Expanding existing system question?

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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #92
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You can use the big "inverter" breaker from your second MNDC for classic's output.

    Most modern chargers include "free" GFP. If not, I think you can also buy a DIN-rail mounted GFP breaker.

    I'll be using that breaker for a 2nd inverter, when I add that. I have 3 larger breakers (100 amp) for the classic's outputs. I only ordered 2 breakers, but they sent me 3.

    The GFP breaker I installed has one breaker in the center that trips if there is a current flow detected through to ground. It will in turn trip 2 other breakers (mounted on either side) that will disconnect up to 2 PV arrays from the system. I will have 2 PV arrays, so a GFP of that size required in my application. The entire unit takes up an entire breaker area on the MNDC as mentioned.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #93
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    The GFP breaker I installed has one breaker in the center that trips if there is a current flow detected through to ground. It will in turn trip 2 other breakers (mounted on either side) that will disconnect up to 2 PV arrays from the system. I will have 2 PV arrays, so a GFP of that size required in my application.

    Your Classic has a GFP built in, so what will be your second controller? I presume its not a Classic or you wouldn't be adding another GFP. (apologies if its already been mentioned in this thread).

    One thing I don't understand very well is how two GFPs interact with each other. If you have two GFPs it means that the fault current is divided between the two GFPs, and you need twice the current to trip them.

    Of course, the whole GFP thing is dangerous and ill advised, but that's another story that I don't want to get into in this thread. When the GFP trips, you have lost your DC negative bond to ground. When any system is ungrounded it is necessary to fuse both the pos and neg current carrying conductors. Thus a GFP would need two ganged breakers to interrupt the pos and neg from the array. With two arrays you would need the GFP to be ganged to four breakers to disconnect both pos and neg from each array.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #94
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Your Classic has a GFP built in, so what will be your second controller? I presume its not a Classic or you wouldn't be adding another GFP. (apologies if its already been mentioned in this thread).
    --vtMaps

    My apologies, as I didn't realize that the classic has built in GFP. Somehow I missed this. The diagram that midnite sends for the DC connections shows the external ground fault breaker, but obviously is a general guide for systems in general and not specific for the classic. Oh well, I have the external GFP now anyway!

    I have a 2nd classic that will be used for the 2nd array, after I get that installed.
    Of course, the whole GFP thing is dangerous and ill advised, but that's another story that I don't want to get into in this thread. When the GFP trips, you have lost your DC negative bond to ground. When any system is ungrounded it is necessary to fuse both the pos and neg current carrying conductors. Thus a GFP would need two ganged breakers to interrupt the pos and neg from the array. With two arrays you would need the GFP to be ganged to four breakers to disconnect both pos and neg from each array.

    Isn't that why they put in a resistor across the breaker? Or does that not help.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #95
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    ....DC connect box, according to the code requirement. ...

    I'm not familiar with the code in the "Great Frozen North" but NEC in the states is to have all your wiring in conduit. They make a shroud for the Outback inverter for this... Also once you cut the back out of a listed Electrical box, my guess is it's no longer considered a listed box.

    You might have been better served to use an E-Panel, I think they all have provisions for mounting a large breaker on either side of the box along with minimum of 3 panel mount breakers and 8 din rail breakers. Here's a photo of mine which has had the furniture re arranged or removed so it's pretty much a DC disconnect box, I will add an AC breaker on the second Din rail, but since I don't have any other source of AC I don't need the bus bars. I too, may add a second inverter, but likely I'll just use a 100 amp panel mount breaker for the time being, (1800 watt inverter)

    Sorry, can't upload right now, I'm giving up after 30 minutes! Also Classics have GFP built in, unless your inspector has an issue with them.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #96
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Photowhit wrote: »
    I'm not familiar with the code in the "Great Frozen North" but NEC in the states is to have all your wiring in conduit. They make a shroud for the Outback inverter for this... Also once you cut the back out of a listed Electrical box, my guess is it's no longer considered a listed box.

