Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

Wayne, Mike 90045 uses them

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

BillBlake wrote: »

It's a long, deep story that can't be covered in short Posts but perhaps over time I can make a few points, if that's OK.
If a person gets bored with battery technology in a hurry they may want to skip this thread.

I'm very interested. Please post on.

I'm particularly interested in how they would do in daily cycling vs. stand by use.

Alex Aragon

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

SolaRevolution wrote: »

I'm very interested. Please post on.

I'm particularly interested in how they would do in daily cycling vs. stand by use.

Alex Aragon

Hello Alex,

It may turn out that it's not only the number of Cycles that the Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) batteries
have in them but just exactly How Those Cycles Wind Up Getting Used.

Here's some straight data from Changhong themselves that hasn't been edited, transformed or chopped. That seems to be the new thing.

Changhong gets used for their Charts, Brochures, etc. but then the stuff gets the hack (edit) job.
Anything I ever put up is raw and natural since I'm just in this as a challenging, interesting hobby.

Here is a copy of an email that was sent to John D'Angelo' the unusual
Father of Chinese / American Ni-Fe Cells.

Though John got kind of run out (aggravated out) of a Solar Forum
he is still very interested in Ni-Fe.
We received 11 emails from him just last week alone.

Take a look at: 1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution in the Changhong Solar Brochure.
Mike was talking about this.

That wonderful explanation of what is going on was hacked here in America but we are looking at the Chinese version (in English)
with the Link that is Posted.


<snip>

Changhong NiFe Cells .. Has Your 50 to 100 YEARS ... 'Swinging'

---

Oct. 2010


Changhong NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries

for solar PV application


1.6.7 Cycling

The Changhong NF-S series NiFe

cell is adaptable to a wide range

of depth of discharge (DOD). The

number of cycles vary with DOD

required. The lower DOD is, the

more number of cycles are. The

number of cycles reach thousands

during shallow discharge, while it

can only reach hundreds of cycles

during deep discharge. The

following figure gives the effect of


DOD on the available cycle life.


Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Nickel-lron(Ni-Fe)_c13_m2.2.1.html


NOTE: With once Daily Cycling (See Chart)

__________________________________________



100% DOD = Well Under 3 Years



80% DOD = Around 3.3 Years



50% DOD = Around 8.6 Years



30% DOD = Around 16.8 Years



20% DOD = Around 23 Years

---

Jan. 2008



Changhong NiFe Operators Manual



1.4

Life time: The charge and discharge cycles should

be more than 750 times. During the life time, the

average discharge capacity should not be less

than nominal capacity. The minimum discharge

capacity should be more than 90% of the nominal

capacity.


NOTE: < snip >

"More than 750 Times"

This is the only Cycles Claim in this Operators Manual.

However note the HIGH Capacity Claim with the NEW jacked up LiOH.H20 Levels.

This seems to be the first time in Internet History that this Important Data has ever been pointed out.

There are plenty of Great Things about the NiFe cells that need to be looked at properly and appreciated.

Absolutely no need for lies, half truths, myths or fish wives tales.

---

Changhong Operators Manual


NOTE: Prior to Jan. 2008

with 75% Lower LiOH.H2O Levels at typical USA Temperatures than after the

Jan. 2008 Operators Manual above.


4.8 Lifetime

Life time: The number of full charge and full discharge cycles will be about 1000 times depending

on proper maintenance > > > > including electrolyte replacement when needed. < < < <

Much longer lifespans can be expected if regular discharges are less than 20%

where the number of charge / discharge cycles will be between

> > > > 5000 to 8000 cycles. < < < <

The end of the lifespan is defined by operation at 70% capacity or lower

> > > > after replacing the electrolyte. < < < <

In many applications the battery will still be very useful for many years or decades beyond this.

NOTE: "In many applications" can mean many things including Capacity of Less than

70% being acceptable.

---

Stop the Madness.

Let's deal with Deep Cycle Storage Battery Truths

so we can quickly implement simple, effective, high tech techniques

and simple new procedures to create incredibly cost effective

hybrid storage battery systems.


<end of snip>


Bill Blake

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

SolaRevolution wrote: »

I think I'm getting lost in the translation. What ar they trying to say?

