Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

NIFEinME · February 2013

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

Thanks very much intedog and westbranch,

I will try those methodologies next time I run a charge/discharge cycle. More data is always a good thing

I'll try some more cycles with my ~20A charger before deciding to step up to a higher capacity. I'd still appreciate any thoughts on a good charger for my application. I cannot find any single phase forklift chargers that run on 120 and will output 67.5 DC amps. It seems like my best bet is to eventually step directly into the an Outback or some other charger/inverter which can handle this charging load. I mention the Outback only because the specifications documents are more voluminous that the other brands and it explicitly states that I can program custom equalization charges quite close to what I need -- other brands or types of charger recommendations are welcome.

I do continue to have a question about "de-rating" cells' performance for age. Peter Demar talks about it in his excellent paper on attempts to restore old Edisons which can be found here: http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/Edison%20Cell%20Rejuvenation%2085%20yr-old%2013.%20DeMar.pdf

It is not clear to me how to preform the de-rating. I think what he explains is that the test load amps should be reduced by a certain factor, but that the test discharge should run for the same period of time. I just can't quite figure out how his math works. . .I'm sure the confusion is on my part.

I wrote a quick little formula in Excel using my interpretation of his approach and it looked something like this:

Nominal AH Annual DeRating Age in Years Year Manufactured DeRated AH
67.5 1% 38 1975 46.07
67.5 1% 39 1974 45.61
67.5 1% 40 1973 45.16
67.5 1% 41 1972 44.70
67.5 1% 42 1971 44.26
67.5 1% 43 1970 43.81
67.5 1% 44 1969 43.38
67.5 1% 45 1968 42.94
67.5 1% 46 1967 42.51
67.5 1% 47 1966 42.09
67.5 1% 48 1965 41.67
67.5 1% 49 1964 41.25
67.5 1% 50 1963 40.84
67.5 1% 51 1962 40.43
67.5 1% 52 1961 40.03
67.5 1% 53 1960 39.62
67.5 1% 54 1959 39.23
67.5 1% 55 1958 38.84
67.5 1% 56 1957 38.45
67.5 1% 57 1956 38.06
67.5 1% 58 1955 37.68
67.5 1% 59 1954 37.31
67.5 1% 60 1953 36.93
67.5 1% 61 1952 36.56
67.5 1% 62 1951 36.20
67.5 1% 63 1950 35.84

I used a 1% per year compounding decrease in AH discharge rate. The cells that I have are of mixed ages, the newest being manufactured by Exide ('72-'75) and the oldest being in the 40's. My current load test setup is a string of DC bulbs which draw about 45 amps.

I'm thinking that since I cannot put together a string with a coherent age (even within a modest range) it probably doesn't matter that much what I choose for a discharge test, just as long as I keep it consistent through all the charge/discharge cycles.

Thoughts?

Thanks as always.

inetdog · February 2013

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

NIFEinME wrote: »

Nominal AH Annual DeRating Age in Years Year Manufactured DeRated AH
67.5 1% 38 1975 46.07
67.5 1% 39 1974 45.61

I used a 1% per year compounding decrease in AH discharge rate. The cells that I have are of mixed ages, the newest being manufactured by Exide ('72-'75) and the oldest being in the 40's. My current load test setup is a string of DC bulbs which draw about 45 amps.

I'm thinking that since I cannot put together a string with a coherent age (even within a modest range) it probably doesn't matter that much what I choose for a discharge test, just as long as I keep it consistent through all the charge/discharge cycles.
Thoughts?

Thanks as always.

Once again, paying attention to the units used makes a very big difference!

The table you have created shows the capacity of the battery in Amp Hours (AH) when discharged at the specified rate (apparently the five hour rate for the nominal capacity of these cells.)
That means that if you start at a 67.5 AH cell, manufactured in 1975, it would now be 38 years old and with good treatment but no radical rejuvenation it should be expected to be a 46 AH cell now.