    I'm not dealing with any inspectors, but I am trying to build a safe system. We need more common sense and less regulations IMO.

    I was looking for flexible conduit, but it is hard to find here, unless you are willing to pay for at least 100 feet, and must be specially ordered. I will also put in my own shroud around the system eventually, but there aren't any kids or pets running around in the house.

    I looked at the E panel initially, but I shuddered at the cost. It would have stream lined the set up process however.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #97
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    I was looking for flexible conduit, but it is hard to find here, unless you are willing to pay for at least 100 feet, and must be specially ordered. I will also put in my own shroud around the system eventually, but there aren't any kids or pets running around in the house.

    You can buy plastic 1/2 or 3/4 flexible conduit in Home Depot (and also in either Lowe's or RONA) by meter.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #98
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    You can buy plastic 1/2 or 3/4 flexible conduit in Home Depot (and also in either Lowe's or RONA) by meter.

    Thanks for that NorthGuy! I could use the 3/4 between the CC and DC panel. I will likely need larger conduit for the the other cables. I'll likely be making a trip to GP soon and will check it out at Home Depot there.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #99
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    Oh well, I have the external GFP now anyway!
    <snip>
    Isn't that why they put in a resistor across the breaker? Or does that not help.

    Be sure NOT to use your external GFP... the more GFPs you have the less likely they are to do their job (because the fault current is divided across multiple breakers). That may actually be a good thing because GFPs can cause danger when they trip.

    The resister is to bleed off static charge when the GFP is tripped.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #100
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Be sure NOT to use your external GFP... the more GFPs you have the less likely they are to do their job (because the fault current is divided across multiple breakers). That may actually be a good thing because GFPs can cause danger when they trip.

    The resister is to bleed off static charge when the GFP is tripped.

    --vtMaps

    Either that or not use the GFP built into the classic. It can be disabled with a jumper.

    IMO, you would likely need a catastrophic failure with a good system install, in order to have a ground fault in the first place. So I would tend to think it will be unlikely to ever happen. The midnite classic has arc fault detection, which would give better protection from a problem with a solar panel, such as an intermittent short circuit in cells, would it not?
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #101
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    The midnite classic has arc fault detection, which would give better protection from a problem with a solar panel, such as an intermittent short circuit in cells, would it not?

    Not necessarily. The ideal place for arc fault protection is in the combiner box, it protects against both series and parallel arc faults. The arc fault protection in the Classic will not protect against parallel arc faults. btw, the Classic Lite does not have arc fault protection.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #102
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    Either that or not use the GFP built into the classic. It can be disabled with a jumper.

    The usual way to disable GFP is to short it out with a jumper. Is that how the Midnite jumper works? If so, don't do it... all of the GFPs are in parallel, so if you short out one you short them all. That may not be a bad thing, since GFPs probably introduce as much danger as they prevent.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #103
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    vtmaps wrote: »
    The usual way to disable GFP is to short it out with a jumper. Is that how the Midnite jumper works? If so, don't do it... all of the GFPs are in parallel, so if you short out one you short them all. That may not be a bad thing, since GFPs probably introduce as much danger as they prevent.

    --vtMaps

    If you have an external GFP, it's recommended by the folks from midnite to remove the GFP from the classic. This is done by taking out the jumper in the classic that connects battery negative with ground in series with the internal fuse.

    http://midniteforum.com/index.php?topic=55.0

    I'm not too concerned about the danger that a GFP may introduce if tripped. First of all, it would likely be a rare event for this to even happen in a properly installed system. In the event of a catastrophic failure, the GFP could prevent a fire from occurring. If a ground fault does in fact happen, everyone should be versed to stay clear of the system, and the problem dealt with.

    http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/DC%20Ground%20Fault%20Protectors%20explained.pdf
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #104
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    If you have an external GFP, it's recommended by the folks from midnite to remove the GFP from the classic. This is done by taking out the jumper in the classic that connects battery negative with ground.

