Home Repair of Inverters

pvoffgrid
pvoffgrid Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Hi,

I am slightly afraid of asking this question for fear of my inverters finding out about it (kind of like, don't talk bad about your car when in earshot of it, right? LOL )

Anyway, if my SW5548's were to have an issue, from what I read on here it is best to just replace them now after having used them since June 2001 when they were placed into service. However, before I read the posts saying to replace them, I was wondering about how to repair my inverters, charge controllers, etc if something happened to them. I will not be able to do that so what does a person do? I am thinking if things in this country go to heck in a hand basket and life as we know it today changes for the worse, what does one do? I love being off-grid but I am my own repair person. I can grow my own food, reset my inverters and generator by pushing buttons, etc. but that is about it.

As long as my PV system works I am fine but what if it does not?

48v Off-Grid

Modules: 5.395 kW:

(16) Kyocera KC130TM

(12) Kyocera KD-210GX-LPU

(3) Kyocera KU265-6MCA 

Batteries:

(24) Trojan Solar SPRE 02 1255 

Racks:

(2) Zomework trackers (KC130TM modules, 8 per tracker, landscape position) - facing due south

(1) Unirac ground mounted fixed rack (all KD210 modules, landscape position) - facing slightly southwest

(1) Unirac roof mounted fixed rack (all KU265 modules, landscape postion) - facing due south

Inverters:

(2) Trace SW5548

Charge Controllers:

(1) Outback MX60 - for (16) KC130 modules 

(1) Flexmax60 - for (12) KD210 modules

(1) Flexmax60 - for (3) KU265 modules

Generator:

(1) Kohler 14RESA propane

· Share on Twitter

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #2
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    Yep--Electronics are still changing pretty quickly... It gets hard to find parts after ~5-10 years. Surface mounted parts are difficult to rework without the correct tools. And anything more than a looking for broken solder joints, without a schematic, you up the creek without a paddle. Let alone access to source code and some sort of debugger for the processor/software.

    Add Complexity to a genset (what ever happen to points and condenser). New anti-pollution laws, trying to squeeze out a bit more efficiency, etc. have forced electronics/computers in everything. Even a genset that could be repaired with a hammer and a pair of pliers 40 years ago needs an oscilloscope and a logic analyzer.

    What do you do? Buy a 2nd/new device an put it on the shelf? Buy an old Lister+DC Generator or an old Onan from the 1950s? Get a hand cranked diesel tractor?

    What do you need when things go south? A mule and a plow? An MP3 player to listen to when plowing? If this stuff happens, I think much of the electrical that we cannot live without--We will be living without.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
    · Share on Twitter
  • Saggys
    Saggys Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    Watch Ebay for replacement Trace/Xantrex inverters, there is still some that pass through from time to time. Keeping a spare on hand may come in handy and would be a like in kind replacement.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    pvoffgrid wrote: »
    Hi,

    I am slightly afraid of asking this question for fear of my inverters finding out about it (kind of like, don't talk bad about your car when in earshot of it, right? LOL )

    Anyway, if my SW5548's were to have an issue, from what I read on here it is best to just replace them now after having used them since June 2001 when they were placed into service. However, before I read the posts saying to replace them, I was wondering about how to repair my inverters, charge controllers, etc if something happened to them. I will not be able to do that so what does a person do? I am thinking if things in this country go to heck in a hand basket and life as we know it today changes for the worse, what does one do? I love being off-grid but I am my own repair person. I can grow my own food, reset my inverters and generator by pushing buttons, etc. but that is about it.

    As long as my PV system works I am fine but what if it does not?
    Here are the parts you need, only you know if they are cost effective.

    http://inverterservicecenter.com/Inverters/Inverter-Repair-Parts/Xantrex-Repair-Parts/SW-5548

    The problem is buying components is you don't know what the problem is and if one thing went bad what else did it take out. You buy it on a one way trip, if it's doesn't work you eat the cost. I'll take a new one with a warranty and sleep better.
    · Share on Twitter
  • 2manytoyz
    2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    I coworker still has a dead Xantrex Prosine 3.0, purchased from eBay. The seller lied, it arrived as a paperweight. My coworker didn't follow my suggestion of immediately bench testing it when it arrived. He waited months before discovering the truth.