That means that if you have a completely new 67.5 AH cell, you can draw a current of 67.5/5 = 13.5 Amps for five hours and end up with the cell at 1.0 volts.
If the capacity of the cell was only 10 AH, then you would be able to draw a current of 2 Amps for five hours and end up at 1.0 volts.

The cells he worked with started life as either 150AH or 300AH cells.
If a he recommends a 67.5 amp (not amp hour) charge rate for the 300AH cells, that would be a gross overcharge for what should now, in the best case, be only a 150AH cell.
When he plotted the load testing, we see that the 300AH cells delivered 15 amps for about 5.5 hours, for a total of 82AH. But the 150AH cells of similar age produced very close to the same total output!

Your results of 60AH seems reasonable for old cells, but not for the newer ones. But if you mix old and new cells in the same string, you can expect them to be of different capacities, and so when you discharge the series string the old cells will be the ones which limit the capacity.

For the long run, if you find that you end up with, for example, 100AH newer cells and 50AH older ones, you can either make separate strings from them or (shudder) use two of the 50AH cells in parallel as elements of your string, combined with single 100AH newer cells.

NIFEinME · February 2013

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

inetdog wrote: »

Once again, paying attention to the units used makes a very big difference!

Right you are inetdog, and thanks for the reply.

I cut and paste from a scratch worksheet without carefully reviewing my column headers. As I pasted, I agree with everything you state.

Below is a more complete paste. As you can see my cells are 337.5AH rated so my best performance of 60AH represents less than 20% of rated capacity.

Nominal AH Nominal Amp Rate Annual DeRating Age in Years Year Manufactured DeRated Amp Rate DeRated AH

