Expanding existing system question?

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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #122
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    One thing with the Outback, everything is rampy, meaning when it makes the transition with the charger it ramps up the output. The Magnums and Xantrex both slam the built in chargers in and out and kill the generator output and fault it.

    I can confirm that 'rampy' soft start with the Outback. It is a great feature to have and allows me to use the eco-throttle on the honda. --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #123
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    There are a lot of work-arounds using the Honda EU2000. One is putting a putting remote control line on the ECO throttle switch. To be able to use the ECO throttle with a A/C that cycles you have to put a 5 second delay time on the load and a one shot timed switch closure of 10 sec on the throttle. That will give the generator time to ramp up for the start of load and then cut back. It's a great generator, but does have limitations, it just cannot anticipate what your going to throw at it.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #124
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Blackcherry04 wrote: »
    There are a lot of work-arounds using the Honda EU2000. One is putting a putting remote control line on the ECO throttle switch. To be able to use the ECO throttle with a A/C that cycles you have to put a 5 second delay time on the load and a one shot timed switch closure of 10 sec on the throttle. That will give the generator time to ramp up for the start of load and then cut back. It's a great generator, but does have limitations, it just cannot anticipate what your going to throw at it.

    There's another way, sort of. With the eco throttle on, I find that during bulk charge the generator is already ramped up enough to start loads that might otherwise bog it down. When a hard load switches on, the Outback is very good about cutting back the charger fast enough to handle the load. Of course, as charging tapers down during absorb, a hard load will then bog down the generator.

    My washing machine is such a hard start that the honda can barely handle it even with the eco-throttle off. I have described a way to run my washer with the eco throttle on: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=162022#post162022


    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #125
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    There's another way, sort of. With the eco throttle on, I find that during bulk charge the generator is already ramped up enough to start loads that might otherwise bog it down. When a hard load switches on, the Outback is very good about cutting back the charger fast enough to handle the load. Of course, as charging tapers down during absorb, a hard load will then bog down the generator.

    My washing machine is such a hard start that the honda can barely handle it even with the eco-throttle off. I have described a way to run my washer with the eco throttle on: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?p=162022#post162022


    --vtMaps
    Thats a good scheme on the washing machine. I did it that way some until I came up with the time relays, I figured it was less wear and tear on the control relays in the Inverter and replacement of a expensive board down the road, it's also automatic at 2:00 in the morning.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #126
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    The advantage with another string of batteries is it will solve this problem with loading, without having to run the generator. I find now that when the batteries are low in the morning, I can handle a 2000 watt load, but just barely, as voltage of the batteries drops below 23 volts, if they are down near 50% or slightly below. With another string, a 3000 watt load will be possible, which will solve the problem. Plus I will have more storage capacity to make it through the day, on heavy usage days in winter. Extra string of batteries will give me breathing space, but at a cost of course.

    I suspect my batteries are slightly sulphated, as I don't seem to have the storage capacity I should.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #127
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    The advantage with another string of batteries is it will solve this problem with loading, without having to run the generator. I find now that when the batteries are low in the morning, I can handle a 2000 watt load, but just barely, as voltage of the batteries drops below 23 volts, if they are down near 50% or slightly below. With another string, a 3000 watt load will be possible, which will solve the problem. Plus I will have more storage capacity to make it through the day, on heavy usage days in winter. Extra string of batteries will give me breathing space, but at a cost of course.

    To discharge 50% from your batteries, you need to draw 10kWh. How can that happen if you only consume 3kWh a day?
    northerner wrote: »
    I suspect my batteries are slightly sulphated, as I don't seem to have the storage capacity I should.

    Is your SG as high as it should be?
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #128
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    To discharge 50% from your batteries, you need to draw 10kWh. How can that happen if you only consume 3kWh a day?

    I was referring to days coming up in winter when consumption will be higher and power production less. I often see the problem on days when the battery isn't fully charged as well.
    Is your SG as high as it should be?

    I was able to get my SG up to about 1.250 on the last major EQ that I did. And it would not go any higher. Some of the cells in one string are even a bit less than that. Not good!
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #129
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    I was able to get my SG up to about 1.250 on the last major EQ that I did. And it would not go any higher. Some of the cells in one string are even a bit less than that. Not good!