    It's a long story, but the short version is Xantrex does not repair inverters anymore. If you're the original purchaser, they will work with you, and might be able to sell a factory refurbished model at a reduced cost. If you're not the original purchaser, you're SOL. Their products are made in China. When they get a pallet of dead inverters, they send them back, and the factory refurbs them. If your new inverter died, chances are you get a new replacement. Your dead one goes on the pallet.

    My coworker is an electronics tech (I am too), and he replaced all the visually dead components in his inverter. Powered it up, and it instantly fried again. No schematics available. Wasting his time IMHO. Though these could have been an easy board level swap type of repair, Xantrex chose not to do this. They are considered disposable.

    I also prepare for bad times. This country is on a bad road. But pick your own reason to prepare, crap happens. In 2004, we had two back/back hurricanes that knocked out local power for 18 days. Stores closed, supermarkets empty, no gas stations open (no power).

    My setup is simple, but I have two 1800W inverters tied to my battery bank. Only one is usually powered up at one time. This provides for a hot spare if the first dies. I also have numerous MSW inverters (400W-1500W), that easily run resistive loads, and many inductive loads in a pinch. Also have the generator...
    · Share on Twitter
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    I don't think Xantrex ever " Repaired " any inverters per se, all I ever saw them do is remove and replace the boards. I asked once if they they repaired them, nope sent back for credit. They told me Xantrex just dumped them, it was cheaper to have new ones made then repair. I know for fact they never repaired the Prosine at the service center level, they wouldn't even look at them. I know now they are sent to the APC center in Elkhart IN.
    · Share on Twitter
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    2manytoyz wrote: »
    In 2004, we had two back/back hurricanes that knocked out local power for 18 days. Stores closed, supermarkets empty, no gas stations open (no power).

    God I remember that. I was in Loxahatchee. No power for 28 days, then had it for a week, then the 2nd storm, then lost it again for 2 weeks.
    Wish I was off-grid back then...
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
    · Share on Twitter
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    jcheil wrote: »
    God I remember that. I was in Loxahatchee. No power for 28 days, then had it for a week, then the 2nd storm, then lost it again for 2 weeks.
    Wish I was off-grid back then...

    Those big glass panels hold up real well with flying debris [not]

    As long as you are not in the debris path, you are ok, till the storm clouds blot out the sun. Day 2, and you are running the generator again.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

    · Share on Twitter
  • pvoffgrid
    pvoffgrid Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    Ok, I got the answers I kid of thought I would get. With all the new electronics we are kind of up a creek without a paddle. I love it when the folks who do not have PV find out I am off-grid and they just go ga-ga over that, saying "Ohh, you do not have any electric bills. That is so cool". Little do they realize................

    48v Off-Grid

    Modules: 5.395 kW:

    (16) Kyocera KC130TM

    (12) Kyocera KD-210GX-LPU

    (3) Kyocera KU265-6MCA 

    Batteries:

    (24) Trojan Solar SPRE 02 1255 

    Racks:

    (2) Zomework trackers (KC130TM modules, 8 per tracker, landscape position) - facing due south

    (1) Unirac ground mounted fixed rack (all KD210 modules, landscape position) - facing slightly southwest

    (1) Unirac roof mounted fixed rack (all KU265 modules, landscape postion) - facing due south

    Inverters:

    (2) Trace SW5548

    Charge Controllers:

    (1) Outback MX60 - for (16) KC130 modules 

    (1) Flexmax60 - for (12) KD210 modules

    (1) Flexmax60 - for (3) KU265 modules

    Generator:

    (1) Kohler 14RESA propane

    · Share on Twitter
  • 2manytoyz
    2manytoyz Solar Expert Posts: 373 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I don't think Xantrex ever " Repaired " any inverters per se, all I ever saw them do is remove and replace the boards. I asked once if they they repaired them, nope sent back for credit. They told me Xantrex just dumped them, it was cheaper to have new ones made then repair. I know for fact they never repaired the Prosine at the service center level, they wouldn't even look at them. I know now they are sent to the APC center in Elkhart IN.

    That's known as a 'board level repair', vs. component level repair. Repaired none the less. The information I mentioned came directly from Xantrex. I was on the phone with my coworker when he called about getting his inverter repaired. Labor is the most expensive item when it comes to these inverters. Makes sense to simply replace a board quickly, than to troubleshoot and replace components.

