Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

bikerstyle
bikerstyle Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
Absolute Newbie to the solar power to 110 power for camping. I got lost reading posts in the forum and external links; My Ditz =) I "think" I have it figured out... but not sure and am double checking by posting here so input would be greatly appreciated.

I have 1 12V solar panel, connected to a controller (to prevent overcharging of a battery), the controller connected to one deep charge battery with a 2400W Inverter coming off of the battery with appropriate battery-to-inverter cables to provide myself with regular 110V electricity during dry camping. (My dry camping consists mainly of staying over during dog show weekends. I'd like my dog and I to be as comfy as possible and have light & internet from my conversion van & awning set up.) The inverter has 3 3-prong 110 plugs. Although I live in Arizona with plenty of sun available, I do travel to other states also.

My needs for electricity consist of basic weekend necessities of small coffee pot in the morning or I'm a real grouch <grin> plus maybe simple lights, computer, phone charge, etc ... maybe even a fan during the hot of the day... on an 'as needed' basis; not all at once necessarily although maybe lights, computer & cell phone charge might all be at once during evening relaxing hours.

Am I headed in the right direction with what I have and is what I have sufficient to meet my needs/desires? I have not tested my solar system yet; plan to this coming weekend to see if it all 'works' but would appreciate input from those experienced in these matters.

Thank you so much for your time in reading and hopefully letting me know if I've got this solar thangy figured out. =)

Silk
Bikerstyle +
owned by "Jack" the Ridgeback
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    Welcome to the forum.

    The only thing you're missing is hard numbers. The first of those is how much power in Watt hours you expect to need. A coffee pot, even a small one, can be a real bear for power use. The other things may seem small, but can add up to big Watt hours over time. You'd be amazed how long you can spend on the Internet, for example. :D

    This comes back to your battery, which we know is 12 Volt but don't know how many Amp hours it is.

    We don't know the specs on your solar panel, so we don't know how much battery it can "support".

    Your 2400 Watt inverter: is it MSW or pure sine? Do you have any numbers for its power consumption and conversion efficiency?

    Yes it is complicated and confusing. But it can be understood.
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  • bikerstyle
    bikerstyle Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #3
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    OK... for starters, went to get the 'stats' from the solar panel & the Inverter; hoping I'm giving the correct info below:

    Specs on the Solar Panel:
    A 12V Solar Panel generating 15 Watts per hour is equal to 1AMP of Current under ideal conditions.
    15W @ 15V = 1 Amp

    As for the Inverter... my mistake...1200W instead of 2400W...
    Per the box MSW.:
    Consumption: Continuous 1200W
    Surge Capacity: 2400W
    No load current draw 1.3 amperes
    Maximum Efficiency: Approx 90%
    Input voltage 10/5-15.5 volt DC
    Output Voltage 110/120 volt AC 60HZ
    Transistor Type: MOSFET

    12V Battery ~ buying Deep Charge from WalMart this coming week

    Is that the info you need to ell me if I'm on the right path? (Heading out to my van for the small coffee pot, fan, etc; lights I haven't bought yet but was thinking about getting RV type rope lights.)

    Silk
    "Jack" Mom
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  • bikerstyle
    bikerstyle Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #4
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    Coffee Pot: 800Watts 60Hz (small drip 2Cup maker)
    Fan: can't find info; box gone but would appreciate recommendation of largest fan to be used
    Lights: rope lights from Home Depot... no idea of need
    Laptop or computer... ???

    Silk
    "Jack" Mom
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    Bad news; that is a very small panel and it's not going to do anything for you.

    Look at it like this: if you could get 100% of the panel's output over five hours of sun that would be only 75 Watt hours.

    Now suppose your laptop, for example, uses 35 Watts. At that rate in 2 hours you'd be out of power.

    The 800 Watt coffee pot; how long does that run for? In 30 minutes it would use 400 Watt hours. In 15 minutes it would use 200 Watt hours. Never could the panel come close to supplying that.

    The inverter pulls 1.3 Amps, but the panel only produces 1 Amp.

    And that's the situation in a nutshell: the panel, after losses, has to be able to collect as much Watt hours in a day as you use (plus enough to compensate for those losses).

