 75% DOD.
    Or do you mean 75% SOC?
    Darn reciprocal terminology!

    Eight 6 Volt 220 Amp hour batteries on 12 Volts is 880 Amp hours and 25% DOD is 220 Amp hours, not 440. That would be 50% SOC/DOD.

    (Usual cautions about four parallel strings on 12 Volt system and need for more than one charge controller for 880 Amp hours, benefits of higher Voltage system, etc.)

    Yes, I recharge at 12.2-12.3 around 25% DOD. Dang!!! and I tried so hard to get the concept right.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Alaska Man wrote: »
    How long should one get out of FLA's? From what I'm reading on sites like this one 5-7 years is what one should expect, if they are treated well.


    Edited to add, I've been told my AGM's will last twice as long as FLA's and I have also been told they will last half as long.

    Lots of people with lots of opinions out there. That's why us Newbies spend the first few years with our heads spinning.

    Ah the elusive definitive battery life creature.

    It's easy to ruin batteries, that's why many people have bad experiences with whichever type/brand they choose and this skews the real-world statistics. In lab tests AGM's have a shorter lifespan, but again this is perhaps due to the fact they can take/give higher amounts of current and as such tend to be used that way. I haven't seen any stats on side-by-side comparison with equal use.

    How long should an FLA last in the real world?
    If the charging is right and the sizing is right (meaning it is understood that capacity diminishes with time no matter what) they should have usable life of 8-10 years. By that time the 25% original capacity DOD will be eating into the 50% remaining SOC: what starts out as 25 Amp hours per 100 to begin with is now 25 Amp hours per 75 of remaining real capacity.

    Why don't people get this much time? Wrong charge Voltage, rate, time, percentage, temperature, maintenance, DOD, loads, phase of moon ....
    It's easy to kill a battery as they start out dying the moment they are made. It's keeping them alive that's difficult. Hence the often repeated suggestion of starting out with inexpensive ones to make your mistakes on. And if you get seven years from them think how happy you'll be.
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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

    Yes, I would be very happy to get seven years. We have tried very hard to tweak everything we can and they have yet to get drawn down to 12.0v We baby them as much as we can without running the genny all the time. I have gotten a little less anal about them over the summer. They are supposed to be cycled after all.

    The Trimetric usually reads between 74%-77% when the array starts to produce in the mornings. If it's a genny day we charge at the same DOD.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    How long should an FLA last in the real world?
    If the charging is right and the sizing is right (meaning it is understood that capacity diminishes with time no matter what) they should have usable life of 8-10 years. By that time the 25% original capacity DOD will be eating into the 50% remaining SOC: what starts out as 25 Amp hours per 100 to begin with is now 25 Amp hours per 75 of remaining real capacity.

    I think the question is wrong... making this statement silly... Like saying how many miles will a gas engine car go... I wish it was a simple calc you could do with known factors. Plate thickness in a electro-chemical reaction will be a factor, so larger thicker plates should last longer.

    To expect small lead acid to last 8-10 years is not likely, our FAQ's say 3-5years for golf cart batteries(I didn't look, just from my faulty mind) I'd say that's about right for cheap golf cart batteries, I suspect they have actually gotten better in the last 20 years or so, I tortured my last set, running them down to 50% DOD regularly in the summer a sometimes more. They lasted 5 yrs and that was about a year more than I expected.

    Large banks built of single cell batteries can and do last 15 years or more, NAWS actually says something to the effect of expecting Crown Forklift batteries to last 20years or more...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #16
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

    Oh the initial battery plays a big part for sure. Don't expect a cheap one to last. But a good quality one should.

    Wherein we introduce yet another factor: cheap in price or dear in price is not necessarily an indication of the quality inside. Considering that buying a new battery is something like buying a pig in a poke, is it any wonder people caution against buying used ones?
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  • Alaska Man
    Alaska Man Solar Expert Posts: 252 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery

    I have been using my Full River AGMs hard for a year now and I have not seen any reduction in their performance. In fact, last night I was just telling the wife that they seem to be working better, after a summer of being fully charged by the array every so often.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Alaska Man wrote: »
    I have been using my Full River AGMs hard for a year now and I have not seen any reduction in their performance. In fact, last night I was just telling the wife that they seem to be working better, after a summer of being fully charged by the array every so often.

    You are not imagining things: deep cycles need some cycle time to come up to full capacity. If that initial recharging is done wrong, the life is shortened rather than lengthened.

    My East Penn's are fine after 5 years. I've had another name-brand fail within warranty, and then the replacements dropped dead just afterwards.
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #19
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    Photowhit wrote: »
    I think the question is wrong... making this statement silly... Like saying how many miles will a gas engine car go...

    Well said. A good place to start is to check the specs of the battery, they should specify an expected cycle life at a specific DoD. It's not definitive, but it's better than a finger in the air.
    Good quality 2V industrial cells are rated at 1500 cycles @ 80% DoD, Trojan T105s are rated at 800 cycles @ 80% DoD, so right there you have two different FLA batteries one lasting roughly twice as long as the other.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #20
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    Re: Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery
    stephendv wrote: »
    Well said. A good place to start is to check the specs of the battery, they should specify an expected cycle life at a specific DoD. It's not definitive, but it's better than a finger in the air.
    Good quality 2V industrial cells are rated at 1500 cycles @ 80% DoD, Trojan T105s are rated at 800 cycles @ 80% DoD, so right there you have two different FLA batteries one lasting roughly twice as long as the other.

    Then don't forget the price difference.
    Basic Trojan T105 225 Amp hour: $151 ($0.67 per Amp hour)
    Trojan 2V RE 1110 Amp hour: $353, or $1059 for 6 Volts ($0.95 per Amp hour)
    42% more for the same capacity to gain 87.5% cycle life. This could be worth it.

    Unless it is your first set of batteries and you get it wrong and watch thousands of dollars of power turn into scrap metal in one year. Extra life cycles mean nothing then.
    Or if you have no need for the huge capacity that 2 Volt cells offer, which is the main purpose of them.
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