240 VAC Water Pump Question

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  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I suppose I'll need to run up there and test that line to see if it actually goes to the pressure switch, then try to fire it up.
    Brian
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    It only takes 4 bolts and removing the motor cable protector to separate the pump/motor, very easy job. You should be able to buy a 110V 3-wire motor for about $300 or so. You will need to spend about another $75 to change over to a 110V control box. #12 wire would be best, but #14 is OK too. I need to know exact distances from the service entrance to the motor to give you a hard figure but from your description you should be OK.
    Out There wrote: »
    Yes, the control box is in the basement and the supply for the pump runs out of that - black, white, red and ground (if I remember correctly). There is a big capacitor in the control box. Also, the well is located about 6 feet away from the point of entry into the house. All electrical connections are less than 12 feet from the well head. I've never separated a submersible pump from the motor. How difficult is that? What am I looking at ($) for a 110v sub motor?
    Brian
    Good idea on the genset.

    If the pump is OK I see no reason to not just change over the motor if you want to save a few hundred, unless the original unit is over 7 years old and then it would be a good idea to change the entire pump/motor unit.
    If I were you I'd fire up that gen and see if the pump that's there is any good before making plans to buy a new pump or a transformer or an inverter. It should not be difficult to wire a 240 VAC line from the gen to the pump control - you'd basically hook in where the transformer has been torn out.

    You would not change the motor on the pump; you'd replace the whole unit.
    Please don't buy a flotec-they are junk. Look for a name brand pump/motor like Goulds, Franklin, etc. No Big-Box junk.
    Out There wrote: »
    The problem I have is the wiring that's left is suspicious. Nothing there looks quite appropriate to provide 240v to a major load. I don't know how it was wired previously, but this stuff is just hanging (literally) out of the AC load center. The only wires I think are even close to appropriately sized are a 10/2 (12/2?) with ground which I THINK runs to the pressure switch.
    I just got off the phone with a local well drilling/pump outfit. They have replacement motors (115v) to replace the 230 v motors. They've also got 2 and 3 wire 115v pumps. Their prices are quite high ($700 for a basic pump plus cost of control box for 3 wire unit) as compared to Amazon and eBay (anywhere from $170 to $450). I found a brand new Flotec 10gpm 115v two wire pump for $250.
    Brian
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Thank you for your very comprehensive reply! Wow! You've answered a bunch of questions I was thinking of asking (overnight) PLUS you answered a question I should have asked but didn't (Flotec).
    As to the physical set up: Well head is approximately 6 feet from the building. From the foundation, the wiring runs another 6 feet to the control box and the 240 volt feed is about 6 feet straight up (where the load center is). The wiring runs approximately 40 feet down to the pump so just at or slightly under 60 feet total run from the load center. I'm QUITE sure the pump is older than 7 years. The previous owner purchased the property in 1995. He did only use it as a "vacation get-away", so it was in part-time use for the last 18 years. From the email exchanges I've had with him, and with his near total ignorance of any details related to the well, I strongly suspect it was never changed (or serviced) in those 18 years. The house was originally built as an off-the-grid home in 1987... AND it has been completely inactive for over a year while the property has sat vacant... waiting for a buyer. This may very well be the original pump. When I pulled the pump out of the well, there was a lot of rust on the pump portion, itself, but the motor (stainless steel) was easily wiped free of any rusty dribbling.
    Again, I thank you ALL for your input on this.
    Brian
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    If you do decide to change the pump I strongly suggest you look into the Grundfos SQ series which have a "soft-start" but do not have to be used with a VFD (speed control). They also make a 110V SQ that will run on a Honda EU2000i generator (1/2 HP) which will be very friendly to your inverter and off-grid set-up (no starting surge loads).
    Something like this: http://shop.pumpsandtanks.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=404

    You should be able to get the pump in a 110V version but I need to double check that they still make it.
    Good luck.
    Out There wrote: »
    Thank you for your very comprehensive reply! Wow! You've answered a bunch of questions I was thinking of asking (overnight) PLUS you answered a question I should have asked but didn't (Flotec).
    As to the physical set up: Well head is approximately 6 feet from the building. From the foundation, the wiring runs another 6 feet to the control box and the 240 volt feed is about 6 feet straight up (where the load center is). The wiring runs approximately 40 feet down to the pump so just at or slightly under 60 feet total run from the load center. I'm QUITE sure the pump is older than 7 years. The previous owner purchased the property in 1995. He did only use it as a "vacation get-away", so it was in part-time use for the last 18 years. From the email exchanges I've had with him, and with his near total ignorance of any details related to the well, I strongly suspect it was never changed (or serviced) in those 18 years. The house was originally built as an off-the-grid home in 1987... AND it has been completely inactive for over a year while the property has sat vacant... waiting for a buyer. This may very well be the original pump. When I pulled the pump out of the well, there was a lot of rust on the pump portion, itself, but the motor (stainless steel) was easily wiped free of any rusty dribbling.
    Again, I thank you ALL for your input on this.
    Brian
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    If you do decide to change the pump I strongly suggest you look into the Grundfos SQ series which have a "soft-start" but do not have to be used with a VFD (speed control). They also make a 110V SQ that will run on a Honda EU2000i generator (1/2 HP) which will be very friendly to your inverter and off-grid set-up (no starting surge loads).

