Schneider new inverter

Dapdan
Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
in Solar Product Reviews & Opinions #1
To all,

Have anyone tried the new Schneider invererter as yet. It is called the Conext SW4024. It comes only in 24v and has a split phase and 230v version at two different output power models. It seems a good design and better yet a very good price point ranging between $1200 and $2000. It seems to be targeting the medium sized set up and Magnum, outback and apollo better take notice.

Here is the link to it:

http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=84697080&p_File_Name=Conext-SW-Sell-Sheet.pdf

Cheers...
Damani
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Comments

  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    Well, that looks interesting. Too bad it's only up to 24v. I wonder what it's target market is? Making it 50/60hz switchable certainly opens it to worldwide applications. My SE4048 is approaching 10yrs old, so replacement can't be too far off.

    Ralph
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #3
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    Dapdan wrote: »
    Have anyone tried the new Schneider invererter as yet. It is called the Conext SW4024.

    I saw one at the place where we bought our XW inverter, along with the AC conduit box and DC box for it. It wasn't installed yet but they had it on the bench pre-wiring some breakers in it, getting it ready for an install. No experience directly with it, but looking it over gave me the impression that it's a pretty nice unit. It works with the same SCP or Auto Gen Start that the XW uses, and looks like it's designed to be a smaller, lighter-duty version of the XW, with only one AC input.
    --
    Chris
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  • mtdoc
    mtdoc Solar Expert Posts: 600 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    Interesting. It looks like they're designed to be a direct challenge to Outback VFX, GVFX inverter/chargers. Same sizing, stackability with separate control/communication unit, etc with the advantage of split phase output in a single unit. Similar price point.

    The no load power draw is pretty darn high though! - would be a killer on a small off grid system.

    Clearly they can be grid tied but it's not clear from that spec sheet that they can sell power to the grid - I assume they can.

    Interesting marketing ploy - the model number name is based on the 30 minute output capacity not the continuous rated output (Honda does the same thing with their generators).

    Also - they note a high power factor but do not state there is active power factor correction. This would be big plus - though as we've seen, the Outback chargers have measured power factor in the mid 90s (at least at higher charge rates) without having active PFC.

    Very nice looking units.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #5
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    mtdoc wrote: »
    Clearly they can be grid tied but it's not clear from that spec sheet that they can sell power to the grid - I assume they can.

    Yes, it sells power to the grid. It's a hybrid inverter/charger and it has generator support too. The Gen Support was the first thing I asked about it.
    --
    Chris
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    call me skeptical here when they put crap in the specs like, dead battery charge-yes.:confused:
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #7
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    niel wrote: »
    call me skeptical here when they put crap in the specs like, dead battery charge-yes.:confused:

    Most inverters require DC input in order for anything to work in them, including the internal transfer relays, battery charger, etc.. That just means that the SW can power up it's internal relays and charger from the AC source in the event the DC side is completely dead.
    --
    Chris
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Most inverters require DC input in order for anything to work in them, including the internal transfer relays, battery charger, etc.. That just means that the SW can power up it's internal relays and charger from the AC source in the event the DC side is completely dead.
    --
    Chris
    If it were not for that, you would end up having to parallel in a charged battery string to "jump-start" the CC. Which is not likely to be very good for either set of batteries.
    Or you can substitute a good battery and then figure out how to start charging the low battery without releasing smoke.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #9
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    inetdog wrote: »
    If it were not for that, you would end up having to parallel in a charged battery string to "jump-start" the CC. Which is not likely to be very good for either set of batteries.
    Or you can substitute a good battery and then figure out how to start charging the low battery without releasing smoke.

    If the old SW's shut down due to LBCO they wouldn't come back online until you applied an external charging source to the batteries to get the inverter fired back up. They won't charge, none of the relays will click on, nothing. Not sure what the XW does. But they "fixed" that in new SW for sure, being able to fire the inverter back up on the AC input.

    Edit:
    Actually, I guess I do know what the XW does - it's the same as the old SW's. Without battery power at "legal" voltage, it's dead. Nothing works in it. I remember talking to a guy once that has a XW6048 and his batteries went dead and the only thing that worked in the inverter was the AC bypass in the conduit box.
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    It is normal for an OG inverter to not function if battery Voltage is too low. That includes no activation of the built-in transfer switch (if equipped) because the default setting is "invert" not "charge". More than once I've advised people with this problem to bypass the charge controller and dump everything the panels can push to the batteries and see if they can push them above turn-on Voltage so that the charger can be used from a generator.

    So the question here is: what is "dead battery"? If the battery is down to 1 Volt can the unit be made to try and charge it? Is the transfer switch default "charge" instead of "invert"? Perhaps that is what they mean.

    Although usually a battery too low to activate the circuitry isn't going to recharge anyway. At least not very well or back to a usable state.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #11
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    So the question here is: what is "dead battery"? If the battery is down to 1 Volt can the unit be made to try and charge it? Is the transfer switch default "charge" instead of "invert"? Perhaps that is what they mean.