    You may want to invest in a bigger panel, a battery that can handle the loads you want to run, and possibly a better inverter.
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  • bikerstyle
    bikerstyle Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #6
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    Ok ~ I have a better understanding now; thank you. In an attempt to "use what I have" ~ would I be able to use the Solar Panel to charge up my vehicle battery and, with very limited use, utilize the van cigarette lighter attachment at least for a very limited amount of power?

    I SOOOO appreciate your time in responding. I will have to decide on which of your suggestions to follow. =)

    BikerStyle
    "Jack" Mom

    (coffee pot = only long enough to make a cup of coffee; but I can shortcut that necessity via a thermos and driving to the local quick stop the night before; was just hoping for fresh morning brew. =)
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    Likely your inverter, with out powering anything will use 30+ watts. Just to give you some perspective.

    I don't believe WalMart sells 'true' deep cycle batteries. I'd suggest waiting before you spend any money!

    I'd suggest, you might be better off, just buying 2 6v golf cart batteries (these tend to be the cheapest deep cycle battery, bang for the buck) and forget the solar panel. You don't really need a charge controller if you would like to leave it hooked into the batteries, so long as it has diode built in to prevent discharge over night.

    Find a place to mount them on your conversion van and wire them into a battery isolator and charge them from the van. They should have enough capacity to run a small fan (I like the O2cool), energy efficient lights and give you some computer time and morning coffee for a weekend. Charge them on the way out and on the way home and any day trips.

    Figuring you may not optimally charge the batteries, but in the long run this should work for you at a minimum of expense. I would hope the batteries would last you a couple years or so.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    "Limited" would be the key word. The amount that panel puts out is about enough to keep an auto battery up while not in use (compensate for self-discharge). It really will not provide much power.

    Your typical automotive battery is not suitable for deep cycling either, and recharging from the vehicle's alternator you'll find is really inefficient.

    I'm going to suggest you look into a small inverter-generator like a Honda EU2000i. It could supply 'big' power when running (like your coffee pot) and recharge a decent deep cycle for "quiet power" use at other times. It has the added advantage of always being available, unlike sunshine.

    Let me give an example of a "small" off-grid system:
    Two golf cart batteries supplying 220 Amp hours @ 12 Volts. This is roughly 1kW hour's worth of power at most. It would be better at half that.
    To recharge that completely from solar you'd want at least 385 Watts of panel. Quite a long way from 15 Watts, eh?
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  • bikerstyle
    bikerstyle Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭
    #9
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Let me give an example of a "small" off-grid system:
    Two golf cart batteries supplying 220 Amp hours @ 12 Volts. This is roughly 1kW hour's worth of power at most. It would be better at half that.
    To recharge that completely from solar you'd want at least 385 Watts of panel. Quite a long way from 15 Watts, eh?

    No kidding! (385 Watt panel v my puny 12Watt) =)

    Wish I could afford the Honda 2000i; have used them before, they are fantastic... but pricey =)

    No sure just what I'm going to do with this 12Volt Solar Panel, the 1200 Watt Inverter, etc. now. Thank goodness for this forum and YOUR answers especially or I would have been investing unnecessary $ into items for a system that would not perform as I need. Thank you, thank you! =)

    Bikerstyle Silk
    "Jack" Mom




    thank
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    Get ride of that MSW inverter, it's bad.
    its bad on power tools, stereo equipment, tv's, and induction. Any plethora of induction motors(I.E). Fans etc.
    Modified sine waves convert between 80% and 89% conversion efficient while pure sine waves operate from 90%~95% conversion efficient.
    So lets say you have an appliance you are trying to use, name plate rating would be 8.5~9amps @ 210~220v, this would be greater than equal to 1000watts.
    A PSW will start that appliance with no problems since the appliance requires a 60hz frequency, which offers the sine wave as should be discharging at a smooth operation for the watts that need to be delivered.
    A MSW inverter claims to operate within the "range" of 60hz, but since the wave form isn't smooth, and it whips back and forth aggressively modified operates in a range that bounces +\- 5hz (55~65hz).
    In short modified inverters require more power to operate appliances past the name plate rating, discharge batteries faster,than a true sine wave would per duty cycle. A typical pure sine wave that discharges a clean 1000 watts of power to operate a tool at its name plate, would typically take a 1200 watt modified sine wave inverter to to make that appliance operate and then there is still the issue that it is not a pure"clean" sine wave that appliance requires.
    For 12v applications it does disastrous damage to not only appliances, but as well the batteries because of the high level of discharging that is required.
    Modified sine wave inverters should be banned in my opinion, these solar generator companies selling these items on eBay should be revoked from selling junk like that to consumers.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #11
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    I am not sure I would go that far about MSW inverters...

