Living with no generator!

Out There · February 2014

Hi guys!
My generator died and after an initial repair, suffered another (serious) breakdown. I've been living (at almost the 49th parallel, in the winter) pretty much only on PV. With my smaller, older array, I was quite anxious about having to do so. My geographical location and time of year contribute to a less than ideal PV situation. I am barely hanging on. The highest voltage I've seen is 24.4; the lowest has been 23.8. We've been mostly hovering around 24.2 to 24.3 volts. Two weeks and we're still going (I have to rebuild the upper end of the genset engine!). What it's taken is extremely minimal electricity usage. We are resorting to Alladin lamp or candle light. No movies or music. The batteries are powering a few lights (short duration), the refrigerator and the well pump. I've got the old Trace 4024 set to the search mode and have all the other loads unplugged. It stays in search mode most of the time. I have really wished, during these past two weeks, that my new tower for the wind turbine had been finished. I could have used the extra juice.
So the question I have for you PV gurus is this: How long might I keep going without "topping off" the battery bank? It may be a while before my generator is up and running again… and I can't make the sun shine more. Our lives have not been hurt by having to be more conservative in our energy use, but it would be nice to be able to do a bit more.
-Brian

PS: The latest plan is to purchase a portable generator (3500 watt continuous; 4400 watt peak) for back-up, and use it to bulk charge the batteries….

Dave Angelini · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I would tell you to go buy the generator this week. You need to complete charge once a week or not be worried about buying new batteries. Good Luck!

westbranch · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

well it depends, guess you will hear that a lot... You should attempt to get a full charge every week. As it is right now those batteries are being seriously being deficit charged and are about to die an early death...The highest voltage I've seen is 24.4; the lowest has been 23.8. that 23.8 equates to about 60% DoD...

http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html#Battery%20Charging

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I suspected as much. Payday is Thursday. We're going to have to make it until then!

westbranch · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Can you rent/borrow a small 2000w Honda inverter type in the interim?

BB. · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Costco sells the Champion Genset in our area:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/products/generators/

I believe it is the "Heavy Duty" version they sell here. They are not too expensive, have had good reports on their reliability and (relatively) easy to make auto-start (automatic choke). I think this is the specific version:

http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41532/

If you can live with the noise and can use the larger genset--They will probably meet your needs pretty nicely.

If you need quiet--Then the Honda eu2000i/eu3000i or Yamaha versions of inverter generators are the only thing to spend your (hard earned) money on. The larger ones have electric start available (handy if your spouse may need to start the genset).

Another option if you are going with a medium sized Honda is the em4000sx. Has had some very vocal supporters here.

http://www.mayberrys.com/Honda/generators/em4000.aspx

Note you want to "SX" version--There are others. The SX has the electronic engine control module with auto fuel mixture control--Again easier for auto-start.

About all I know on the subject.

-Bill

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

westbranch wrote: »

Can you rent/borrow a small 2000w Honda inverter type in the interim?

We're financially dead in the water for the immediate future. There's one other possibility: I have a 1000 (surge/750 continuous) watt inverter on my pickup. I'm wondering if that would be enough to power the Trace's battery charger for a bulk charge? I can take all AC loads off the inverter output and run it strictly in the charge mode.
What worries me is that I tried the little camping generator I have (650 w) and it couldn't handle the load, at all.
-Brian

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Is it cold enough that you could freeze some water in jugs and then cycle them into and out of your fridge? Getting rid of that load would really help...........might even be able to listen to some music

3 or 4 one gallon frozen jugs in there with a couple more out freezing and ready to cycle in should do it unless you have a huge fridge.

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Sun Dog wrote: »

Is it cold enough that you could freeze some water in jugs and then cycle them into and out of your fridge? Getting rid of that load would really help...........might even be able to listen to some music

Funny you should suggest this! We've actually moved most of the perishables out to coolers, with blocks of ice, on the front porch. A block (or bag) of ice lasts a week or more at current temps.

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Out There wrote: »

Funny you should suggest this! We've actually moved most of the perishables out to coolers, with blocks of ice, on the front porch. A block (or bag) of ice lasts a week or more at current temps.

So has this allowed you to unplug the fridge? It is possible but you should keep a thermometer in your new big ice box to ensure that it is in fact cool enough. As others have already mentioned having a backup generator is really a must.........even if it is a cheap loud one.

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

We're in the transition stage (I guess…), meaning that we're un-plugging for periods of time and then letting it run for periods of time. I've been hoping to get something to work, so we haven't fully committed to dropping all loads. I've got a big pressure tank on my well, so the pump doesn't need to run all that frequently.
I did fail to mention that I got a partial bulk charge while the generator was running it's last hour and a half… and that was a week ago. I knew the partial charges weren't good for the batteries, but I've been frustrated by the financial issues. :grr

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I'm not familiar with your Trace 4024, does it have separate voltage set points for bulk and absorb? Assuming it does and that they are both set ~29.0V I would turn off ALL of your loads and set your charging amps to something between 15-20A and use your little 650 watt generator as soon as possible. If 20A kicks it out then just keep lowering the amps until it can handle it. You could also separate your strings and just charge one at a time. That way you could charge one, use it, so you don't have to be in the dark while the other string charges. Just make sure you keep that fridge and water pump unplugged so that you don't get any surprises.