Are they saying "should" to give directions or to assert minimum expectations?

"During the life time, the average discharge capacity should not be less than nominal capacity" ?


Alex

You have to enjoy a good riddle to even bother with Ni-Fe cells Alex. With different authors at different times
and different view points it becomes up to you to find a median understanding that you can believe in.

It's a fight to advance the knowledge base in this Ni-Fe game and you never know where a little piece might come from.
After covering a few strength's, weaknesses, different charging strategies, etc. it will be time to jump to why I'm actually
interested in a hybrid Ni-Fe Cell system utilizing a marriage of battery technology that works with opposing weakness and strength.
The way it really is. Not how some folk lore or sales angle paints it.
You may laugh it off or you may decide, hey this is really it. Who knows.

It's a long drawn out story best taken a bit at a time especially when (at this point) most forums will have
little interest in Ni-Fe. Problems of the past will not be the focus point.
We will have to swing into a few Lead Acid studies as well or else the punch lines will not add up.


Bill Blake

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

This is from an old (1995-ish) NREL publication (it may be available online line, but I did not spend a lot of time looking for it):

[h=3]NiFe Battery Downside Characteristics:[/h]Low cell voltage.
Very heavy and bulky.
The low reactivity of the active components limits the high rate performance
of the cells. They cells take a charge slowly, and give it up slowly.
Low coulombic efficiency, typically less than 65% *** (ed - this is the killer about NiFe batteries. You will lose 35% or more just in the energy used to charge/discharge them)
Steep voltage drop off with state of charge
Low energy density.
High self discharge rate.
More pronounced Hydrogen gassing than Nickel-Cadmium

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

Sadly, because of the toxic cadmium content, Ni-Cad is out.

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

mike90045 wrote: »

Sadly, becasue of the toxic cadimunm content, Ni-Cad is out.

In 20 years when the battery is dead, recycle it. It isn't going to poison you between now and then.

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

offgridman wrote: »

You have got to have your head in the sand or you do not know much about who has been importing nickel iron cells in the USA since 1995. BeUtilityFree, Inc (formally UtilityFree) has "known" the China nickel iron cell since 1995. No other company can claim that and cannot simple because they can't. You seem to believe that there is some 'Mystery" surrounding he nickel iron cell but the fact is that because this company has been importing the cells for such a long time they have just recently upped there warranty to 15 years! In fact right now they have the best warranty in the battery industry (including any lead acid battery)

You are 100% correct that the cells that China makes are NOT the exact same as the original nickel iron cells, but if they can last as long as the originals they great. Only time will tell but so far it is looking very promising. Beutilityfree has China cells that they have in their possession that where imported in 1995 and are still working fine after one electrolyte change. They are a 500 Ah 24V battery set being used right now in an off grid system.

Many of the myths our there keep floating around but soon evaporate once you get your hands on a nickel iron battery. Why don't you buy a nickel iron battery set yourself and then find out first hand their operating characteristics. What are you afraid of big Bill? You seem to know everything yet know nothing because you have actually never owned any China nickel iron cells, correct?

Let's see what the Ni-Fe Battery Guarantee actually looks like. OK?
Are there any 'Strange' Conditions that would give a reasonable person 'Pause' ?

Be Utility Free Inc.

(As of 8/1/11 before Mike90045 received his large set of Ni-Fe Cells.)

BeUtilityFree, Inc.

Renewable Energy Products (Solar Electric • Solar Heating • Wind Electric) Energy Efficiency Products

• Design • Engineering • Consultation

Effective date: August 1, 2011

BeUtilityFree™, Inc. guarantees to the original user that all Nickel Iron NEW pocket plate batteries will be free from defects in material and workmanship for (12)
12 years after placed in service and to produce 80% of the manufacturers amp hour capacity rating. User should immediately report any possible defects in writing
to BeUtilityFree™, Inc. vis email (office@beutilityfree or USPS.

All batteries claimed to be defective must be returned to BeUtilityFree™, Inc. for evaluation. During the first year from date of shipment we will pay for return shipping
if cell (s) are found to be defective.

After first year customer pays all shipping expenses both ways.
Allow up to 3 weeks for examination of batteries.
No replacement batteries will be sent unless bad cells are received first. No exceptions.

