PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Anyone have this Charge Controller?

60A MPPT Charge Controller - $341

They are made in China's neighborhood, Taiwan...but before you scoff....Most of the electronics you use today are.

I would take a WAG that OutBack Charge Controllers are made in that part of the world also?

Anyway...they seem to be popular and sell quite a few...and they're at least $200 less than an Outback.

Not sure if their track record is known and warranty would be a PITA and expensive.

This part concerns me somewhat....
"*This controller is 100% powered by PV only (not by battery) and so unit will be disabled in low or no light conditions. "

gww1 · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

They mention 1500 watts several times. The outback at 48 volts will handle 3200watts.
gww

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Looks like their reverse-engineers read the forum:
they've picked up on the number "6048" from the XW series (irrelevant to charge controllers) and have "stand alone" printed proudly on the front (one of my favourite terms used to describe battery chargers separate from the inverter).

Otherwise ...
You don't measure CC output by Watts. 60 Amps comes out differently at 12, 24, and 48 Volts.
Not powered by battery? Good; it would be a miracle if it could make the battery charge itself. i suspect the electronics inside are powered by battery.
"Increases performance by at least 20-25%" over PWM? Absolute rubbish.
Four stage charging "bulk/pulse/Float1/ Float2"? That means what?

Hard to say if this gibberish is a result of poor translation or lack of engineering.
Your money; spend it as you wish. No telling what you'll actually get, going by the info provided.

Outback controllers, btw, are still made in U.S.A.

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Looks like their reverse-engineers read the forum:
they've picked up on the number "6048" from the XW series (irrelevant to charge controllers) and have "stand alone" printed proudly on the front (one of my favourite terms used to describe battery chargers separate from the inverter).

Otherwise ...
You don't measure CC output by Watts. 60 Amps comes out differently at 12, 24, and 48 Volts.
Not powered by battery? Good; it would be a miracle if it could make the battery charge itself. i suspect the electronics inside are powered by battery.
"Increases performance by at least 20-25%" over PWM? Absolute rubbish.
Four stage charging "bulk/pulse/Float1/ Float2"? That means what?

Hard to say if this gibberish is a result of poor translation or lack of engineering.
Your money; spend it as you wish. No telling what you'll actually get, going by the info provided.

Outback controllers, btw, are still made in U.S.A.

My first choice would be an Outback FlexMax60....AND a P800 GTR Switzer....

Wallet reality check.......

Outback....eventually......and a Mitsubish Starion :-(

That's why I'm checking to see if anyone here has had one for a while and how it has worked for them.

I didn't know Outback was Made in the USA? Are you sure you don't mean "Assembled" in the USA?
Are they actually manufactured start to finish in the USA? Other than gun and ammo manufacturers
I thought they had all gone offshore.

Photowhit · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Gotta suggest a Midnite Classic $610 or Classic Lite $500 delivered prices through Northern Arizona Wind and Sun. So to be able to accurately charge batteries while the system is under load, measuring the charge delivered to the battery across your shunt. (about a $60 add on) also has a higher capacity for a growing system, and some pretty good folks running the company. US made as well.

The Classic Lite will do almost everything the Classic will do but no fancy graphics screen, you must program and retrieve the info via network cable.

stephendv · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Photowhit wrote: »

Gotta suggest a Midnite Classic $610 or Classic Lite $500 delivered prices through Northern Arizona Wind and Sun.

What he said

For $160 more than a completely unknown charge controller, you get a state of the art controller with all the tech support you need and built by a company with a good reputation.

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

In all honesty...I PREFER an Outback or similar US MADE unit.

Anyone shop at Harbor Freight?

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

Anyone shop at Harbor Freight?

I would not suggest going there for solar panels+charge controllers.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

BTW the FM60 is only $515 (the FM80 is $570) and has a meter built-in http://www.solar-electric.com/oupofl60mpso.html

I'd avoid the MS Tristar 60 MPPT as it is more money and not really as good http://www.solar-electric.com/motr60ampmps.html

Xantrex's XW controller is cheaper at $480 http://www.solar-electric.com/xaxwmp60amps.html Would not be my choice either.

MidNite's Classic Lite is $20 more and the best controller available sans meter http://www.solar-electric.com/misoclli150m.html

Just to show you some options.

mike95490 · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Don't forget the Rogue Controller, it's a player for the low-mid power systems too.
http://www.roguepowertech.com/

update -

I personally use the MS tristar MPPT 60, and have it and my XW gateway integrated into a wireless router. with a 20db gain antenna at my laptop, I can get the signal in my office 400' away, and can monitor it wirelessly vi it's integral web server.
I'm on my 2nd one though, my initial one lasted 3 years, and something smoked inside, and it failed gracefully enough that I
only noticed when the daily logs stopped making sense. Batteries were charging, but the absorb time was not being adhered to and other data was amiss. The XW voltage logs showed battery was still healthy, and no damage was done. An advance replacement controller was sent to me, a couple hours to swap it out, and mail the dud back. Great service from MS.

