Battery emergency

zozomike · July 2013

4 days ago I installed a GB Industrial 510 AH ( at 6 hours) 24 volt battery. I used a 15kw generator through the VFX3524 to boost it up to 100% charge so the trimetrec would show amount of charge Specific gravity was low so I thought I had a problem with my specific gravity tester, so it was 4 days till I could get a new one, and now I see it confirmed the first tester, The battery is at 1.150 an voltage at 24.9 The inverter shows fair as charge level, and the trimetric ( which was programmed for the new batt) shows 104% as state of charge. When I try to run the generator now the inverter shows an error light ( which it did not do before)
I am confused

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Do you have a MATE for your VFX? You definitely need it. In fact you may have to work around the inverter entirely, as the battery may be too low for it to function properly (although at 24.9 it should work).

Ignore the Trimetric; it is confused based on incorrect programming (told battery was at 100% when it wasn't).

Disconnect the battery from the inverter. Then reconnect it.

Check the charge parameters on the VFX. Limit the charge current to 10 Amps (this is AC - that's approximately 50 Amps DC). Set the AC IN max current to a number higher than this, like 20 Amps. Try charging again.

What error light is showing up?

Do you have any solar charging ability?

I don't hold much hope for those batteries as 1.150 is really dead.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Thanks I will try those things now, I will order a mate later.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

Thanks I will try those things now, I will order a mate later.

See, that's a problem; without the MATE the VFX is programmed to default settings and they can be quite wrong for your batteries and generator.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

I guess that is so about the mate, I ran several years on the other bank without it, confusingly the inverter now shows full charge on the battery, ( green light). The reset of the inverter, ( disconnect) cured the error light that was showing up when using the generator-- the ac input light is steady at least for now. Yes I have 2000 watts of solar and have been charging every day since installation, right now it is minimal as we have heavy overcast this afternoon.
To confirm though, the solar through the mx80 should also be charging the battery at the same time as the inverter is charging from ac generator input right?
The trimetric was programed at P1 28.6 P2 10 and P3 510. this is based on the 6 hour rate given by GB. I did try programming at the 20 hour rate, ( 16 and 804 ) and received even wilder state of charge readings.
Thanks for your quick ideas,

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

To confirm though, the solar through the mx80 should also be charging the battery at the same time as the inverter is charging from ac generator input right?

Yes, and this can also cause problems if both charge sources are putting out their maximum at the same time: too much current to the battery. Really it's meant to be either solar or gen but not both.

The trimetric was programed at P1 28.6 P2 10 and P3 510. this is based on the 6 hour rate given by GB. I did try programming at the 20 hour rate, ( 16 and 804 ) and received even wilder state of charge readings.

The problem here is that it is meant to start out with fully charged batteries, and yours weren't. So if you tell it "100%" when the batteries are at less than that you get the Trimetric reading the batteries as >100% SOC. When you get the batteries fully charged for real (good SG reading) redo the battery monitor programming. From that point on it should work properly.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

I see, I programed the Trimetric when the new batt was low, ( evidently as shipped) I did run the generator for an hour or so at that time, and the trimetric began to show 100% but later began to show 107--150% etc,
have been running the generator for about an hour now, no prob overcharging as we are only receiving like 90 watts now solar due to overcast but I will monitor that.
Thanks for that advice.
I just hope I can get the battery sg up, kinda scared.

BB. · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

The 24.9 volts... Is that resting voltage (after a few hours of no charge/no discharging at ~77F/25C)?

You need to measure the battery bank voltage during charging and make sure that it is getting voltage/current. You should be at ~28-29 volts during the last 20% of the charging (80% or higher State of Charge) and holding that for a few hours.

If you are only getting 24.9 volts when charging--Something is not working right (voltage limiting, not enough charging current, parallel batteries with one bank having a shorted cell, etc.).

I really like to suggest an inexpensive DC Current Clamp DMM (something like this on from Sears will work OK). You need to be able to independently measure voltage and current at various points in the system--And a DC current clamp is so much easier/safer than any other current measurement method. (note, the Sears meter is a bit strange on how to zero the DC amps reading--Ask if it does not make sense to you).

The Trimetric almost sounds like it is not seeing the battery voltage get high enough, or the charging voltage is not correctly programmed in the Trimetric. It should reset to 100% when the voltage and time meet the programmed parameters (sorry, I do not have a battery monitor, so I cannot tell you how to program it correctly--other than just reading the manual--which can be confusing for the TriMetric).

