NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

JohnnyQuest
JohnnyQuest Registered Users Posts: 1
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I find it terribly depressing when it comes to choosing the best, safest, environmentally-friendly and longest-lasting battery (Nickel-Iron ~ NiFe), the only place to turn to is either a company in Montana or one in China — http://zappworks.com and ( http://IronEdison.com or http://www.beutilityfree.com); the latter 2 companies are really just front-ends for the Chinese Changhong company.

Thomas Edison's Orange, New Jersey company, Edison Storage Battery Company, was sold off to Exide Battery Corporation in 1972. I think that the Chinese company got all the factory technology, and Exide declared bankruptcy leaving shareholders with a 2.3 billion dollar debt —*a real sell-out of the American people when you look at the details; of course, none of the white collars got jail terms like they deserved for causing such an American tragedy. A 1000Ah 48V battery from China will cost you $36K before shipping costs — outrageous, when you consider these batteries were made here in the U.S.A. in 1901.

The cost of the NiFe from the Montana Zapps company is even more expensive. Since the U.S.A. taxpayers have paid for a costly war in Afghanistan were there is plenty of nickel deposits, and we already have tons of iron ore here in the U.S.A., I do not see why the cost of these batteries is so outrageously high.

[...edit to remove a rally good political rant. Probably not going to be helpful in a technical forum. -Bill B. moderator]

Can you imagine if the hundreds of millions wasted on solar manufacturing had been put into a battery plant producing cheap NiFe batteries??? Lead acid batteries are not the batteries to use with solar systems which have 25-year warranties; lead acid batteries are not environmentally friendly like the alkaline NiFe batteries. I have a solar PV system I installed with Enphase M-250's generating 55kW per day, and I would like to have an AC-coupled battery system, but the cost of a 1500Ah NiFe battery and inverter will run me about $75K!!! It is outrageous.
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  • South Africa
    South Africa Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    I feel your pain. I believe a few of the original T Edison batteries are still working.

    There are also ZEBRA batteries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_battery
    5kVA Victron Multiplus II, 5.2kW array, 14kWh DIYLifepo4 bank, all grid-tied.


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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    I'm coming up on the point where I'm almost afraid to test for carbonates, and the prospect of changing out 100 gallons of lye, and mixing up a fresh batch, for a mere 800ah battery bank.

    The lead acid batteries are easily recyclable. There is a huge industry making them by the billions. cost is low
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    This be America Johnny (or should that be Jonny?) if you can do it better, cheaper, faster... do it! Might even be able to get a grant! exploiting countries that we have concurred in war, might not appeal to some...

    -Hadji
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    Hi Johnny,

    Just because we WANT something for less than the cost of it, does not mean that that the price is outrageous.

    Lead-Acid batteries are used in most off grid and probably most Grid-Interactive systems, because they work SO WELL, and are inexpensive.
    The FLA technology is about 160 years old, but it does work, and well.

    Knew someone who felt that a Bentley automobile was outrageously over-priced, and was pouting because he could not afford one, but that is not a problem for anyone but him.

    Lead-Acid batteries are used by many. And exhausted LA batteries are not really recycled -- the lead is re-used. It is a closed-loop system, for the most part.

    Opinions, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • KC-watts
    KC-watts Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭
    #6
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    My Xantrex C-40 40A solar charger has resistor (R-46) to clip for a NiFe or NiCd charge profile, so I looked those batteries with your same results, expensive. New to me is air contamination of the electrolyte. I'll just wait for the electrochemical cell with multiple oxidation states containing uranium or plutonium. Imagine charging a battery, where each level of charge is no longer dependent on response from the bulk medium, but gains stability in a series of steps to full charge. Let actinide cells have a chance, yes?
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  • drraptor
    drraptor Solar Expert Posts: 218 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    doesn't NiFe's long long life compared to a Flooded Lead acid battery make them more cost effective in the long run.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???
    drraptor wrote: »
    doesn't NiFe's long long life compared to a Flooded Lead acid battery make them more cost effective in the long run.
    Well, they do have a longer useful life, even with some modest abuse.
    But keeping them running for that time requires frequent water addition (a maintenance problem when off grid) and, more problematically, regular electrolyte replacement every few years, which can be quite a job as well as being expensive.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • South Africa
    South Africa Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???

    I have read articles, cannot find them now, where Nickel-Iron batteries lasted 80+ years, and still going strong. They where from when TE was still around.

    Also read where a guy bought a house and found a few in a sellar. Been there for many many years. He cleaned them, refilled and they worked perfectly after a charge.