337.5 67.5 1% 0 2013 67.50 337.5
337.5 67.5 1% 1 2012 66.83 334.1
337.5 67.5 1% 2 2011 66.16 330.8
337.5 67.5 1% 3 2010 65.50 327.5
337.5 67.5 1% 4 2009 64.84 324.2
337.5 67.5 1% 5 2008 64.19 321.0
337.5 67.5 1% 6 2007 63.55 317.7
337.5 67.5 1% 7 2006 62.91 314.6
337.5 67.5 1% 8 2005 62.29 311.4
337.5 67.5 1% 9 2004 61.66 308.3
337.5 67.5 1% 10 2003 61.05 305.2
337.5 67.5 1% 11 2002 60.44 302.2
337.5 67.5 1% 12 2001 59.83 299.2
337.5 67.5 1% 13 2000 59.23 296.2
337.5 67.5 1% 14 1999 58.64 293.2
337.5 67.5 1% 15 1998 58.05 290.3
337.5 67.5 1% 16 1997 57.47 287.4
337.5 67.5 1% 17 1996 56.90 284.5
337.5 67.5 1% 18 1995 56.33 281.6
337.5 67.5 1% 19 1994 55.77 278.8
337.5 67.5 1% 20 1993 55.21 276.0
337.5 67.5 1% 21 1992 54.66 273.3
337.5 67.5 1% 22 1991 54.11 270.6
337.5 67.5 1% 23 1990 53.57 267.8
337.5 67.5 1% 24 1989 53.03 265.2
337.5 67.5 1% 25 1988 52.50 262.5
337.5 67.5 1% 26 1987 51.98 259.9
337.5 67.5 1% 27 1986 51.46 257.3
337.5 67.5 1% 28 1985 50.94 254.7
337.5 67.5 1% 29 1984 50.43 252.2
337.5 67.5 1% 30 1983 49.93 249.6
337.5 67.5 1% 31 1982 49.43 247.2
337.5 67.5 1% 32 1981 48.94 244.7
337.5 67.5 1% 33 1980 48.45 242.2
337.5 67.5 1% 34 1979 47.96 239.8
337.5 67.5 1% 35 1978 47.48 237.4
337.5 67.5 1% 36 1977 47.01 235.0
337.5 67.5 1% 37 1976 46.54 232.7
337.5 67.5 1% 38 1975 46.07 230.4
337.5 67.5 1% 39 1974 45.61 228.1
337.5 67.5 1% 40 1973 45.16 225.8
337.5 67.5 1% 41 1972 44.70 223.5
337.5 67.5 1% 42 1971 44.26 221.3
337.5 67.5 1% 43 1970 43.81 219.1
337.5 67.5 1% 44 1969 43.38 216.9
337.5 67.5 1% 45 1968 42.94 214.7
337.5 67.5 1% 46 1967 42.51 212.6
337.5 67.5 1% 47 1966 42.09 210.4
337.5 67.5 1% 48 1965 41.67 208.3
337.5 67.5 1% 49 1964 41.25 206.3
337.5 67.5 1% 50 1963 40.84 204.2
337.5 67.5 1% 51 1962 40.43 202.1
337.5 67.5 1% 52 1961 40.03 200.1
337.5 67.5 1% 53 1960 39.62 198.1
337.5 67.5 1% 54 1959 39.23 196.1
337.5 67.5 1% 55 1958 38.84 194.2
337.5 67.5 1% 56 1957 38.45 192.2
337.5 67.5 1% 57 1956 38.06 190.3
337.5 67.5 1% 58 1955 37.68 188.4
337.5 67.5 1% 59 1954 37.31 186.5
337.5 67.5 1% 60 1953 36.93 184.7
337.5 67.5 1% 61 1952 36.56 182.8
337.5 67.5 1% 62 1951 36.20 181.0
337.5 67.5 1% 63 1950 35.84 179.2
337.5 67.5 1% 64 1949 35.48 177.4
337.5 67.5 1% 65 1948 35.12 175.6
337.5 67.5 1% 66 1947 34.77 173.9
337.5 67.5 1% 67 1946 34.42 172.1
337.5 67.5 1% 68 1945 34.08 170.4
337.5 67.5 1% 69 1944 33.74 168.7
337.5 67.5 1% 70 1943 33.40 167.0
337.5 67.5 1% 71 1942 33.07 165.3
337.5 67.5 1% 72 1941 32.74 163.7
337.5 67.5 1% 73 1940 32.41 162.0
337.5 67.5 1% 74 1939 32.09 160.4
337.5 67.5 1% 75 1938 31.76 158.8
337.5 67.5 1% 76 1937 31.45 157.2
337.5 67.5 1% 77 1936 31.13 155.7
337.5 67.5 1% 78 1935 30.82 154.1
337.5 67.5 1% 79 1934 30.51 152.6
337.5 67.5 1% 80 1933 30.21 151.0
337.5 67.5 1% 81 1932 29.91 149.5
337.5 67.5 1% 82 1931 29.61 148.0
337.5 67.5 1% 83 1930 29.31 146.6
337.5 67.5 1% 84 1929 29.02 145.1
337.5 67.5 1% 85 1928 28.73 143.6
337.5 67.5 1% 86 1927 28.44 142.2
337.5 67.5 1% 87 1926 28.16 140.8
337.5 67.5 1% 88 1925 27.87 139.4
337.5 67.5 1% 89 1924 27.60 138.0
337.5 67.5 1% 90 1923 27.32 136.6
337.5 67.5 1% 91 1922 27.05 135.2
337.5 67.5 1% 92 1921 26.78 133.9
337.5 67.5 1% 93 1920 26.51 132.5
337.5 67.5 1% 94 1919 26.24 131.2
337.5 67.5 1% 95 1918 25.98 129.9
337.5 67.5 1% 96 1917 25.72 128.6
337.5 67.5 1% 97 1916 25.46 127.3
337.5 67.5 1% 98 1915 25.21 126.0
337.5 67.5 1% 99 1914 24.96 124.8
337.5 67.5 1% 100 1913 24.71 123.5
337.5 67.5 1% 101 1912 24.46 122.3
337.5 67.5 1% 102 1911 24.22 121.1
337.5 67.5 1% 103 1910 23.97 119.9
337.5 67.5 1% 104 1909 23.73 118.7
337.5 67.5 1% 105 1908 23.50 117.5

Essentially what I am wresting with is the trade off between discharging at a constant current vs. discharging at a constant time.