-Bill

Photowhit · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Hi Zozo,

I have this same battery, though mine came fully charged, might have been that I asked them to put flags on it instead of cables, so I likely got a new battery this is a common forklift size.

In general, when you get a new battery, you want to fully charge and take SG readings and record them for each cell. I once was common to also do an equalizing charge before commissioning the battery(put it on line). Either way I would want to see a fully charged battery before you start using it. I would also add the Trimetric and use the 20 hour rate so we can all compare apples in case you have problems/issues. You understand that you have a very minimal array for this battery, so likely you will need supplemental charging if your using it more than minimally, though you are in new Mexico where you normally have good sun.

Just to be sure we are comparing apples, you did get the standard flooded forklift/traction battery rather than their renewable energy battery?(which might have lower SG)

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Thanks Guys. Just the fact that so many of you try to offer advice is a true blessing. This is the 12-085-13-133-b, 24 volt, 20 hour is rated 804. ( an the trimetric is set for that now) This replaced a 675 AH crown bank that was damaged by a controller failure while I was out of state. In the three days since hookup I have received AH- 223, 299,239. Usage has varied as I am in the process of building the main house, small tools only lately. I chose this batt cause every calculation tool I could use told me I should be in that range for the occasional 3 snowy days we get in winter. . I have been running the PTO 15 kw generator 9 hours so far and I am at SG 1.255? Voltage 28.8 I can only pray for magic 1.285+ but my 1954 NAA has been humming like a top.
On installation I was confused by the state of charge readings given by the inverter, ( green to yellow lights) and the trimetric. I stupidly chose to trust them rather than the little SG tester I had, then was shocked when I bought another and got the same dismal SG readings.
I was not aware that I had was low on the array, but everything about living off grid seems to be natures way of telling you you do not make enough money or have enough education.
Now a Mate and more panels and another controller?

BB. · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Get back to the basics... Figure out how many AH per day you usually use. Size the panels for the bank and the daily usage (typically 9 months of the year without generator, other ~3 make up the bad weather/poor sun with genset).

So--My assumptions... 24 volt battery bank with 804 AH battery bank. Assume 2 days and 50% maximum discharge:

804 AH * 1/2 day of sun * 0.50 max discharge = 201 AH per day average load

A good starting point for charging a battery bank is a 5% - 13% rate of charge with solar:

804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.05 rate of charge = 1,514 watt array minimum
804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.10 rate of charge = 3,028 watt array nominal
804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller deratings * 0.13 rate of charge = 3,936 watt array "cost effective maximum"

Next, based on using PV Watts for Albuquerque New Mexico, fixed array tilted to latitude facing south:

Month    Solar Radiation (kWh/m 2/day)
1      5.33     
2      6.06     
3      6.44     
4      7.16     
5      7.40     
6      7.10     
7      7.13     
8      7.02     
9      6.71     
10      6.55     
11      5.73     
12      5.14     
Year      6.48

Tossing the bottom three months, get 6.06 hours of sun (February) as the "break even" month:

201 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller losses * 1/6.06 hours of sun = 1,249 watt array minimum

So, somewhere between 1,514 to 3,936 watt array should be a good fit (based on my guess work).

A 15 kW genset is huge with respect to this battery bank... A more reasonable size (assuming 5% to 13% or even ~20-25% with thermal management (high charging currents can give you hot batteries, use remote battery temp sense for >~13% rate of charge). Using "typical" AC charger and generator ratings:

804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 AC charger eff * 1/0.67 PF charger * 1/0.75 max generator VA rating * 0.05 rate of charge = 2,900 VA genset
804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 AC charger eff * 1/0.67 PF charger * 1/0.75 max generator VA rating * 0.10 rate of charge = 5,800 VA
804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 AC charger eff * 1/0.67 PF charger * 1/0.75 max generator VA rating * 0.13 rate of charge = 7,540 VA
804 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.80 AC charger eff * 1/0.67 PF charger * 1/0.75 max generator VA rating * 0.20 rate of charge =11,600 VA
804 AH * 0.05 rate of charge = 40 amp charger
804 AH * 0.10 rate of charge = 80 amp charger
804 AH * 0.13 rate of charge = 105 amp charger
804 AH * 0.20 rate of charge = 160 amp charger

Depending on how much charging current you wish to dump into the battery bank... 10-13%+ is great for fast charging. 5% is all you need if you are trying to get the last 10-20 charge (and equalization).

You should try for >90% state of charge several times a week to up to every ~10 days (different theories about cycling/recharging battery bank for long life--cycling battery between 50% and 80% normally, and >90% every week to 10 days is more efficient and possibly better for battery bank--deep cycle flooded cell).