    Good luck.

    Plus you won't have to mess with getting that 240v transformer. It is a lot easier when everything is the same voltage in your system.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I have been looking at the Grundfos documentation and I'm not sure they still make the 110V SQ. I'm looking into it. I don't use a lot of Grundfos but they are a very good quality pump.

    [edit] They still make it. Grundfos is probably the worst when it comes to finding out information.
  • westbranchwestbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    that rust probably is not from the metal in the pump but from the well casing or Ferrobacteria http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_bacteria
     
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  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Well, everyone… Following Texas Wellman's advice, and taking advantage of his networking (?) ability, I was able to purchase a Grundfos 10SQ05-160 pump for just over $500 (including S/H). It took a week to get here from Florida. Over this past weekend I was able to get it installed with only one minor hiccup (The old fitting was 1-1/2" and I needed 1-1/4" The hiccup stemmed from the fact that we're located about 55 miles from Home Depot).
    I am pleased to report that we have water flowing at our house now! YAY!!! No more carting 6 gallon containers to flush and wash!
    The water which was initially pumped out was extremely rusty. I let it run for about an hour before it began running somewhat clear. Only after that did I open valves to allow the pressure tank and water heater to fill. I went around and cleaned sediment screens at the faucets and repaired one minor leak (the house has been vacant for about 18 months). I've been assured by the seller that the water will, indeed, run clear. At least, now, we can actually live in the house. We'll still cart water for drinking/cooking and do our laundry at the mother-in-law's house, but we're getting there!
    Thank you to all who gave me input on this and, especially, to Texas Wellman!
    Brian
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    So did you end up with the 110v version?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I sure did! I've lived on properties with wells in the past, but I've never had to pull a pump - let alone replace it. All the pumps I've dealt with, in the past, were 240v so I wasn't sure what to expect. This Grundfos does not require a control box and has a "soft start" feature that I was only able to detect when I had the well cap off and was flushing the well. So far, there's been no problem, at all, with water pressure and the pump seems easily able to keep up with demand. The pressure tank had little or no air pressure when I checked it (it's a big one. I suspect "true" capacity is around 75-85 gallons. I have a second one, left by the previous owner, which has never been hooked up. I'll be connecting that one in parallel with the first, so my little pump will start less frequently. All in all, I'm quite pleased, so far.
    jcheil wrote: »
    So did you end up with the 110v version?
  • jcheiljcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    Out There wrote: »
    I sure did! I've lived on properties with wells in the past, but I've never had to pull a pump - let alone replace it. All the pumps I've dealt with, in the past, were 240v so I wasn't sure what to expect. This Grundfos does not require a control box and has a "soft start" feature that I was only able to detect when I had the well cap off and was flushing the well. So far, there's been no problem, at all, with water pressure and the pump seems easily able to keep up with demand. The pressure tank had little or no air pressure when I checked it (it's a big one. I suspect "true" capacity is around 75-85 gallons. I have a second one, left by the previous owner, which has never been hooked up. I'll be connecting that one in parallel with the first, so my little pump will start less frequently. All in all, I'm quite pleased, so far.

    Thats great to hear, especially since you didn't have to mess with the whole 240v transformer stuff. One less thing to worry about breaking someday.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Exactly! I had always thought you either did 240v or you used a solar powered pump and pumped to a tank when the sun shone and used the water from there. I really didn't know there was a 110v option. This forum has already saved me some major headaches!
    Now…. does anyone have any secrets to help build "built-in" bookshelves quickly and cheaply AND to a standard which satisfies a wife's artistic bent while also satisfying a need to be functional and efficient? I'm really only kidding…. if she's cooking, I don't get to tell her how to do it or how to have it look when she's done. I think a reciprocal set of rules must apply to carpentry projects…. ah, but I deceive myself! :D
    jcheil wrote: »
    Thats great to hear, especially since you didn't have to mess with the whole 240v transformer stuff. One less thing to worry about breaking someday.
  • BB.BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 29,747 admin
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Watch out for the spousal project currency exchange market valuation... It appears that one build in bookcase project (or in my case, a library shed) is worth the same as taking the garbage out one night. It is the number of events, not the scope/effort of each individual event that matters.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Yup! You've got it! The two bits of leverage I have, in this case, are 1) I'm building it and 2) I'll be the primary user. She just wants it to "look nice". Oh brother!:confused:
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Very glad that you liked the pump. Keep us posted on how you like it once you start using water.
  • DaveBDaveB Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I'd like to do the same exact thing.. I have 240VAC well pump (66' deep well) and Outback VFX3648 inverter. I need to get the well pump onto it. Would like to get the same pump Out There got.. Where is best place to get this pump from? I've also never pulled a well pump. Is this something I could do? I've called multiple well drillers in the area and none seem too willing to help me put in a 120V pump for some reason.
  • DaveBDaveB Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I found the specs on my current pump and well. The current pump is a Sterite 10SP4C02J, 1/2hp, 230V. 42ft drop pipe, 10gpm. 4" casing to 56', 66' well depth. We may use up to 200 gallons per day (on farm with animals). I wasn't sure if the cheaper Grundfus SQ is adequate or the much more expensive SQ Flex is necessary?
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Not sure if this has been mentioned but ... when switching from a 240 VAC motor on your well pump to a 120 VAC motor the current goes up by about 2X. You must be sure that the wiring in place can handle this, both in terms of the current draw and the Voltage drop by the time it reaches the pump. Otherwise the new motor will receive low Voltage and draw more current, causing it to work harder and not last as long as it should. This is particularly important with a deep well where the distance to the pump motor from the surface can be more than 100'.
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    His 1/2 HP pulls about 4 amps. If he converts to a 1/2 HP 110V it will pull about 8 amps. Most pumps are set with #12 wire which can safely run a 1/2 HP 110V pump for about 160 ft from the service entrance.