    GFP usually works by detecting current between ground and battery negative. Say, you grab battery positive with your hand, thus completing the circuit [battery positive - you - ground - battery negative]. The GFP is installed between ground and battery negative and provides a bond during normal conditions. If you touch battery positive while standing on the ground, the circuit will be [battery positive - you - ground - GFP - battery negative]. The GFP system will detect current between ground and battery negative and take appropriate actions (such as removing bond between ground and battery negative, turning off equipment etc.)

    Now, if you have a jumper between negative and ground, the system will not work because current has an alternative route through the jumper. As vtMaps sayd, the ground to negative jumper will disable the system. BoB must've meant something else.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #105
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    GFP usually works by detecting current between ground and battery negative. Say, you grab battery positive with your hand, thus completing the circuit [battery positive - you - ground - battery negative]. The GFP is installed between ground and battery negative and provides a bond during normal conditions. If you touch battery positive while standing on the ground, the circuit will be [battery positive - you - ground - GFP - battery negative]. The GFP system will detect current between ground and battery negative and take appropriate actions (such as removing bond between ground and battery negative, turning off equipment etc.)

    Now, if you have a jumper between negative and ground, the system will not work because current has an alternative route through the jumper. As vtMaps sayd, the ground to negative jumper will disable the system. BoB must've meant something else.

    I realized that and investigated further. The jumper installed between ground and negative would disable all GFP's however. Somehow, I was thinking that the jumper was in series with the internal GFP fuse? I added the statement "in series with the internal GFP fuse" to clarify. If that jumper is removed it will disable the classic GFP, and still allow an external GFP to operate.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #106
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    I added the statement "in series with the internal GFP fuse" to clarify. If that jumper is removed it will disable the classic GFP, and still allow an external GFP to operate.

    I replied to the post before you made changes :D

    If it is in series then removing the jumper will completely disconnect GFP. You then need to remove them from all Classics.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #107
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    I survived the summer off the grid with no difficulty, with my current 1.4 kw array. I had a total of about 19 hours of generator run time since the beginning of April to supplement on cloudy stretches. I'm about to expand my system by adding another 6 solar panels, which will double my power generation. I had also planned on adding to my storage capacity, by adding one more string of 4 Trojan L16 (6v) batteries. I'm now debating whether to go ahead with that expansion? Winter will be more demanding with increased consumption due to the extreme cold weather, and solar generation will dwindle due to the short hours of sun light. Extra storage capacity will give me the added space to handle the increased consumption during this period. The downside is that I'm close to 2 years in with my current batteries, and they are an expendable item. Other thing to consider is that the battery capacity will decrease even more as they age.

    My current summer consumption is about 3.5 kwh per day. Winter consumption will see between 1.5 and 2 times that! I'm expecting significant generator run time for about 4 weeks on either side of the winter solstice, but otherwise shouldn't be too bad, as most winters here are see plenty of sun.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #108
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    My current summer consumption is about 3.5 kwh per day. Winter consumption will see between 1.5 and 2 times that! I'm expecting significant generator run time for about 4 weeks on either side of the winter solstice, but otherwise shouldn't be too bad, as most winters here are see plenty of sun.

    In Winter, sunny days are rare, far between, and very short. I have 6kW array and 12-14kWh/day. I will have to run a generator most evenings anyway. If I had twice as much battery capacity, I could've run generator once every two days, but for twice as long. That's the same from the energy viewpoint, but would be harder to pull this bigger bank through absorptions.

    If your situation is like this, you will not benefit from extra battery capacity.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #109
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    Your 'under paneled' right now! with a 700ah 24 volt battery bank and a 1400 watt array, currently you have a maximum charge rate of around 56 amps or about 8%. Go ahead and add to your array and forget about adding to your battery bank, wait another 3-5 years when the battery bank needs replacing and then think about your capacity.

    You could even keep the single midnite classic and let it limit the output to it's max. This should help charging on those overcast days.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #110
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    I too would suggest running with the smaller battery bank for now--And look at optimizing generator use/battery charging.

    If you have to buy the fuel anyway (number of days without adequate sun), paying attention to how you run the genset and your loads will probably save you more fuel...