Note with charging, the battery bank will probably take >10% rate of charge below ~80% state of charge and <5% over 90% state of charge--and down to 1% to 0.1% when 100% full...

So, keeping a watch on both the battery voltage and current will tell you when it is full. Some industrial batteries may work better with ~30-32 volt as the charging voltage (some Surrette traction batteries???)--Check with the vendor for their recommendation.

And watch for other signs. Water usage--If you are having to add water every ~2 months... Probably OK on charging. If you never need to add water, may need more charging voltage/current. If you have to add water every month, cut back a bit on voltage/absorb time. And you may need different absorb times for winter (longer absorb times) vs summer (shorter times).

-Bill

Photowhit · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

... This is the 12-085-13-133-b, 24 volt,

These just describe your battery it has 12 cells, 085 Amp hour per plate 100 hour rate, 13 negative plates, 133 is the case number, b is the case style with or with out lid. So this doesn't tell us if you have gotten one for renewable energy use. Likely you would have had to ask and it would have cost more, but I do not know. I didn't even know they made batteries for renewable energy until after I had purchased mine and I made it very clear what my use was going to be!

zozomike wrote: »

... In the three days since hookup I have received AH- 223, 299,239. Usage has varied as I am in the process of building the main house, small tools only lately. I chose this batt cause every calculation tool I could use told me I should be in that range for the occasional 3 snowy days we get in winter. . I have been running the PTO 15 kw generator 9 hours so far and I am at SG 1.255? Voltage 28.8 I can only pray for magic 1.285+ but my 1954 NAA has been humming like a top.

This is a robust battery, likely you will be fine, just keep charging it. I take it your charging through the inverter? Unlike some other batteries, Trojan, these REQUIRE equalizing, at least every 30 days. If the voltage is getting to the absorb stage, you might go ahead and ask the charger to equalize the battery. This will help 'clean' the plates and equalize the cells SG readings.

zozomike wrote: »

... On installation I was confused by the state of charge readings given by the inverter, ( green to yellow lights) and the trimetric. I stupidly chose to trust them rather than the little SG tester I had, then was shocked when I bought another and got the same dismal SG readings.

What's done is done, I suspect you'll be OK and this will just be a good story in the future, when your helping someone with a new forklift battery on the forum!

zozomike wrote: »

... I was not aware that I had was low on the array, ...//... Now a Mate and more panels and another controller?

I won't say you need more panels, but others here would. 2000 watt array represents perhaps 60 amp charging into a 800 Ah battery or about 7.5 % but you do, generally, have a lot of sun. What has been your peak charging rate in the heat? My bet is your seeing less than this in the heat, as panels heat up the voltage drops further reducing the output. I saw Bill used 29volts when calculating the charge current, I used 25 which is a bit low, once you hit your target voltage the charge controller holds the voltage and the battery slowly reduces the amount of current/amps it accepts. AT 29 volts I would expect around 50 amps charging current(after accounting for NOCT values and charger inefficiencies) and likely a bit less.

FWIW - I have a 4000 watt array(pretty much the max for charging this battery) and will add 2.5Kw more to run opportunity loads. I can't live with out air conditioning, OK I can, but I wouldn't be comfortable. I'll dial back the charging current and use Midnite's relay trigger to start the A/C once the battery nears full.

Once you get your battery back to a full charge I would stay on top of it and check the SOC regularly. I guess you know now a bit more about the Trimetric and will install it once the battery is fully recharged. Then keep an eye on it for the first couple months to be sure it is giving you correct information.

NorthGuy · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

Thanks Guys. Just the fact that so many of you try to offer advice is a true blessing. This is the 12-085-13-133-b, 24 volt, 20 hour is rated 804. ( an the trimetric is set for that now) This replaced a 675 AH crown bank that was damaged by a controller failure while I was out of state. In the three days since hookup I have received AH- 223, 299,239. Usage has varied as I am in the process of building the main house, small tools only lately. I chose this batt cause every calculation tool I could use told me I should be in that range for the occasional 3 snowy days we get in winter. . I have been running the PTO 15 kw generator 9 hours so far and I am at SG 1.255? Voltage 28.8 I can only pray for magic 1.285+ but my 1954 NAA has been humming like a top.
On installation I was confused by the state of charge readings given by the inverter, ( green to yellow lights) and the trimetric. I stupidly chose to trust them rather than the little SG tester I had, then was shocked when I bought another and got the same dismal SG readings.
I was not aware that I had was low on the array, but everything about living off grid seems to be natures way of telling you you do not make enough money or have enough education.
Now a Mate and more panels and another controller?