My best discharge of 60AH at 45amps dropped battery voltage to 1.0V per cell in about an hour, effectively a C/1 rate. It seems to me that my options are to adjust the discharge amperage to get an effective C/5 rate, and then start a series of tests from there. Or to continue with the 45A load and just hope that as the battery recovers the run times increase.

It is a lot more work, and not as consistent to constantly be refactoring the discharge amperage, but it does strike me as "fairer" somehow.

It seems that Peter picked a discharge current informed by the derating methodology, but also somewhat arbitrarily (as he chose the same 15A rate for both 150AH and 300AH strings). My intent of asking about and trying to figure out how the derating was applied was to set reasonable benchmarks for expectations and for guidance on what discharge amperage might be appropriate.

Now that I think about it, it occurs to me that a constant amperage discharge may not be only or even best choice.

Thanks and thoughts?

inetdog · February 2013

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

NIFEinME wrote: »

Now that I think about it, it occurs to me that a constant amperage discharge may not be only or even best choice.

It is arguable what is the "best" test for your purposes, but the formal definition of the C rating of a battery requires that the discharge current be held constant, even as the battery voltage decreases by as much as a factor of 2. That is what makes the high power constant current loads used for battery testing so expensive (and uncommon.)

BillBlake · March 2013

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

NIFEinME wrote: »

Hi Bill, I hope you are still patrolling this board.

I am working no bringing back a string of C-6 Edison cells, manufactured in the early 50's.

Could you provide more detail on the "1904 reconditioned method"?

Thanks

NIFEinME,

As was stated in another forum this Ni-Fe subject can go round and round and round.
Someday if you have the time post the first Edison Patent about cleaning up the Elements
(applied for in 1904) and we can dissect what he said.
LINE by LINE.
I went back to work on a research project and don't have the free time of old
but I'll make the time if you want to set it up.

We could also go over some of what Zapp Works had to say.
They already proved what can be done with thousands of Edison NiFe plates and told me a lot.
Who else did they tell?
Why not show a little humility instead of thinking somehow we are going to re-invent
da wheel on some forum. :-)
It's already been done.

Bill Blake

Iron Bran · August 2013

Project Photos using Iron Edison batteries

Hello Forum Members,

I wanted to share some photos and information about actual Solar / Nickel Iron battery projects. It's important to discuss the theoretical benefits and drawbacks of any technology, but it's also important to share what you have learned...

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(This post is not an endorsement for any company, my goal is to share field experience with people who are interested in this developing technology)

BillBlake · October 2013

Re: Project Photos using Iron Edison batteries

Iron Bran wrote: »

Hello Forum Members,

I wanted to share some photos and information about actual Solar / Nickel Iron battery projects. It's important to discuss the theoretical benefits and drawbacks of any technology, but it's also important to share what you have learned...

(This post is not an endorsement for any company, my goal is to share field experience with people who are interested in this developing technology)

After many years and what would be hundreds of millions of dollars today I have never considered what Mr. Edison had to say
in his many Ni-Fe Patents to be "theoretical benefits and drawbacks".

Behold:

http://edison.rutgers.edu/battpats.htm

The problems back over a hundred years ago continue today but have grown worse since they had to get rid of
Mr. Edison's beloved Mercury.

Changhong Batteries (todays Ni-Fe builders) also lay it right on the line for people.

Unfortunately it turns out to be a sad technology that does have promise in the 'Next Life' but not now.

BillBlake

BillBlake · February 2014

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

Changhong Batteries has come up with some new Nickel Iron goodies since the
last time I visited with them.

In ... 'Changhong solar Ni-Iron cell user manual'

they drop the Graphite bomb for the first time that old Bill knows of.

Mr. Edison made very special notice about Graphite being a big part of his
Ni-Fe scheme over 109 years ago.

Between 4 - 5 months later he told the world that the Graphite (in the positive elements)
mixed with the Nickel Hydroxid just HAD to go.

Edison was replacing the graphite (THIS TIME)

with flakes made up of a Cobalt / Nickel alloy.