    I.e., smaller genset running at 50% to ~80% of rated load to supply AC power + battery bank charging -- I.e., use the generator to supply power during periods of heavy power usage (evenings at home, cooking, doing home work, lights, computers, washing clothes, etc.)... Rather than the losses of a larger battery bank and AC power to battery charger to battery bank to AC inverter--That long way around AC power routing can cost you an extra 40% or more in conversion losses vs just running the loads direct from generator.

    I am not sure if the VFX can do "generator support"--But if you can configure it to do generator support or save for a second AC Inverter with generator support--That would allow you to use a small genset and have the inverter+battery support starting surges/periods of heavier loads with the inverter+battery bank carrying you through those times.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #111
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    BB. wrote: »
    I am not sure if the VFX can do "generator support"

    I have read that it can, but it is NOT a supported function. Sorry, I can't find a reference... somehow I think that boB or Robin mentioned that it could, either here or over at Midnite forum.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #112
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    VFX can't do gen support, GVFX can. It is an "unsupported" feature, evidently due to Outback's dissatisfaction with how well it works. I believe Blackcherry04 has verified that it does work.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #113
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Your 'under paneled' right now! with a 700ah 24 volt battery bank and a 1400 watt array, currently you have a maximum charge rate of around 56 amps or about 8%. Go ahead and add to your array and forget about adding to your battery bank, wait another 3-5 years when the battery bank needs replacing and then think about your capacity.

    You could even keep the single midnite classic and let it limit the output to it's max. This should help charging on those overcast days.

    I have the Trojan L16HC and are rated at 435 ah (20 hr rate) so I'm really under paneled right now! Sunny days in summer were no problem as mentioned, and I'm often floating by early afternoon (not literally by the way:p) That does sound like good advice to manage with the batteries I currently have.

    I haven't had a problem with starting surges so far anyway. My heaviest single load is the microwave oven which draws a full 1900 watts. I just make sure I don't turn on the microwave when another large load is being utilized. My biggest single user in winter will be the furnace fan. Generation will be relatively inexpensive as I will be running the gen set on natural gas, and ng here is cheap.

    I limit my generator output to 1600 watts, so if I have a load that exceeds that while charging the batteries, will the inverter handle it OK?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #114
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    You have almost identical equipment to mine: same inverter and gen.

    When there's AC present on the input of the VFX all loads shift to that. If the loads exceed the generator's 1600 Watt capacity the inverter will drop the gen and take the loads itself, then attempt to reconnect because of the power sensed on AC IN. This is usually seamless.

    If the demand is too high and sudden the gen will fault and there will be a definite blip in the power as the inverter takes over the load. At this point gen output is nil and the inverter will not try to reconnect.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #115
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    You have almost identical equipment to mine: same inverter and gen.

    When there's AC present on the input of the VFX all loads shift to that. If the loads exceed the generator's 1600 Watt capacity the inverter will drop the gen and take the loads itself, then attempt to reconnect because of the power sensed on AC IN. This is usually seamless.

    If the demand is too high and sudden the gen will fault and there will be a definite blip in the power as the inverter takes over the load. At this point gen output is nil and the inverter will not try to reconnect.

    I was thinking there may be a blip due to a sudden high loading. Thanks for that coot!
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #116
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    VFX can't do gen support, GVFX can. It is an "unsupported" feature, evidently due to Outback's dissatisfaction with how well it works. I believe Blackcherry04 has verified that it does work.

    Another method to support loads and charge the battery at the same time would be to rectify the generator o/p and feed it to the charge controller. Not as efficient, but it could help with load issues when the battery is low. Is this method every practiced? I think with proper power management, it would not be necessary for the most part.
    You could even keep the single midnite classic and let it limit the output to it's max. This should help charging on those overcast days.

    I already have a 2nd midnite controller in place ready to roll, Photowit.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #117
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    Another method to support loads and charge the battery at the same time would be to rectify the generator o/p and feed it to the charge controller. Not as efficient, but it could help with load issues when the battery is low. Is this method every practiced? I think with proper power management, it would not be necessary for the most part.