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Your Xantrex is probably very similar. I do believe I can reset the charging amps. I'm not sure what the factory preset is, but that's what manuals are for, right? I'll be reading it by candlelight, tonight!

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Looks like your range of charging amps is 0-120A and your absorb voltage is tied to whatever you set your bulk at. Instead of using end amps, the absorb cycle is controlled by a programmable timer.

techntrek · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I'll offer another suggestion which I give to those on RV forums for very occasional charging or emergency charging. You mentioned your truck - forget the inverter or charger for now. Grab your jumper cables and bulk charge each pair of 6 volt batteries right from the truck's battery. Rev the engine slightly for best results, and I'd do each pair for an hour at least. Then hook everything back up and try to get the good charger working for a good absorption and float cycle.

zoneblue · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Using the largest fattest shortest jumper leads you got.

Other than that, until you can address the charging deficit, youre going to have to choose, fridge off or dead bank. Choose one, now.

Grinnin · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Out There wrote: »

How long might I keep going without "topping off" the battery bank?

Great charging can make batteries last longer, but it won't make batteries permanent. If you use them deeply they'll lose capacity. If you only use the very top and never discharge them deeply they will also lose capacity. They are not permanent.

I DON'T mean to say that you should just discharge them, but you invested in them to serve you. Since your batteries have had good maintenance, then a week or so of discharge won't kill them. If you make it a practice to always let the batteries stay discharged then you will notice their short life. Yes, time discharged is not good for the batteries, but they will probably get through a week or so just fine.

You can compare the cost of getting a spare generator and compare that to the amortized cost of batteries. Amortize over different periods. You may find that getting less for your battery dollar is not a huge cost.

I got a generator earlier this winter -- I went over 11 years without one at 45 degrees north. My first battery bank lasted 8.5 years. It was really too much battery for my panels and the most amps I could put in was C/30 which is some distance from the recommended C/10. There were a couple of times each winter where I'd be down 20% and stay there for a week or more.

I replaced those batteries and now can charge them at C/10. Still they've been through a few winters where they were down 25% to 30% and stuck there for a week. (When I get to 33% discharged I use a LOT less electricity.)

That said, I'm sure you've chased down all the phantom loads and unplugged them. I use bottles in the woodshed to make ice. Water conservation is electricity conservation.

I know this post does not have the "right" answer. I also know that batteries can tolerate some periods of imperfect charging.

Good luck.

stmar · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I have the SW4024, the factory default for charging is 30 amps. I have 4 - 12 volt Concorde AGMs and was told that my bank was too small for such a high charge rate so I dropped it to 5 amps. I am grid tied so do not need a high rapid charge. You should be able to adjust your charge rate from Menu 10, you could play with that and your small generator to get some charge into your batteries. Good luck, if you were here you could disconnect your frig, -28 wind chill this morning!!!!

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I played with the 650 watt generator, for a little over an hour, last night. I adjusted the charging amps all the way down to 5, but every time the SW4024 tried to switch to the generator for charging, the poor little thing bogged down enough to take the frequency out of acceptable range, and it clicked right back over. That little thing is just too little. I could run the refrigerator (which is now unplugged from the inverter) on it, though…. which is what I'll probably do tonight. Between that and Sun Dog's suggestion (I currently have three 1 gallon jugs of water out on my deck. It's not supposed to get above freezing for the next three days), my food should be okay. Thursday I'll be ordering the new generator. I'm getting a so-called "Hybrid". It comes from the factory ready to run on either gasoline or propane (just a hand-operated selector valve to make the change-over). I have to pay an extra $250 (over the cost of the gasoline only version) for that capability, so I'm hoping for the best.

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I'm surprised that it will run your fridge but bogs down so badly with the 5A load from the inverter. Was there any other load on the inverter at the time?

Do you have a 12V automotive type battery charger? If so, you could remove one string of batteries, separate them into 12V and try charging them with the 12V charger and your little generator.

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

There were no loads, at all, on the inverter. I shut off the breaker (in the AC load center) so that nothing could possibly start up. The SW4024 has to match voltage AND frequency before it will switch over to an AC source for charging. The slightest load on that generator causes an initial bogging. I can (and did) adjust the input voltage to allow for variance in that, but when the engine slowed, the SW4024 was just too quick to reject the change in frequency (at least that's my theory…).
When I hook up the refer (or other loads) to this generator, they don't switch off, but keep trying to run. The generator can usually catch up with those and then will run (following the surge) just fine. I like your idea of separating the string and then dividing to charge groups of 12v. As Techntrek suggested, I can do that with the truck…. but a big diesel uses a whole lot more fuel than a little Honda 650w generator…. so I might try your method before I pull the truck up to my electrical room.
Right now the only load on the batteries is the inverter in search mode. It's supposed to be clear and sunny, today, so I'm hoping for a little more PV charging.