    In general, their frequency should be pretty stable (much more stable than the typical AC generator).

    And, something like 80% of the appliances will work OK on an MSW inverter. And about 10% will have real problems--It just depends on what your loads are.

    There are some issues with lack of DC to AC isolation with most MSW inverters (you cannot do a Ground Bonded AC Neutral with most "cheap" MSW inverters). And some appliances "run noisy" on MSW inverters (the square wave output makes the "appliances" "buzz" more than a TSW inverter will).

    If you are in the middle of nowhere and need to run loads reliably, I do like TSW AC inverters... You don't want to plug in a cell phone charger, your laptop or TV, and have the power converter overheat.

    Some folks have used a smaller (and cheaper) TSW inverter for "critical loads", and a larger MSW for power tools, some pumping applications and such.

    Many people have used MSW inverters for years and are very happy with them... They just are aware of the limitations.

    All About Inverters
    Choosing an Inverter - Home Power Magazine

    Not everyone can afford to open their wallet for a high end TSW inverter. TSW are getting cheaper, but still not as cheap as a MSW inverter.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • marineadvection
    marineadvection Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #12
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    biker,
    msw-work for junk
    tsw or psw-work for money
    dont use the led homedepot lights they use over 50w and produce lowwww lumen. just get the smallest compact florescent u can find < 13w and get a 100w msw inverter for like 10-20$us then stick in cigarette lighter. will also charge small laptop or cell. pour you coffee old school, your camping and it taste better. then save up and do exactly what photowhit was describing and you will be solid and happy for 5+years with that. have fun!
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  • monoloco
    monoloco Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    You may want to consider getting a small one-burner propane stove to boil water for coffee.
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  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??
    monoloco wrote: »
    You may want to consider getting a small one-burner propane stove to boil water for coffee.
    Or if you are into solar a parabolic heat concentrator. Keeps water hot all day and most of the night.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??
    BB. wrote: »
    If you are in the middle of nowhere and need to run loads reliably, I do like TSW AC inverters... You don't want to plug in a cell phone charger, your laptop or TV, and have the power converter overheat.

    FWIW - I used MSW inverters to power my laptops for 8+ years, I had one screen inverter that went out, but it was near the end of the life of a used computer and I can't directly point at that as a cause. I'm NOT a casual user of laptops talking 4+ hours a day. 99%+ of the car inverters sold for use with laptops are MSW. I still use one when I'm on trips...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??
    monoloco wrote: »
    You may want to consider getting a small one-burner propane stove to boil water for coffee.

    A cat stove for the price of a can of cat food !

    http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
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  • zoneblue
    zoneblue Solar Expert Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Basic Camping Power via 12V Solar Panel + 2400W Inverter + Deep Charge 12V battery??

    The reality is that building a solar system to support your load demands which looks about roughly 500Wh/d youd need to spend about $1-2K, plus lug around about 100kgs of gear. The only real use your 10W panel is is keeping a vehicle battery in storage topped up. With immaculate conditions it could power a netbook computer for an hour a day. OR, power ONE 5W LED light for 4 hours.

    Heres some options:

    1. Upgrading to a fold out 80W panel might support nearer your needs if you reduce the worst items.

    2. Forget solar, if i get this right your needs are for 48hour chunks of time right? Buy a big enough battery to carry the projected loads over the weekend, and charge it up before and after the trips.

    3. Get a smaller additional 'house' battery, capable of storing 'basic' needs for a lighter weekend, ie lighting, cell phone charger, limited laptop use etc. Charge it from the vehicle alternator in such a way as its use will never flatten the starter battery. Get a small briefcase generator for occasional heavier weekends.

    HTH
    1.8kWp CSUN, 10kWh AGM, Midnite Classic 150, Outback VFX3024E,
    http://zoneblue.org/cms/page.php?view=off-grid-solar


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