Photowhit · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

In all honesty...I PREFER an Outback or similar US MADE unit.

Anyone shop at Harbor Freight?

??? Don't think HF sells anything made in the USA???

From the Midnite Classic Box in my family room;
Attachment not found.

Blackcherry04 · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Photowhit wrote: »

??? Don't think HF sells anything made in the USA???

From the Midnite Classic Box in my family room;

Is that made in the USA or Assembled in the USA ?? There is a difference you know.

Vic · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

The Classic is Made in the USA. But most of the semiconductors are probably made in Asia, and for the Classic that has the LCD Display, the display is also probably made in Asia, as are the fans - probably.

The Classic is the real deal. It has teriffic engineering inside, with the ability for you do update the FirmWare while the CC is on the wall. The OB CCs were great, but are a bit dated now IMHO, and any FW update requires a trip back to WA for programming, or perhaps to the distributor on other Continents. MN has an Application that allows monitoring of the Classic, and its history. They are Testing a Web-based application that will allow monitoring of MN systems from anywhere in the world, plus many many other functions. There will soon be an inexpensive Shunt-based battery current monitor that allows termination of the Absorption charge stage based on just the charge current going into the batteries. This is a rare function, and is rumored to be in the range of $ US 75.00 or so -- very inexpensive.

Have run OB MX-60s for 8 years and they are great for their time. The Classic line of CCs is really the best for almost all systems. The exceptions might be for ALL OB systems leaning toward OB CCs, and perhaps in the case of Schneider's XW line of CCs in an ALL XW system (even with all of their shortcomings).

My opinions. MidNite has a very active Forum for support, with MN Engineering playing a very important part of supporting their products on their Forum, AND, MN Tech and Engineering are active on this Forum as well -- Halfcrazy (tech), boB and Robin are Founders of OB and MN are representing MN Engineering here as well. Good Luck, Vic

Photowhit · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

"The Made in USA mark is a country of origin label indicating the product is "all or virtually all" made in the U.S. The label is regulated by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC)." From Wikipedia

See photo...

FWIW - If your trying to stay with American made equipment, I don't know if you could find a better company, The owners of Midnite are engineers who at least one was with Trace/Xantrex and started with OutBack and Started Midnite. My understanding while making their E-Panels Robin even helped OutBack survive a tough period.

Here's a PDF of some of what Robin had engineered before the Classic, I think Brother boB had some fingers in the Classic and certainly does now. If you look closely you'll see Outback inverters and FM CC's...

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

BB. wrote: »

I would not suggest going there for solar panels+charge controllers.

-Bill

The inference being it is better to buy American when possible.....but many of us buy Chinese frequently....:cool:

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

No--It is that the Harbor Freight "typical" solar panels (the 45 watt panel kit) and charge controllers are not worth much (thin film plus a simple PWM controller). They are OK to experiment with--but not really good for long term (years) power.

If they sold crystaline panels and higher end charge controllers--We could talk.

-Bill

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

It's no use....

Take us home Number One

bmet · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Their real name should Chinese Harbor Freight!

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Perhaps I am missing something... Talking about a specific product that even ~6 years ago was commented on:

RandomJoe wrote: »

I'll caution you on the HF panels, even that 45W rating is highly optimistic! I started with a set of them (and still use them) but the absolute best I ever got was 30W, that was the day I opened them and aimed them carefully at the July noonday sun. Best output on a regular basis while on the roof has been 20-25W. Others have seen similar numbers from them.

So keep that in mind when sizing loads and estimating how much power you can draw from your battery. I found I was able to reliably replace 9AH per day in winter (depends on your solar insolation, of course). That really isn't very much power, when you start adding things up! Be careful not to overdo it and kill the battery.

I replaced the HF controller pretty quickly with a better one from NAWS, the HF one just switches the panels on/off to the batteries. And mine did that at an undesirably high voltage - 14.8-15V, which is higher than I wanted the battery to stay for any length of time. The replacement does the three-stage charge pattern - bulk, absorption, float - and (I figure, anyway) keeps the battery much happier long term.

The HF controller can still be useful as a power distribution unit, if you want.

For a slightly larger panel/array you will get a 140 watt rated panel:

Harbor Freight 45 watt kit (3x15 watt panels+controller ~$190):

[TH="class: label"]Product Height[/TH]
36-21/50 in.