    The Prosine 3.0 is a good example of a product designed for board repair. Rather than one master board, covered in components, it's many boards inside.

    dscn3352.jpg

    dscn3353.jpg

    The Prosine 1800W inverter I own was a factory refurbished model, so they DID repair them at one point. Don't know if they still do. It's been about 5 years since I talked with the company representative.

    Outback inverters were designed to be repaired by the user. A friend had a failure, contacted the company, and they worked with him to troubleshoot the inverter. His inverter has status LEDs inside, making the job rather easy. They sent him the replacement board, and had it up/running in a few days. Shame all hardware isn't as user friendly.
    · Share on Twitter
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    you have to clean off all that smoke residue before you install that board. 8) I'm surprised the factory sent it that way :cool:
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

    · Share on Twitter
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    clarkcrossy17 wrote: »
    Aren't there any cheap inverters that even a student like me can buy and maintain? And by the way, is solar inverter cheaper compared to power inverter?

    Generally they are 2 different things.

    1. Grid tie solar inverter converts panel DC to grid AC. No batteries.
    2. Off grid inverter uses battery DC and gets that converted to household AC. There are 2 versions Modified Sine wave and True Sine Wave.
    3. Off grid solar charge controller takes panel DC and controls the input to a battery bank in a controlled fashion.
    · Share on Twitter
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    We live in a high-tech manufactured world. We have a lot of low-cost wonderful stuff as a result that makes our lives nice but sustainability and repairability is not included. We are at the mercy of this unbelievably complex global supply chain and if (God-forbid) something happens to interrupt it, virtually everyone is s.o.l. People wring their hands over how the billions of people in the undeveloped world are going to be brought on-line when the reality is that we have to rebuild our own infrastructure every five years or so. When will we ever start to build for the long term??? Go back to your cubicle, be a good serf, and quit worrying about how to be independent of the "system"!
    · Share on Twitter
  • Plowman
    Plowman Solar Expert Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    I had an internal fuse blow in my little Cobra 400W inverter when I accidentally reversed polarity. Had to open it up, desolder the fuse, and solder in a new fuse. Any problem bigger than that and I'm sure it'd end up in the recyling bin.
    clarkcrossy17 wrote: »
    Aren't there any cheap inverters that even a student like me can buy and maintain? And by the way, is solar inverter cheaper compared to power inverter?

    12V inverters are cheap, for my little off-grid power system I use a Sima 150W inverter that I bought for maybe $20 many years ago, still works fine. And unlike my Cobra 400W inverter (also cheap at ~$25), the Sima has an easily replaced external fuse.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Plowman
    Plowman Solar Expert Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    whoops, double post
    · Share on Twitter
  • Saggys
    Saggys Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    Ebay has a seller that repairs Trace, Xantrex and Magnum inverters. His ad states they are the best inverters ever built! Mine have been doing pretty good. My Trace PS2512 weighs more than the Outback VFX3524 I have.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    Saggys wrote: »
    Ebay has a seller that repairs Trace, Xantrex and Magnum inverters. His ad states they are the best inverters ever built! Mine have been doing pretty good. My Trace PS2512 weighs more than the Outback VFX3524 I have.

    Yeah there's a lot of things on Ebay. Including hackers.

    I used to repair circuit boards for a living. They paid me big money. As such there were time frame constraints to how long I could spend on a given board: more expensive board = more allowable repair time before it became economically unfeasible. The classic example of this was the time a flat of cheap boards fell in the solder pot of the assembly line. Poor line worker girl brought me a whole bin full and asked if I could fix them. I said "sure!" and dumped the lot into the trash. Then had an interesting argument about the difference between producing a $2 board at a rate of 200 per hour and paying me three times that per hour to scrape solder off it for three days.

    In our world of rapid mass production the skilled work of repair is not valued because a new one can be made faster and cheaper. Being able to assess a repair and determine if it's worth the effort is a skill few people have.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Saggys
    Saggys Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    I used to do component level board repair also. In the nineties that market started to dry up so I switched careers and now work in the electrical industry. To answer the original poster if they like their current system, that older gear is repairable if the shop has parts and is set up to repair and test the equipment properly. I know I am getting older and set in my ways as simpler is usually better in my world and the older gear is simpler to me and not made as a "throw away" like most stuff today.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Hairfarm
    Hairfarm Solar Expert Posts: 225 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    Saggys wrote: »
    Ebay has a seller that repairs Trace, Xantrex and Magnum inverters. His ad states they are the best inverters ever built! Mine have been doing pretty good. My Trace PS2512 weighs more than the Outback VFX3524 I have.