    Someone would have to ask Schneider tech support about how the SW handles this. But "dead" is anything below 1.75VPC in any inverter I've ever worked with. So it would 10.5V on a 12V system, 21V on a 24V system and 42V on a 48V system. And I'm pretty sure that most battery manufacturers also consider 1.75VPC to be "dead" and fully discharged.

    This has always been a problem with off-grid inverters once they shut down due to LBCO being reached. There's settings in most of them to set LBCO and where the inverter fires back up. If you set the fire-up voltage too high, you're going to have a problem bringing it back online without an external charging source to bring it back up. Some of them, like the old SW's, can be physically disconnected from the battery, reconnect it and get it to fire up if the voltage is above the LBCO setting. But being able to fire it up on the AC input is a nice feature in the event something like that would happen. It prevents having to jump thru a bunch of hoops to bring a shut-down inverter back online due to a failed battery or something.
    --
    Chris
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    I thought maybe they built this for me...
    ...but adding a 1KWh (40wattsx24h) per day load to my system is pretty big, perhaps it's less than 40watts as my Prosine is written <22watts and typically draws 15-6watts.

    I didn't see any mention of grid tie it clearly says "Off-grid Solar and Backup Power Solutions" Can someone tell me where they see reference to grid tied? It looks like an off grid inverter with a pass through. I do see "Community Electrification" but that can mean anything...

    Looks like it is made like the old SW line, weights of 50 and 67 lbs.

    Also shows UL 1741 but I'd like to see what provision has been made for incasing the DC cables.

    Looks like they have an integrated DC breaker box Here's a video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ys_L1-TsOyk
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    Photowhit wrote: »
    I thought maybe they built this for me...
    ...but adding a 1KWh (40wattsx24h) per day load to my system is pretty big

    Split phase inverters draw more power at idle no-load (not in Search Mode) than single phase do. Our XW pulls almost an amp from the battery at idle no-load. It's virtually zero percent efficient at idle no-load and reaches peak efficiency of ~96% at 800-1,000 watt load, with the efficiency curve pretty flat until it gets over 4 kVA output.

    So one of the basic facts about power inverters is that they are terribly inefficient, inverting with very low loads. And if you run an inverter in that power range a lot off-grid, you should be looking at ways to convert those small loads to DC and just skip the inverter, using it only for higher-draw stuff where it's more efficient.
    --
    Chris
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    Another way of looking at what Chris is talking about:

    Say the inverter draws 20 Watts just to be "on".

    Load is 200 Watts. Power drawn from battery is 200 + conversion loss + inverter draw. Say 243 Watts. Of that 200 Watts is for the actual load: 82% of the power coming from the battery.

    Now increase the load to 2000 Watts. Now it's 2242 Watts from battery, of which 2000 is actual load: 89% of the power coming from the battery.

    This is with a fixed conversion efficiency of 90%, which will not in reality be fixed.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Looks like they have an integrated DC breaker box Here's a video.

    It is probably the same as with XW. You would need to pay extra. The two similar boxes for wiring XW are approximately $1500.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #16
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Say the inverter draws 20 Watts just to be "on".

    Another way to look at it is that for off-grid systems your inverter should never be in a situation where it's running in invert mode with no load on it. That's what they put the Search function in inverters for. So in reality, the inverting idle power consumption spec is a non-issue, and only really tells you what the electronics in the inverter draw once it comes out of search for running really light loads like a single CFL or something. For the new SW, for instance, running a single 15 watt CFL, the actual draw from your battery is going to be maybe 55 watts. Which is pretty typical for split-phase inverters. A single phase (120V only output) inverter will probably be more like 40-45 watts draw from the battery to run that same light bulb.

    But, if you put an autotransformer on your single phase inverter so you got split phase power, now with the idle insertion loss of the transformer you're going to be right back up to that ~50-55 watts to run that single light bulb, that the split phase inverter takes.

    Just like with a lot of things, there is no free lunch with inverters.

    Edit:
    Another factor to consider for off-grid is that if you have digital clocks in your stuff that you want to keep powered up 24/7, you can't use the Search Mode in the inverter unless the device that has the clock in it has a battery backup to keep the clock ticking while the inverter is pulsing its output, looking for enough load to turn itself on. In that event, resign yourself to buying an extra 100 watt solar panel to run your digital clocks :D
    --
    Chris
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    And if you run an inverter in that power range a lot off-grid, you should be looking at ways to convert those small loads to DC and just skip the inverter, using it only for higher-draw stuff where it's more efficient.

    Another option is to use a second, low power inverter that is always on and just turn on the big inverter for the big loads. I have my general house wiring (lights, computer, radio, TV, etc) on one circuit breaker panel, and have a second circuit breaker panel which has only four outlets: one for the washing machine, one for the central vac, one in the kitchen for food processor, and one in the garage for power tools.