[TH="class: label"]Product Length
[/TH]
12-21/50 in. * 3 = ~37 inches

Area = ~ 1,354 sq.in.

~$190/~25 watt actual power output = $7.60 per watt (derated)

Kyocera 140 Watt panel: ( ~$300 + $45 SunSaver 10 amp 12 volt solar charge controller):
Length x Width x Depth (inches) 59.1 x 26.3 x 1.8
Area = ~ 1,554 sq.in.
~($300+$45) / ~ (0.77 eff * 140 watt) = $3.20 per watt (derated)

The Kyocera system does not including wiring. And for both systems you will have to add shipping and handling.

Not worried about where the panels are produced--Just looking at function and retail pricing (again, shipping a single panel can be frightfully expensive for glass solar panels and the 140 Watt panel is probably small enough to go UPS/Bus/Etc... Larer panels usually have to ship by truck--So always look at the total costs before pushing the order button).

-Bill

westbranch · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Most of the big Courier companies will ship 2 panels per package. I got 2 x 140W. pricy but came in 4 days...

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Bill, can you please tell me how this thread about Charge Controllers ended up discussing Harbor Freight Solar Panels ?

Maybe I'm the one missing something?

I didn't think anyone serious about Solar power would use Harbor Freight Solar panel kits (or cheap charge controllers)?
But..then....

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

KnowledgeSponge wrote: »

In all honesty...I PREFER an Outback or similar US MADE unit.

Anyone shop at Harbor Freight?

And there's the answer.

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

Anyone shop at Harbor Freight?

If that was intended as sarcasm--It is very difficult in pure text forums to read as there are no body language queues.

You can always try /sarc (end sarcasm) or a emoticon

--if it is helpful.

We try to run a technical forum and answer questions as we get them. There is a wide range of users here and we try not to assume too much when answering (i.e., sometimes more information is given rather than less).

-Bill

Plus it would not be the first time I posted a reply to the wrong thread...

niel · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

i might add that the flexmax series is cheaper than $570 at naws and is currently going for $515. one could also get a classic lite at $500 which is not an imported product.

as to what bill said, he is right that misunderstandings do occur when not making some indicators of your intended meanings. i am guilty of having some misunderstandings due to that and it created needless tension that was not meant in the first place. none of us are perfect or can read minds yet.:p see tongue meaning i'm not coming from a bad direction with my comment.

westbranch · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

BB, I got it ...but I had to look at it twice, then I read it the context of the whole posting, made perfect sense!8)

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

I clarified my post (I think)... Trying to answer "in the general" and not pick on anyone. Sure way to start flame wars that were not intended by calling out names.

-Bill :-)

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

I should add--That the original poster "owns" the direction of the thread... If desired, I have no problem "pruning" off topic stuff to stay on thread.

-Bill

KnowledgeSponge · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

I wasn't trying to bust anyone's chops at all. I was trying to ask Bill what HF might have to do with Charge Controllers.
I do believe they sell "some" solar stuff....but I wouldn't buy that kinda of stuff from HF (except a long time ago I did buy their 145watt solar kit for experimenting).

I'm a confessed Noob so I have to ask sometimes if there's something going on that I don't understand.

It may have come across as a flame...but it wasn't. If we had been in person (like someone said) it would have been more apparent. Sry.

It was actually intended as tongue in cheek humor since I would gamble there more than one or two of us here that
DO buy from Harbor Freight. It's actually hard to shop without buying Chinese. (unfortunately)

BB. · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

You would be surprised how often "humor" is misinterpreted on forums (including there). Throw in some cultural/language differences--And it is better to not even attempt it sometimes. At least without using some emoticons.

It is natural to use humor to try and keep things light and from getting "personal"--But boy, can that blow up.

Everyone usually means well here--We just get passionate when we try to help folks from making the same mi$takes we ourselves have made--and that may be read as being snarky or intolerant of experimentation. Not our intent at all (we do want to keep people safe too).

-Bill

NorthGuy · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

BB. wrote: »

You would be surprised how often "humor" is misinterpreted on forums (including there).

That's very true. People on the forum have absolutely no sense of humor. Just look at the faces ...

Cariboocoot · May 2013

Re: PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

NorthGuy wrote: »

That's very true. People on the forum have absolutely no sense of humor. Just look at the faces ...

I had mine surgically removed.
My sense of humour that is, not my face.
Probably should have done it the other way 'round.

(This is called "deadpan". We don't have an emoticon for it.)

PCM 6048 ebay Charge Controller vs Outback FlexMax 60 - $341 vs $570

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