Say, 60 / 40% he said.

The formula was changing over the years.
As I have said before there never was a
true
Nickel Iron Battery except as an experiment.

That includes the Graphite, Cobalt, Copper deals made today in 2014.
Can I get a witness :-)

Dont believe they EVER did recover from not using that Magic Mercury any longer.

They have a new 'Changhong Ni-Iron cell catalogue' now as well.

I breezed through it and noticed one huge change. There may be another.
See if you can catch it.

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni-Fe_battery_for_Solar_&_wind_appliances_pm53_m3.3_g47.html

Here is the OLD 'Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue.'

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Nickel-lron(Ni-Fe)_c13_m2.2.1.html

Quite the new statement about what to look for in that used Electrolyte
can be found in the new Ni-Iron User Manual.
Also other tidbits.

The MSDS Link on the 'Changhong and the Electric Indian' website

has been removed and shut down however my buddy,
The KW Kid, says he knows a backdoor man way into the badboy MSDS anyway.
He he he.

Here is a <snip>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

MSDS NO. : CHANGHONG 2011

MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET

1. PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

Product Description: Industrial Nickel-Iron (NiFe) Rechargeable Battery

Product Model: TN, NF-S Standard designation:

In accordance with China National Standard/ Company Standard.

Positive electrode: Nickel hydroxide

Negative electrode: Iron hydroxide

Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide solution.

The respective percentage contents of nickel and iron are 20% and 60%.

Electrochemistry reaction formula:

2Ni(OH)2 + Fe(OH)2 = 2β-NiOOH+Fe+2H2O

Nominal voltage: 1.2Volts

2.COMPANY IDENFICATION

Supplier Name: Sichuan Changhong Battery Co., Ltd. Address:
NO.18 NANTA ROAD, SECTION 1, MIANYANG, CHINA

For emergency assistance, call:0086-816-2863230/2863219

Order On line: info@changhongbatteries.com

3. PRODUCT APPLICATION

The Industrial Nickel-Iron (NiFe) Rechargeable Batteries are widely applicable for PV power supply system,
energy storage application and other more renewable energy applications.

4. CHEMICAL COMPOSITION

SUBSTANCES CLASSIFICATION

CHEMICAL INGREDIENTS

QUANTITY

Metals

Fe、Ni、Co 、Cu

60%〜70%

Plastics

PA /ABS/PVC/PE

5%〜10%

others

KOH、LiOH、H2O

15%〜30%

Bill Blake

Sam · April 2015

Hi all,
I'm a Changhong NF400-S user with Studer Innotec equipment. Been using it every day for two years now, and frankly, I haven't encountered any problems with this setup.
Have about 2KWp of solar, 24V setup with a 3.5kW inverter.

I use the'battery priority' settings, and use the grid as emergency backup.

We also sent smaller cells for testing at two european universities, one in Amsterdam, one in Belgium.
There is one endurance test running, that continuously charges and discharges a single cell.
There is no capacityloss to be seen in that cell, in fact, it even gained capacity the first 100 cycles and we had to set new scaling to go up to 110%.

The 400Ah bank has decent loads attached to it, sometimes drawing about 180A's out of the battery.
We're really satisfied with their performance actually.

So we were also quite surprised to read the profound scepsis towards these cells by some in this tread ?

I do agree that there are a lot of settings (voltages and random treatment) that make wether it fulfills it's function or not.
UPS-function I found the most difficult, it tends to fall asleep when not used..

Also we had the cells tested for materials and it accorded with what they said was in it?

mike95490 · April 2015

I am running a 800ah bank of NiFe, and the worst I can say is they are thirsty, thirsty beasts. Lots of distilled water. And not efficient for the absorb phase. But they have not gone dark on me. Lots of tweaking on the charge controllers to program times and voltages into them

kaipo_boy · April 2015

mike95490 wrote: »

I am running a 800ah bank of NiFe, and the worst I can say is they are thirsty, thirsty beasts. Lots of distilled water. And not efficient for the absorb phase. But they have not gone dark on me. Lots of tweaking on the charge controllers to program times and voltages into them

Mike95490, these cells have fascinated me for awhile. Could you please put the doubter in me to rest and answer a couple questions.... how long have you had them and have you noticed ANY DECREASE in capacity? And if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you post the best charging profile to use with them?

thanks!

mike95490 · April 2015

kaipo_boy wrote: »

Mike95490, these cells have fascinated me for awhile. Could you please put the doubter in me to rest and answer a couple questions.... how long have you had them and have you noticed ANY DECREASE in capacity? And if it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you post the best charging profile to use with them? thanks!