    At the moment my two circuit breaker panels are tied together because I haven't yet purchased my second, smaller inverter (I'm waiting to see what Midnite comes up with). I would like to buy the Victron Phoenix 700 watt inverter (5 watt no load draw), but it is not designed to be hard-wired. Exeltech does make a similar sized inverter that can be hard-wired, but it draws 8 watts at no load.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    I guess I'm pretty happy with my Prosine, as I said it draws <22 watts by the book, and I measured it with the sears clamp meter when I first got it with nearly nothing running, Air Conditioning remote sensor, Microwave LCD... and it was around 16 watts, not sure how accurate that is at <1amp.

    BTW - It's alive! my Sears Clamp meter is working again! pretty cool, just needed 6 months off... So do I keep using my manual zeroing Amprobe meter... perhaps throw it in with my cabin solar system if I come to terms with someone...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #19
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Another option is to use a second, low power inverter that is always on and just turn on the big inverter for the big loads.

    Yep. That works too. We used to go to great extremes to conserve on every watt, even having a surge strip on the microwave that we could turn off to kill the digital clock in it so the inverter would go into search mode. As our system grew over time and solar panels got cheaper it seems we've gone more to "turn it on and leave it on". We don't even worry anymore about our HDTV drawing about 20 watts in standby, waiting for a turn-on signal from the remote :cry:
    --
    Chris
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    ChrisOlson wrote: »
    Yep. That works too. We used to go to great extremes to conserve on every watt, even having a surge strip on the microwave that we could turn off to kill the digital clock in it so the inverter would go into search mode. As our system grew over time and solar panels got cheaper it seems we've gone more to "turn it on and leave it on". We don't even worry anymore about our HDTV drawing about 20 watts in standby, waiting for a turn-on signal from the remote :cry:

    I checked all my stuff and I don't see it consuming anything while being in the standby mode, even old non-flat TV :confused:

    I don't use search mode because I have a server, network switches, hubs, routers, which all together use 60W all the time, but I do think of a better solution, such as using a micro-computer or a laptop. One of my ideas was to run all these things from a small separate inverter or even from DC converter. But even then I couldn't use the seach mode because of the furnace and water heater.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    ... furnace and water heater.

    I take it the furnace is really a fan?

    and the water heater, is that electric? might just put that on a timer to only be on during the day, it should store hot water reasonably well.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    Photowhit wrote: »
    I take it the furnace is really a fan?

    and the water heater, is that electric? might just put that on a timer to only be on during the day, it should store hot water reasonably well.

    They're both electronic. Furnace is 98% efficient condensating furnace, and water heater is tankless. They don't consume much while on standby. When they turn on, they consume more because of solenoids in the valves, and furnace has a big fan.

    If you turn them off they will not work.
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  • ChrisOlson
    ChrisOlson Banned Posts: 1,807 ✭✭
    #23
    Re: Schneider new inverter
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    I checked all my stuff and I don't see it consuming anything while being in the standby mode, even old non-flat TV

    Ours does. It's got a USB disk drive plugged in on the back of it and it comes on all by itself if we tell it to record a TV program we want to watch off our new digital TV service we got thru the phone lines, so we can watch it when we get time. It must have computers in it because it draws 20 watts, and the TV draws about 180 watts if we're watching it.
    --
    Chris
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    We have done quite a lot of conservation in the past, and did run Search Mode for a month or so when the system was first up and running, BUT had thought that most folks had graduated to letting their inverters just run. The SW+ inverter pairs here use about 40 watts with no load, and that is 1 Kwh per day nominal, still not worth running search.

    It IS nice to have much better and much more reliable OG power here than in town, and search mode spoils that smugness.

    I was surprised that the latest Schneider Inverter would burn 40-ish watts with no loads ... much of that might be in the main transformer. One would think that the electronics would be fairly low power consumers these days.

    Opinions, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    search mode. With the new fridges that reset to a defrost cycle, when power fails (if the power is off, it's going to defrost in 30 minutes anyway, why slow the re-chill with a heater cycle) the ozone water purifier (50 w UV lamp and air pump) a couple night lights and timers, we just let the big hunk of iron run, and eat the loss. TV and such is on a outlet strip, and we use an headless android computer with a HDMI connection to our TV, as a TIVO and MP4 player - only 8 watts for the android with no screen.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • detayor
    detayor Registered Users Posts: 1 ✭
    #26
    Re: Schneider new inverter

    I have this Inverter (Conext sw4024) with an AC output under-voltage fault.
    please need a solution
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  • littleharbor2
    littleharbor2 Solar Expert Posts: 2,113 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #27
    Welcome to the forum, Detayor. There are some resident Schneider experts here who should be able to help. Your best bet though would be to start your own new thread in the off grid and battery systems category.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric,  460 Ah. 24 volt LiFePo4 battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

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