    Do you have a DC clamp ammeter? See if the strings are getting the same current. If you don't have the meter, try EQing one string at a time.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #130
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Do you have a DC clamp ammeter? See if the strings are getting the same current. If you don't have the meter, try EQing one string at a time.

    --vtMaps

    I just checked and one bank is getting about 11 amps, the other about 13. When I did the EQ, I did one string at a time.
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #131
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    1. So feeding into the battery could be a way to mitigate that problem.
    2. I may look into using generator support with this inverter as well? Sounds like it may be possible?

    Why not use 2 and load shift [ to the genny ] like Chris does?

    IIRC your VFX inverter should be able to handle that dual power source sharing. At least give it a go , if it does, off to the races.... nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    ADD So your batts are not dead yet so the cost of Gen Support is gas only and W&Tear, vs a new bank that would be 2X (?) as big as what you have now?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #132
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    westbranch wrote: »
    Why not use 2 and load shift [ to the genny ] like Chris does?

    IIRC your VFX inverter should be able to handle that dual power source sharing. At least give it a go , if it does, off to the races.... nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    My findings this past spring were that the battery 50% state and below were constantly staring me in the face, when weather was unsettled. So my argument is that this problem will only get worse as the batteries age, and I will potentially get longer life out of the current set if I do add another bank. Plus I can make better use of storage when weather is good, meaning that there will be less generator run time.

    Remember too, that starting the generator may mean digging a pathway through the snow when temps can be around -20c and even down below -40c (temperatures without the wind chill). I'm figuring the less generator run time I have, the better things will be!
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #133
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    A VFX will not do gen support.

    Problem with adding more batteries without adding more panel is that it becomes harder to properly charge. Take away some light (i.e. Winter) and it gets worse, not better. So you end up charging your batteries via gen more often.

    You need to rethink this.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #134
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    A VFX will not do gen support.

    Problem with adding more batteries without adding more panel is that it becomes harder to properly charge. Take away some light (i.e. Winter) and it gets worse, not better. So you end up charging your batteries via gen more often.

    You need to rethink this.

    Many other off griders are running their batteries between 50 and 80 %, so not necessary to bring the batteries up to float every day. If you have more battery storage, it would take longer to charge the batteries, but you would not have to charge as often. Remember to that I'm doubling my solar capacity, so I will have an even better solar / battery storage ratio than I currently have.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #135
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    You've gotten some good advice here, if you have decided you know best, just do it and ignore the advice. Why burden us with answering you?

    On running your microwave, they come in smaller sizes. Mine draws a shade under 1000 watts and does everything I want/need.

    "Your 'under paneled' right now! with a 700ah 24 volt battery bank and a 1400 watt array, currently you have a maximum charge rate of around 56 amps or about 8%. Go ahead and add to your array and forget about adding to your battery bank, wait another 3-5 years when the battery bank needs replacing and then think about your capacity."
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #136
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Photowhit wrote: »
    You've gotten some good advice here, if you have decided you know best, just do it and ignore the advice. Why burden us with answering you?

    On running your microwave, they come in smaller sizes. Mine draws a shade under 1000 watts and does everything I want/need.

    "Your 'under paneled' right now! with a 700ah 24 volt battery bank and a 1400 watt array, currently you have a maximum charge rate of around 56 amps or about 8%. Go ahead and add to your array and forget about adding to your battery bank, wait another 3-5 years when the battery bank needs replacing and then think about your capacity."

    I appreciate all the expert advice. I have been debating this myself, and am looking at all the options and is why I brought it up. There is no best option, rather benefits and downfalls with each. In the end it comes down to both cost and performance both. I have over $18000 invested in my system now, and I expect a long term return on the investment and for it to perform well. If there are issues with load handling and battery state of charge, then I would like to address those.

    There are some real benefits to a larger battery bank size. These are better heavy load handling with less stress on the battery bank, more storage capacity (also the bank will discharge at a slower rate through usage), longer bank life due to lesser depth of discharge (for much of the time) and less generator run time. Also, in the event one or more batteries do fail, I will still be able to operate without any major inconvenience.

    The only major negative I can think of to increase bank size (slightly) is the expendable expense. That will be offset a bit with the slightly longer life expected out of the larger bank. Another minor negative is the addition of another parallel battery circuit, however, that can be dealt with through EQ's, one string at a time.