I believe they are about 3.5 years old ( commissioned Oct 2011 . https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.209715335768594.51674.120212794718849&type=3 )
They drink a lot of water. I have NOT noticed a decrease in capacity. They carry a 700ah at 5 hour rate, I think somewhere, I saw it 800 or 825 @20hour rate. I over-sized to workaround their high internal resistance, and have not seen any issues with resistance.
For my location, with poor winter sun (last november-december 2014 only had a few days of sun, otherwise it was all generator power & recharge) i saved a huge amount of fuel, just charging from 40% -80% and not caring about getting to 100% (there is no sulfation penalty like lead-acid has)

Winter, I absorb for 90 minutes, and summer, I back it off to 40 minutes to save on water.

Winters, in my unheated battery shed, the batteries can linger right around 0 Centigrade, which is fine for lead acid and NiFe batteries, but too cold to safely recharge LFP cells.

GreenPowerSolutions · March 2016

Randall said:

Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

Hi NIFE user, I also have a some C-6 Edison cells. The method(s) for reconditioning Edison cells can be found in Edison's own patents. Don't ask someone that does not actuality own any Edison cells or someone that does not post any real literature on Edison cells. I have been all over the web for the last couple of years studying up on these batteries and have found very little published data. I do have a Edison battery manual that does have all of specs on your C-6 cells. I have not been able to find this manual on the web but was able to purchase an original manual from ebay. Feel good about your self now that you own some Edison cells, you know more than 99% percent of these people in these forums. There is just to much BS in these forums to carry out any good discussion. No disrespect to any users here. Just my two cents, feel free to contact me.

"To err is human, to forgive is divine. To listen to fools that have no audited statistics; is stupidity." Hi Randall, kindly contact me on admin@carter.in. I would like to buy a copy of your C6 manual. I'd like to take shot at making a few batteries the way Edison did it.

SPSinOZ · September 2016

Hi there everyone, how are you going?

I have a customer who has purchased 40x 1000Ah NiFe cells & wants me to install them.
I am going to set up an 80A DC charge controller, and use an inverter/charger that has a max Vdc of 66V. As NiFe have a charge voltage range of 1.4-1.65Vdc, setting the max DC volts to 66Vdc would equate to 1.6Vdc per cell.

Does anyone see any issues with 1.6Vdc max cell charge voltage? Can I use a lower voltage - eg 1.5Vdc or 1.55Vdc? Alternatively, I can set up the battery with less cells - eg 38 or even 36 cells.

Not needing to recharge to 100% would mean the cells don't lose as much electrolyte, and sulphation is not an issue.

I will also be setting up the inverter charger to charge at low tariff times from the grid, in order to recover the cells when there is low insolation etc in winter.

I'd appreciate any experienced advice on voltage set points & charging regimes for this chemistry.

The guy is pretty keen on this type of cell.

Thanks in advance.

mike95490 · September 2016

Find a good source of distilled water for the very frequent top-off of the cells. They gas away much more water than lead acid does.
And the internal resistance (voltage sag on heavy loads) is very real, so overbanking is needed more than on lead acid.