    Apparently the original design was meant to outlast any system they where installed into, even outlast the owner, and could take a lot of abuse, so therefore they 'disappeared'. :-)

    If that was still the case today, I would get some tomorrow!

    But a while back I asked the Chinese manufacturer, tracing them from the sites in the first post: How long will they last?
    Answer: (If I recall correctly) If treated well, maybe a 11-15 years, depending on DOD.

    The price quoted, excl delivery / import etc, with what they could do with the regular maintenance ... sorry, not my cup of tea.
    5kVA Victron Multiplus II, 5.2kW array, 14kWh DIYLifepo4 bank, all grid-tied.


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  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49 ✭
    #10
    Re: NiFe - Where Are the Manufacturers???
    JohnnyQuest wrote: »
    I find it terribly depressing when it comes to choosing the best, safest, environmentally-friendly and longest-lasting battery (Nickel-Iron ~ NiFe), the only place to turn to is either a company in Montana or one in China — http://zappworks.com and ( http://IronEdison.com or http://www.beutilityfree.com); the latter 2 companies are really just front-ends for the Chinese Changhong company.

    Thomas Edison's Orange, New Jersey company, Edison Storage Battery Company, was sold off to Exide Battery Corporation in 1972. I think that the Chinese company got all the factory technology, and Exide declared bankruptcy leaving shareholders with a 2.3 billion dollar debt —*a real sell-out of the American people when you look at the details; of course, none of the white collars got jail terms like they deserved for causing such an American tragedy. A 1000Ah 48V battery from China will cost you $36K before shipping costs — outrageous, when you consider these batteries were made here in the U.S.A. in 1901.

    The cost of the NiFe from the Montana Zapps company is even more expensive. Since the U.S.A. taxpayers have paid for a costly war in Afghanistan were there is plenty of nickel deposits, and we already have tons of iron ore here in the U.S.A., I do not see why the cost of these batteries is so outrageously high.

    [...edit to remove a rally good political rant. Probably not going to be helpful in a technical forum. -Bill B. moderator]

    Can you imagine if the hundreds of millions wasted on solar manufacturing had been put into a battery plant producing cheap NiFe batteries??? Lead acid batteries are not the batteries to use with solar systems which have 25-year warranties; lead acid batteries are not environmentally friendly like the alkaline NiFe batteries. I have a solar PV system I installed with Enphase M-250's generating 55kW per day, and I would like to have an AC-coupled battery system, but the cost of a 1500Ah NiFe battery and inverter will run me about $75K!!! It is outrageous.

    Actually Changhong Batteries bought German Ni-Fe technology - not American.
    They publish Life Cycle Charts in their Solar Catalog and also published
    NEW
    Nickel Iron Battery Owners Manuals fairly recently.

    'Changhong and The Electric Indian'
    reads some of the forums here in America.

    They fessed up to a couple of big, helpful details in their new Literature for people
    that are in Reality Land who wish to listen to the actual builders
    - a multi-billion dollar Company -
    rather than some story telling USA sales hustle 'reseller' -
    as Changhong calls them.
    I send Links to China every couple of years to keep them amused.

    When time permits I'll do a Post on the new Changhong information.

    People in Canada knock BIG money off the Ni-Fe price you talk about by dealing
    directly with Changhong themselves. They use phones and email.

    I suspects the Import / Export Companies
    up there are easier to deal with.

    Changhong will deal Direct with You ANYPLACE if you can figure out how to Import the Cells into Town.

    Meanwhile there is a NEW Nickel Iron Player in the USA

    Talking what Looks like

    THE BIGGEST GAME in the History of Storage Batteries.

    Lithium or whatever - makes no difference - all Dogs compared to these fellows :-)

    Old Bill be waiting to see how the Foams, the Binders / what have you and the Zinc

    holds up in dat nasty (Lye Type) Electrolyte over time.

    Also I be steady Looking for the Sandia National Labs Reports - IF they exist.

    In todays dollars Mr. Edison and his gang spent hundreds of millions of dollars
    trying different combinations but it always came back to how fast the nasty electrolyte
    was going to slowly melt the stuff down.

    That's why they HAD to close the Ni-Fe battery factory down in 1905
    for several years to do it all again. The devils.

    Here's a Link to a Thread that was started on the NEW Ni-Fe Cells coming in July, 2014.

    http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?15302-Nickel-Iron-Batteries-US-produced


    Bill Blake
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