    Some use a battery charger power by the gen, but getting the AC "clean" enough for feeding a charge controller (particularly MPPT type) could be a problem. In theory a MidNite Classic 200 could take the 120 Volts 'directly' if rectified. So far no one has risk trying this that I know of.

    There would of course be a Wattage limit this way based on the particular controller's maximum output @ the charge Voltage. And of course loads would be limited to the maximum the inverter can handle (unlike with gen support which allows the loads to be roughly the sum of inverter + gen capacity).
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #118
    Re: Expanding existing system question?

    Small Scale

    So far the GFX 1320 has been flawless with Gen Support. It's the second Inverter in my system, it runs the refrigerator, a 5000 btu a/c and kitchen outlets. I have the charger limited to 5 amps and the ACin breaker set to 7 amps.

    Let's say the a/c in on ( 500 watts ), if you start the coffee maker ( 1,000 ) watts. The gen support will start to contribute to the loads. As soon as the the coffee is done Gen Support drops out the charger will start right back. The reason I have the ACin low and the charger is the Honda EU2000 will stay at idle on the ECO throttle, little noise and fuel use. I use to think to run a generator was big power and fast, now I see the generator as the sun, longer run and slow.

    Even though this is a GFX, ( 1320 watts @ $900 12, 24 & 48 V ) there is no reason that a GTFX, GVFX ( 3,500 watts @ $1,900 ) couldn't do the same and others have validated that they will.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #119
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    Another method to support loads and charge the battery at the same time would be to rectify the generator o/p and feed it to the charge controller. Not as efficient, but it could help with load issues when the battery is low. Is this method every practiced? I think with proper power management, it would not be necessary for the most part.

    I thought about that because I didn't quite like the way XW regulates charge current. Because of the XW regulation, generator goes slightly less loaded tha I want, but this does use less fuel and possibly increases generator's life, so it even may be beneficial.

    To the contrary, with DC you cannot pass AC to the loads. The loss from AC->DC->AC is big. When AC goes directly to loads, I manage to slip 3-4 kWh directly to the loads during battery charging. I wouldn't be able to do that with DC generator.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #120
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Some use a battery charger power by the gen, but getting the AC "clean" enough for feeding a charge controller (particularly MPPT type) could be a problem. In theory a MidNite Classic 200 could take the 120 Volts 'directly' if rectified. So far no one has risk trying this that I know of.

    There would of course be a Wattage limit this way based on the particular controller's maximum output @ the charge Voltage. And of course loads would be limited to the maximum the inverter can handle (unlike with gen support which allows the loads to be roughly the sum of inverter + gen capacity).

    If I do run into a problem with load handling, it won't be because the inverter can't handle the loads, but because the battery capacity (with current setup) won't support it. So feeding into the battery could be a way to mitigate that problem. Sounds like it may be better to bring up the battery state, if low, and practice load management, to prevent overloading the batteries. I may look into using generator support with this inverter as well? Sounds like it may be possible?
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #121
    Re: Expanding existing system question?
    northerner wrote: »
    If I do run into a problem with load handling, it won't be because the inverter can't handle the loads, but because the battery capacity (with current setup) won't support it. So feeding into the battery could be a way to mitigate that problem. Sounds like it may be better to bring up the battery state, if low, and practice load management, to prevent overloading the batteries. I may look into using generator support with this inverter as well? Sounds like it may be possible?
    If you contact Outback tech support they can tell you what has to be changed in the VFX so it'll do Generator Support, I think it's just the control board. On their forum there are folks that have done it.

    There is really nothing wrong with a stand alone charger, you lose a little with conversion. One thing with the Outback, everything is rampy, meaning when it makes the transition with the charger it ramps up the output. The Magnums and Xantrex both slam the built in chargers in and out and kill the generator output and fault it. The Magnum would over shoot the set output and double it, then cut back. To make the ECO throttle useful it has to have time to react to certain loads.
    .
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