    What's his eBay handle?
    · Share on Twitter
  • Saggys
    Saggys Solar Expert Posts: 189 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    Do a search of Trace Xantrex and his ad will be in that group.
    · Share on Twitter
  • CloudBridge
    CloudBridge Registered Users Posts: 2
    #21
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    I don't think Xantrex ever " Repaired " any inverters per se, all I ever saw them do is remove and replace the boards. I asked once if they they repaired them, nope sent back for credit. They told me Xantrex just dumped them, it was cheaper to have new ones made then repair. I know for fact they never repaired the Prosine at the service center level, they wouldn't even look at them. I know now they are sent to the APC center in Elkhart IN.

    Powering my off-grid home in the woods,
    One of my (otherwise working fine) SW 4048 inverters overheats (not to the point of faulting out) because the fan stopped operating.

    The system is a pair of SW 4048's. The one with the problem was originally set up as master generator controller but had a fuse fried by lightning and was repaired by Abney Electric in Oregon. Repair shop sent it back without a working gen controller circuit so the former "slave" inverter is now wired for that service.

    The inverter with bad fan is the one previously repaired.

    Two questions
    1. Is this an easy fix to install a new fan or replace a fuse? Could I do it myself?
    2. If it's more cost effective to replace the inverter, can the working SW 4048 be paired with a XW4548 GridTie/Offgrid Solar Inverter which has replaced the SW 4048 at Schneider? IF the fan can't be repaired, I will also take that question up with Schneider, but would appreciate your thoughts.

    Many thanks!
    · Share on Twitter
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    I replaced a fan in a Prosine, not a huge undertaking. It's in service now, though to be honest, the fan seems a bit loud, so I'm likely to replace it again. I had a short thread about the adventure somewhere.

    Before replacing the fan, it would work fine until required to sustain higher wattage, then shut down...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    Saggys wrote: »
    Ebay has a seller that repairs Trace, Xantrex and Magnum inverters. His ad states they are the best inverters ever built! Mine have been doing pretty good. My Trace PS2512 weighs more than the Outback VFX3524 I have.

    A couple of the engineers from Trace/Xantrex moved on and Created Outback, I suspect they created better stuff there and it is field serviceable, replace boards in field. IMHO a better design. They have also moved along and created Midnite Solar who is likely to start cranking out inverters in the future.

    As to the weight difference, I suspect that has more to do with the design type rather than quality. I don't have time to look it up, but I recall the new 4024 Xantrex is heavier than the Outback and Magnum's in comparable sizes, also cheaper and noisier, still too new to criticize buggier...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
    · Share on Twitter
  • CDN_VT
    CDN_VT Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters
    Photowhit wrote: »
    A couple of the engineers from Trace/Xantrex moved on and Created Outback, I suspect they created better stuff there and it is field serviceable, replace boards in field. IMHO a better design. They have also moved along and created Midnite Solar who is likely to start cranking out inverters in the future.

    Over Xmas I tripped into the Midnight Hood & had a good chat with Robin & Bob about there inverters they are bringing to the market .
    They want it to be field serviceability with board replacement that anyone could swap.
    Brats should be ready for the BRAT Beta Program soon .



    VT
    · Share on Twitter
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    If you can get to the fan, and discover the specs, (RPM, volts, amps, airflow (CFM)) you can likely replace it just fine.

    Just be sure that it's the fan that is bad, and not the control circuit that failed !

    If the control circuit is dead, you can wire in a fan to be always ON. Always go for ball or hydrodynamic bearings, never sleeve bearings.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

    · Share on Twitter
  • CloudBridge
    CloudBridge Registered Users Posts: 2
    #26
    Re: Home Repair of Inverters

    Guess I'll isolate the unit to open and look. If the fan is easily accessible, will consider testing and replacing. Thanks for fan type advice.
    · Share on Twitter

Categories