    If you've already got the inverter there is not much reason to go with the SQ Flex. Go with the SQ 3" 110V that does not surge when it starts. Very inverter friendly.
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    His 1/2 HP pulls about 4 amps. If he converts to a 1/2 HP 110V it will pull about 8 amps. Most pumps are set with #12 wire which can safely run a 1/2 HP 110V pump for about 160 ft from the service entrance.

    Actually 8 Amps @ 120 VAC on 12 AWG over 160 feet hits a 3.5% Voltage drop. You would be better off using 10 AWG under those circumstances. The same wire using 4 Amps @ 240 VAC over the same distance results in a mere 0.90% V-drop. That is a huge difference and is exactly what I was warning about.
  • Out ThereOut There Solar Expert Posts: 96 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I got mine via internet from Supreme Water Sales in Florida. Absolutely best price on the net!
    DaveB wrote: »
    I'd like to do the same exact thing.. I have 240VAC well pump (66' deep well) and Outback VFX3648 inverter. I need to get the well pump onto it. Would like to get the same pump Out There got.. Where is best place to get this pump from? I've also never pulled a well pump. Is this something I could do? I've called multiple well drillers in the area and none seem too willing to help me put in a 120V pump for some reason.
  • DaveBDaveB Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    Actually 8 Amps @ 120 VAC on 12 AWG over 160 feet hits a 3.5% Voltage drop. You would be better off using 10 AWG under those circumstances. The same wire using 4 Amps @ 240 VAC over the same distance results in a mere 0.90% V-drop. That is a huge difference and is exactly what I was warning about.
    I did find the Grundfos 10SQ05-160, 10 GPM, 1/2 HP, 115 Volt only draws 4.1 amps. It has a soft start so 4.1 amps is the maximum draw. It also has under voltage protection. I'll have to see if I can figure out what the wire gauge to the well is.
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    I'm using the published information from Franklin electric and they even suggest that using the maximum length of the smallest wire gives the motor the effect of soft-starting due to the voltage drop.

    Google Franklin AIM Page 11.
    Actually 8 Amps @ 120 VAC on 12 AWG over 160 feet hits a 3.5% Voltage drop. You would be better off using 10 AWG under those circumstances. The same wire using 4 Amps @ 240 VAC over the same distance results in a mere 0.90% V-drop. That is a huge difference and is exactly what I was warning about.
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    Sounds like you accidentally looked at the 230V pump, the 110V pump should pull more amps.
    DaveB wrote: »
    I did find the Grundfos 10SQ05-160, 10 GPM, 1/2 HP, 115 Volt only draws 4.1 amps. It has a soft start so 4.1 amps is the maximum draw. It also has under voltage protection. I'll have to see if I can figure out what the wire gauge to the well is.
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question

    FYI here is the cable sizing chart for the Grundfos SQ, which differs significantly from the Franklin Chart.
  • DaveBDaveB Solar Expert Posts: 48 ✭✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    Sounds like you accidentally looked at the 230V pump, the 110V pump should pull more amps.
    That Supreme Water Sales then must be somewhat sloppy with their spec listings on their web page
  • CariboocootCariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    I'm using the published information from Franklin electric and they even suggest that using the maximum length of the smallest wire gives the motor the effect of soft-starting due to the voltage drop.

    Google Franklin AIM Page 11.

    Not a good idea if you're powering it off an inverter.
  • Texas WellmanTexas Wellman Solar Expert Posts: 153 ✭✭
    Re: 240 VAC Water Pump Question
    DaveB wrote: »
    That Supreme Water Sales then must be somewhat sloppy with their spec listings on their web page

    I agree. Looks like they just copied from the 220V pump. At the price they are selling them for I wouldn't complain.
    Not a good idea if you're powering it off an inverter.

    Why?
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