You do need to reach full charge at some times to EQ the bank

And if anyone has a link to the regeneration documents or any in situ refreshment methods, could you share it ?

costi1010 · November 2016

Hi Guys,

I also recently commissioned a 40x 600Ahr Ni-Fe bank from CiYi and i have a lot of issues tweaking charging. The charger i own can deliver a lot of Amps but not too high voltages. Max i can set is 60V for bulk phase and as such for the bank it takes max 20-30 min @ 120A to reach that Voltage, then it drops over time significantly thus not allowing me to carry a full charge cycle which is 0,2C for 8h.
I would be interested in your opinion and how to tweak charging or oversize/undersize the bank. Would 38 or 39 batteries in the bank be better from charging perspective to reduce the voltage. It is the same question as SPsinOZ got in the previous post. Also i would be very interested on how mike95940 tweaked the charger and got the bank fully operational.

I would very much appreciate your opinions !!

Many Thanx !!!

mike95490 · November 2016

My XW6048 will only charge up to 64V. So I do rely on solar to get a full charge. Both Midnight and Morningstar controllers are able to be adjusted beyond the point where they will destroy my $$$$ inverter.
Each brand of controller has it's own adjustment procedure.

costi1010 · November 2016

So to understand right the bulk charging max voltage which is set for every controller is set @64V for the 40x Ni-Fe battery bank , right ?

softdown · November 2016

Given the incredible longevity and toughness of nickel-iron edison batteries, i am presently at a loss why their usage is not higher. So they use a LOT of water.....an automated watering system should not be overly difficult?

I have not even seen such a battery advertised. This book is not available: https://www.amazon.com/LEAD-ACID-NICKEL-IRON-ALKALINE-STORAGE-BATTERIES-RAILWAY/dp/B000N7FPZA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1478996754&sr=8-2&keywords=nickel-iron+edison+batteries

This thesis has a single review saying that 30 pages are missing the data at the bottom: https://www.amazon.com/Comparative-Nickel-Alkaline-Storage-Batteries/dp/1333935331/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1478996885&sr=8-1&keywords=nickel-iron++battery

softdown · November 2016

Found one serious seller for off grid users: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nickel-Iron-Battery-500-Ah-Bank-24V-/142177216186?hash=item211a6c26ba:g:meIAAOSwKtlWtBVW

45 days expected delivery from Chinese factory. This type of battery is also quite available in Europe.

Wondering why the US *seems* to have squelched this technology.

BB. · November 2016

Nickel/Iron batteries are around 65% to 80% efficient... That would reduce end to end off grid system efficiency down towards 41% system eff compared to 51% (typical worst case flooded cell lead acid battery).

But today, with much cheaper solar panels ($$$/Watt)--It would seem that lower efficiency can be overcome by a bit larger solar array.

The other issue may be the need for an AC inverter with a wider input voltage could help.

But this will be competing with newer battery technologies that may offer less service issues and/or lighter weight+higher energy densities?

-Bill

costi1010 · November 2016

@softdown -- Nice book ... U can find it here online
Comparative tests of lead / lead acid and nickel / iron alkaline storage batteries--> https://archive.org/details/comparativetests00ande

mike95490 · November 2016

costi1010 said:

So to understand right the bulk charging max voltage which is set for every controller is set @64V for the 40x Ni-Fe battery bank , right ?

No, that is merely the limit for MY particular inverter/charger. Both my solar controllers can be programmed to 70V, but I would fry other gear if I did that.
You have to go with the specs your battery vendor gave you, Different company's tune their electrolyte mix in different ways, and they have the final say of what charge voltage is. You just have to insure that you don't violate any specs for any other gear you have.

You can stay in absorb for longer periods, and that will pump more energy into the batteries, To get a really good charge in winter, I run the generator for a couple hours to get the batteries to Absorb voltage, and then let the solar do the rest, saves fuel, and gets a pretty good charge into them

softdown · November 2016

BB. said:

Nickel/Iron batteries are around 65% to 80% efficient... That would reduce end to end off grid system efficiency down towards 41% system eff compared to 51% (typical worst case flooded cell lead acid battery).

But today, with much cheaper solar panels ($$$/Watt)--It would seem that lower efficiency can be overcome by a bit larger solar array.

The other issue may be the need for an AC inverter with a wider input voltage could help.

But this will be competing with newer battery technologies that may offer less service issues and/or lighter weight+higher energy densities?