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Can you adjust the input voltage and frequency range on your inverter? If you can lower them (for now) then maybe the 650W generator will still qualify when it bogs down. If not, just go with your 12V charger.

westbranch · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

I suspect that what is happening is, even though you have the SW set at 5 amps, the charger 'brains' do a check of the battery SoC or ? and do a test to see just how much amperage can be put into the battery. I have a 40A 12v and a 30A 24V charger and they both do this... only solution was a larger gen set. BUT you can fool it by running a car charger for a 1/4 hr and then turning on the SW. the surface charge seems to allow one to get through the check stage.. with a smaller genset.

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

The voltage is adjustable, but the inverter's input frequency (as far as I can tell) is factory set and not adjustable. That's why I think it tries but then rejects the generator's power. It's sensing it (I have an indicator light which flashes when power is present), but each time it tries to change over (audible transfer switch and indicator light) it lasts only a second, the generator bogs slightly, and then it goes back to searching. Occasionally I got an out of frequency range "error" light (only flashed - never stayed on), so I went to the menu for errors and watched that indicator change from (usually) "No" to a "Yes" whenever it tried to connect.

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Again I'm not familiar with your inverter, but as an example on mine I can adjust the low frequency input range on my AC2 (generator input) from 44-59Hz and the AC2 high frequency input from 61-70Hz. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of your inverter will chime in.

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Just did some reading and it looks like you can not adjust the acceptable frequency input range. I believe the inverter will function off of the generator within a range of 53-67Hz but the LED will flash. Once the generator's frequency is in a range of 57-63Hz the LED will go off. If there is an idle screw on the generator you could try turning it up. Once/if you mange to get it to synchronize you can look at the Meter menu to see the frequency of the generator.

Try turning off all your loads and putting the charger to 0A. Turn on the generator and once it synchronizes you should be able to look at your menu for the Hz, adjust your idle accordingly. Put your charger onto 1A and watch the Hz meter, adjust if necessary. Then keep upping the amps on the charger all the while watching the Hz meter. Looks like that generator has a max continuous rating of 550W so likely best not to go higher than 15A.

Vic · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Am late to this thread.

The Amps in the Charger menu are the AC input amps at 120V. 5 Amps is too high for this little generator. Personally, would set the Charger Amps to either 0 or 1. Allow the generator to be qualified -- flashing green light. When the inverter picks up the generator power (with ALL other loads on the output switched off), then you can slowly increase the Charger current setting.

It is possible that this generator could, possibly, run with a 5 amp AC setting, if the genset is fairly young, and the altitude at the site is not too high.

On a SW 4024, the AC charger current setting would normally be multiplied by a factor of 5 to know that approximate DC max charging amps.

These Trace/Xantrex inverters should not do any SOC testing. They behave more like a CC -- charge stage is based on battery voltage. They begin with Bulk charging. When the Bulk V setting is achieved, the timed voltage-regulated charging (really the Absorb stage) continues.

At least on the later SW plus inverter/chargers, there IS an EA value that will also terminate the timed voltage-regulated part of the normal charge cycle.

AND, as at least one other poster mentioned; there must be a neighbor from whom you could borrow a small generator (or, really any generator). Most of those who have been off-grid for a while have at least two generators, some more. Do not be afraid to ask aroung. Perhaps you are in a very low-density area, but, commonly neighbors share some things, especially in emergency situations.

My opinions. Good Luck!! Vic

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Hi Vic! I thank you and appreciate your wisdom. There's no-one who really lives very close to me - 2.5 miles from the last power pole on the road, though… so there's a chance someone in that area is living off the grid and has one. I do know that there's someone, not too distant, who has one: when this house was vacant and on the market, someone in the area did gain a TroyBilt 6kw gen set by breaking into the generator shed and "borrowing" the generator

- maybe they'll loan it back to me?
Seriously, though, I'm going to give what you suggest a try. I've got a few things, now, which may work to get me through until the new generator arrives next week.

Sun Dog · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Vic wrote: »

The Amps in the Charger menu are the AC input amps at 120V.

That certainly explains why the little generator couldn't handle it, hopefully now it will work.

Vic · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Hi Out There,

Sorry to hear of the stolen generator. Sometimes that goes along with very low density.

Excellent news that you have a new generator due next week. Sounds like you should be OK, then, except for the $$ it cost.
Please let us here know how you are doing. Good Luck, Vic

Out There · February 2014

Re: Living with no generator!

Discoveries from last night:

1) The Trace SW4024 AC Amps in goes only to "1"; not to "0"
2) The little Honda that couldn't still can't - not even at one amp.
3) Even though the little refer doesn't seem to draw a lot, without it plugged in and despite yesterday being overcast, I got to a higher voltage (25.1v) on the batteries than we've been in a week.

Today is cold for here (low 20s - in fact, we had a new record low yesterday), but it's clear and predicted to remain so for the next few days. Then we're due to have some snow on Saturday night or Sunday. I know that's not as cold as some places… but it is, for here. I'm hoping for some decent charging - hopefully enough to get us through until the arrival of the new generator. I have a few more options to try, as well. The cold also allows us to use Mother Nature as our great big refrigerator.
Wishing for the best!
-Brian

Living with no generator!

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