Have you tried equalization? The batteries that I have are not forklift batteries, but many people here suggested that they really are forklift batteries, but in an RE case.

If your SG was chronically low for a long time, a sulphation may have started to affect batteries, which keeps SG low. To "heal" the batteries you do an equalization - controlled overchare.

To bring SG to where it should be, I tried equalizing at 31V (62V actually because I have 48V bank, but I'll devide everything by 2 for you), which was a manufacturer recommended voltage, for as long as 20 hours without success. SG didn't raise to the specs. But 10 hours at 32V did it. My batteries require higher voltage for everything, so 32V may be too high, but 28.8V that you're doing is probably too low for equalization. I would try 31V.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Thanks for that info. Sometimes I can't believe the time and effort you guys put into this help. My 12 Solar world 165s rate at 1980, They are faced true south at 45%, the new installation will allow for angle adjustment. As we are now in our "monsoon season" around 1400w is the maximum I am seeing, and of course nearly nothing in the rain! Heat is not normally an issue here as we are at 7500 feet, low 90s is about all we ever see, and at 9 am late July we were at 60 degrees f. I had planned to add to the array when I finish the house, ( almost dried in) but may have to move faster on that since I'm moving pretty slow on the house. I do have a spare MX 60 in the shop, but will have to study on that situation a bit to understand what to do. Sounds like I want to add around 1000 watts of array to bring me into the mid range you suggest for the battery, which is not specified as " RE"
Yes the 15kw generator is huge, it is a Blue Max PTO, I went to that size for other power issues around the place as it hooks to the threepoint and can go anywhere. All charging is through the VFX3524 however, nothing direct. When I get the Mate I will try to understand the programming to get the best fit.
Thanks again....

Photowhit · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

My bet is the SG will go up, mine, now 2 years old, is in line with other flooded lead acid batteries. I actually haven't check the SG since I moved the battery Memorial day weekend, I'll put it on my todo list!

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

I hope your bet is right, I am at 1.275 this evening. I need the Mate previously mentioned in order to configure the inverter charge parameters to the battery( I hope but have no idea what that is) . As I approach a proper SG the inverter decides to stop charging, ( red error light, no load at Gen) so I switch to solar in equalization mode, then inexplicably a few hours later when reconnected to the generator the inverter will connect, ( with solar switched off) an will charge fine.
So many mysteries and so little time. But I know if you keep pulling the burrs from under the saddle-- in time you will have a smooth ride.

Photowhit · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

...So many mysteries and so little time. But I know if you keep pulling the burrs from under the saddle-- in time you will have a smooth ride.

...about that time, my horse usually goes lame, but I hope you'll have better results. Looks like your on your way! If your at 1.275 and even across they cells, likely your in good shape.

vtmaps · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

As I approach a proper SG the inverter decides to stop charging, ( red error light, no load at Gen) so I switch to solar in equalization mode, then inexplicably a few hours later when reconnected to the generator the inverter will connect, ( with solar switched off) an will charge fine.

The red error light doesn't sound good. When you have the Mate you will be able to read the error code. --vtMaps

wrdaigle · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

I have a very similar system. Same battery, same inverter, an mx60, and less solar, and my batteries see pretty happy and healthy now. There is a learning curve with these batteries, but they are quite robust and forgiving. My batteries were full when I got them. I set the charger the absorb for 2 hours at 28.8 and kinda forgot about them. 2 months later my sgs were too low. I also went into panic mode and started adjusting settings. I now have absorb set at 29.6. I hold this for 3 hours in summer and 4 hours in winter and I do a monthly equalize at 32. Since I'm on the small end for solar and I have small generator,I run the generator during the day to help me get through bulk, then let the solar finish the job. On equalize days, I use the generator the to get through bulk, then use solar to get through absorb and a few hours of equalize. If you're up to 1.275, it sounds like you're in the zone. Keep watching you're specific gravities. Don't worry too much about over charging. I monitor battery temp during equalize. I haven't seen mine go above 90f.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Thanks that is comforting, sounds like we do have a very similar system. I've got the mate on order and will start adjusting settings when received. I have not adjusted the MX 80 yet, still on default, but have used the generator to get to the 1.275, ( that took 10 hours) I let the solar charge alone the last two days ( overcast) and the sg is 1.250 and not perfectly equal in all cells. So back to the generator. Do you use only the VFX3524 for charging when running the generator?