-Bill

Good point on the efficiency. I live on an alpine desert so efficiency is rarely an issue. Plus losses in efficiency are made up for by the fact that the batteries can be regularly drained to 0% with no damage.

With the remarkable affordability and efficiency of modern panels, it is time to take a better look at nickel-iron technology. Every experienced off-gridder readily acknowledges that battery technology is the achilles heel of off-grid PV solar. Permanent damage to a $4000-$10,000 battery bank because it was cloudy for several days? Or the relatives visited and played video games? Come on. We can do better than that. We must do better than that.

Plus we generally speak of battery longevity in 2-6 year time frames. My "newest" batteries are called "old" because they were made in Nov. 2014? Of course I think stuff should be made to last 100 years. I should be Amish.

costi1010 · November 2016

Hi Mike,

I still didn't understand what is your bulk voltage. U said it is not 64V because this is the limit of the charger. Then which voltage do you use for 40x batteries bank on the bulk phase and which one for absorption and float ?
Ni-Fe chemistry is always the same no matter the vendor particularly the chinese ones are completely the same, electrolyte combination is a mix of 3:1 meaning 3 parts distilled water and 1 part KOH and then add @ every liter 20g LiOH. This is valid for normal temperatures between -10 to 30 degree celsius.

Costi

Dave Angelini · November 2016

He is saying 70Vdc from the CC's. The inverter does not like above 64VDC.
It is not damaged by twice that voltage and tested much higher.
I am guessing he occaisonally just charges at 70v solar and either shuts down the inverter or ignores the faults/warnings.

mike95490 · November 2016

I'm not going to post my #'s because I use a 42 cell string, and my numbers won't work for you. I suggest using the highest end of the vendors range (because if you have a warranty issue, you deal with the vendor, not me or the Mfg.) and cram the most charge into the cells that way, only cost is more water.

BUT you have to be aware of the voltage limits of your other gear, and as Dave says, be prepared to on occasion, disconnect sensitive gear before you charge at max voltage.

costi1010 · November 2016

Hi Guys,

I found something amazing and so far i have not seen so many materials about Ni-Fe all together in the whole internet.
Look at this
http://nickelcells.com/pdf/infos/Eigenschaften Nickel-Eisen-Batterie.pdf
and this
http://nickelcells.com/pdf/manuf/microtherm_NiFe_de.pdf
Please believe me u will find everything tu need o know @ profi level in these documents, things like charging, discharging advantagse, disadvantages efficiency, ...everything u really need to know about Ni-Fe !!! U will even find informations which profi from this forum won't answer u directly like charging voltages and best practices to maximize lifetime etc.
The only drawback is that the documents are in german....but it is worth to even translate them.

This guy that wrote all these documents is really amazing !!!

The Ni-Fe battery is dead. Long live the Ni-Fe battery !!!
Cheers !!

softdown · November 2016

^^^Yet the charts and graphs are in English. Page 7 does a nice job of driving home the importance of keeping batteries cool. Page 8 demonstrates the impact of temperature on water consumption.... .a strong correlation.

Key points (some):
1) Cells are 1.2 volts rather than 2....thus requiring many more cells.
2) Construction technique appears to be about the same. They use nickel-plated iron instead of lead.
3) These batteries last about twice as long. With double the costs and no in country warranty, this is hard to get very excited about. Their toughness is their strongest appeal.

If a few companies made them, this battery would compete price wise and take over the market. Iron costs a fraction as much as lead. Nickel plating is readily done.

So....why the apparent efforts to squelch the nickel-iron battery? It should be called the iron battery anyway. Nickel plating is not a bid deal...cheaper than gold plating which costs almost nothing.

If our host decided to carry them, that would be interesting.

softdown · November 2016

Found a Colorado, USA distributor: http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery

We can get a 500 Ah 48 volt bank for $18,600. Made in China with 10 year warranty. Only discharge to 80%? I thought it was OK to discharge this type of battery to 100%.

Anyways...there is plenty of useful information at the site.

Now why are these batteries so expensive?

Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

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