    Did I miss anything?
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #137
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    There are some real benefits to a larger battery bank size. These are better heavy load handling with less stress on the battery bank, more storage capacity (also the bank will discharge at a slower rate through usage), longer bank life due to lesser depth of discharge (for much of the time) and less generator run time.

    IMHO, the bank size has almost no influence on the generator run time. It might influence the number of generator starts.

    Doing absorption not only takes time, it takes energy. If you absorb once a week, your absorptions will be longer and take even more energy. My bank takes 5-6kWh of wasted energy to go through an absorption, and takes up to 6 hours. With your current bank, you might be able to do at least some of it with the sun. With bigger bank, generator is the only way. This may be 5 additional generator hours every week. If you absorb more often, that's even worse.

    Of course, if you need to handle big loads, you do need a bigger bank. I don't really have any heavy loads. However, with big loads, you may be better off with generator support, as Chris Olson does.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #138
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    IMHO, the bank size has almost no influence on the generator run time. It might influence the number of generator starts.

    I looked at all the generator run time I had in the past 6 months. No run was longer than 2 hours in order to boost the battery as it was down to about 50% or even less. With more storage, ie from sun on previous day(s), most of that generator run time would not have been necessary, so that is an example of both fewer generator starts and less generator run time. Of course, it will even be better with the doubling of the size of the solar array.
    Doing absorption not only takes time, it takes energy. If you absorb once a week, your absorptions will be longer and take even more energy. My bank takes 5-6kWh of wasted energy to go through an absorption, and takes up to 6 hours. With your current bank, you might be able to do at least some of it with the sun. With bigger bank, generator is the only way. This may be 5 additional generator hours every week. If you absorb more often, that's even worse.

    It's not totally wasted energy if you live in a cold environment, as much of that energy is converted to heat. :cool:
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #139
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    It's not totally wasted energy if you live in a cold environment, as much of that energy is converted to heat. :cool:

    Doesn't even compare with the heat that you can get from the generator :D
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #140
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Doesn't even compare with the heat that you can get from the generator :D

    I've been thinking about the possibility of harvesting generator heat.;)
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #141
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    I've been thinking about the possibility of harvesting generator heat.;)

    Don't do this: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15396
    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #142
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Don't do this: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?15396
    --vtMaps

    Definitely not. For the amount of generator run time, it wouldn't be worthwhile. Plus where I live, natural gas is dirt cheap, as there's plenty in the ground, all around this region. Plus there is alot of oil in the ground here as well. Shell is about to do a major expansion at the nearby refinery, which will more than double the oil they extract out of the ground (using steam injection for oil sands below the surface) There's plenty going on around here now!
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #143
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Do you have a DC clamp ammeter? See if the strings are getting the same current. If you don't have the meter, try EQing one string at a time.

    --vtMaps

    I just completed a full EQ today on my 8 Trojan L16HC's. The slightly older bank #1 dropped down to 28 amps current draw, and did not change beyond that at an EQ voltage of 31.2. The newer bank #2 dropped down to about 15 amps at the same EQ voltage. Bank #1 SG is about 1.260 and is going through more water than bank #2. Bank #2 SG was about 1.250.

    My assessment is that the batteries are slighly sulphated, but should give me years of life. Does the difference in current draw and water usage between the 2 banks sound unusual and is it something to be concerned about??? I am thinking it can be explained by the difference in age of about 1 year? I also noticed that there is a slight difference in voltage between individual batteries in each bank (within about 0.2 volts). After settling down, all the individual batteries are very close.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #144
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    I just ordered another 4 Trojan L16HC's which should be arriving here today. This will give me more potential use of my expanded solar array (ie more storage), and also help with load handling, a good choice I feel for my application, where winter loads are higher.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #145
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    I just ordered another 4 Trojan L16HC's which should be arriving here today.

    How did you manage to get them so fast? I had to wait almost 3 months for my batteries.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #146
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    How did you manage to get them so fast? I had to wait almost 3 months for my batteries.

    Through Magnacharge out of Edmonton. They do a scheduled delivery to the town I'm in every 2 weeks. And no extra delivery or freight charges. :D
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #147
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    I just finished installing another 6 panels up on the roof and wired them in yesterday. Not recommended doing this in -25C temperatures however!:cry: This will double my previous solar generation, and I will have more than enough power on sunny days in mid winter. The 2nd array is producing slightly less power than my original one.
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