1980 W solar, Outback MX 80 and VFX 3524, Trimetric monitor, GB battery 12-085-13, 15kw PTO generator behind a 1954 Ford NAA

westbranch · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

It sounds like you need to set the MX to what you want to take advantage of whatever Solar you might be able to get, when it arrives.
Do you have the values you need to input to the MX yet?
Since you are presently at a low SG you may benefit from a higher and longer Absorb setting to get you to the correct SG as well as with an EQ or 3 asap

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Thanks I do not have those values, and I find nothing on the GB Industrial site. So until I know better the MX80 is set at Absorb 28.8v, Float 27.2v, and have Equalize set at 31v, The MX has been on equalize for 2 days and not reached the set point. Re my prior post that I was seeing an error light with the AC input, I think that was just a frequency error, probably had the RPM too high on the old tractor, turns out the frequency increases with rpm and the replacement Tach is on order also, trying to hit 1500 exactly by ear is dicy.

By the way, how do you guys get your system info to show up as signature each time? I have not even been able to figure that one out

BB. · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Upper right is the "Settings" link. Click and find the Edit Signature link on lower left... Or click this link:

http://forum.solar-electric.com/profile.php?do=editsignature

After you have setup your signature, Edit and go to Advanced edit and find the enable signature box (or your next post, go Advanced Edit and enable signature). After you enable once, all of your new posts should have a signature too.

I have put a place holder in there, and enabled it on your last post so you can see it.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

zozomike wrote: »

Thanks I do not have those values, and I find nothing on the GB Industrial site. So until I know better the MX80 is set at Absorb 28.8v, Float 27.2v, and have Equalize set at 31v, The MX has been on equalize for 2 days and not reached the set point. Re my prior post that I was seeing an error light with the AC input, I think that was just a frequency error, probably had the RPM too high on the old tractor, turns out the frequency increases with rpm and the replacement Tach is on order also, trying to hit 1500 exactly by ear is dicy.

Before you can equalize a battery it needs to be fully charged. Yours aren't reaching that goal yet. The next question would be how have you got the Absorb Maximum Time configured? The default is something like 2 hours, and in your case it would not hurt to extend that to 4.

By the way, how do you guys get your system info to show up as signature each time? I have not even been able to figure that one out

Click on "Private Messages". There's a box on the left side that says "My Settings". Under the section that's headed "My Profile" is a link titled "Edit Signature". That's where you can put in your system specs so they show up on every post.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Thanks, that signature should save some time. we will see if I did it correctly.
I reset the absorb time to 3 hours. I thought the default was 2 hours but found it to be set on one hour. Thanks for making me do that.

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Opps, I meant to say I set the absorber at 4 hours per your suggestion.

Cariboocoot · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

One hour would definitely be too short. In a case like that the Absorb timer will run up for however long the Bulk stage takes, but when it reaches Absorb it will go to Float after 1 hour - even though the timer has longer on it. As such the batteries never get a full Absorb cycle.

westbranch · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

here is a link you might find helpful

http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?14071-Battery-Condition

Photowhit · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Some Charge controller will 'time out' on equalizing. They will only try for a set period of time like 48 hours. With your minimal array I wouldn't worry too much, but it's nice to have a battery temperature sensor setup when doing equalizing, particularly if they are in un controlled environment.

wrdaigle · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

GB industrial was no helpful when it came to setting up my charging settings. I think the only thing they provided was a couple of SOC@ specific gravity values. I used the numbers these number and compared them to the figures provided by other traction battery companies. I have a graph that I graph that I put together somewhere, but I can't seem to find it. as it turns out, the GB industrials numbers come out very similar to HUP Solar One. Thankfully, HUP Solar One does have a pretty comprehensive manual with their batteries that I found very helpful.

http://www.firemountainsolar.com/wp-content/themes/fms/pdf/HuP-Solar-One-Manual.pdf

zozomike · July 2013

Re: Battery emergency

Wow better manual for sure, guess one does get something for the money with HUP. Thanks, more to learn.. Still have not been able to get above 1.275, but I'm just going to keep charging and stop worring, maybe when the mate arrives I can program the inverter for a more complete charge. As to the temp, I think I'm ok so far, If I can add 1000 W to the array I will get the RTS. Designing a new location installation for the array now which will also receive reflection from a 40x60 pond helping the gain a bit. Planning to make a series of frames from 1" schedule 40 galvanized, that has worked very well at the well, this time want to make them angle adjustable. Any threads here that have good ideas in mounting? I did a search but found little.

Battery emergency

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