Shipping instructions:

1. Fluid must be emptied from all cell(s) and a small electrolyte sample - 4 onces

-sent separately from at least 4 cells via USPS or along with the battery shipment to BUF.

Cell(s) can be shipped via USPS, UPS ground, FedEx ground or DHL Express.

2. Package must be packaged according to shippers standard practices for the weight of the cell.
Please use proper packing material that will not crush under the weight of the cell.

We suggest bubble wrap as the best packing material.

3. Proper filling out of BOL must be done according to Hazadious material laws at the time BOL

is filled out. If you need a sample nickel iron BOL we can send it to you.

4. Must be sent in GLASS containers and NOT plastic.

The following conditions must be met or guarantee is NULL and VOID:

1. The batteries are used in a home power system or approved system by BeUtilityFree™,Inc.™ engineering department.

2. Batteries cannot be installed in an environment that exceeds 80° F on a continual basis,

such as a box in the sun.

3. The batteries are handled, stored and installed in accordance with the instruction manual

sent via email, USPS or shipped with the batteries.

Proper maintenance records should be kept regarding temperatures, specific gravity,

cell voltages, and battery carbonate content on a yearly basis for each cell.

4. Water level must be maintained at the recommended level at all times.

Only distilled or de-ionized water can be used to replace fluid level. Rain water,

city water, well water or sea water will void warranty.

5. Warranty applies only to original owner and does not cover any battery that must be repaired
or replaced due to misuse, accidents, negligence, tampering, earthquakes or acts of God.

6. All battery returns must be followed by a Return Authorization Number (RAN) issued by BeUtilityFree™, Inc. In writing to the customer service department.
Customer is responsible for costs and proper packaging of battery (s). All batteries must be returned to us before guarantee is honored.
Shipping instructions will be sent with the RAN.

7. Battery terminals must be TIGHT and CLEAN to assure no arcing occurs during heavy charging
and discharging of battery.

8. Electrolyte changes areNOT covered under this warranty. If battery electrolyte becomes con taminated (usually by having the potassium hydroxide turn into
potassium carbonate with the

first 10 years then the fluid should be replaced by the owner and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period.

If battery is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim
then the claim will not be honored.

It is the clients responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content.
BUF will test your electrolyte for a reasonable fee if you send us a sample.

9. Some method must be made to allow minimal intake of carbon dioxide from the air.

Potas sioum hydroxide has an affinity to draw carbon dioxide form the air into the cells
electro lyter over time.

Once the cell draws enough electrolyte out of the air and into the electrolyte
the electrolyte will become saturated with carbon dioxide and the electrolyte turns eventually
into potassium carbonate.

Once that happens the cell loses its battery capacity

and you will notice a loss of capacity in your battery bank.
It has been our experience so far that nor mally you will need an electrolyte change every 7-10 years.

The following methods are acceptable to retard the electrolyte from drawing in carbon dioxide
into the air:

1. A layer of
special oil can be placed on the top of the electrolyte cells. The layer of float oil
The layer of oil must be at least 1/4" thick. (6.25 mm) .

This oil can be purchased from BUF.

If any other oil is used form another company than the warranty is void

unless we have full details of the oil you plan to use and get a letter of approval from BUF.

2. A cap with a ball of some sort that seals the cap opening.

3. A self watering system

4. BUF system (currently in development developed) that was taken from a patented system
that has since expired

10. If defective during the first year we will replace free of charge. The second through the tenth years will be warranted on a pro-rated basis.

The pro-ration formula is Credit = "original purchase price X - 1st year date of Shipment.

The registration form is filled out within (15) fifteen days of receiving batteries and sent to:

Att: Customer Service
BeUtilityFree™, Inc.
14149 County Rd. 26
Fort Lupton, CO. 80621


It's actually 'little Bill. Remember that Ned! :-)

"If battery is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim
then the claim will not be honored."

Oooohhh. We need to watch that electrolyte Mike!

"4. Must be sent in GLASS containers and NOT plastic."

If plastic is good enough to form the actual battery cases, what's the fear here, I asks?

"If any other oil is used form another company than the warranty is void <snip>"

Ooohhh. Will you be 'easy on us' ? I feel there will be a LOT of Electrolyte Replacements COMING SOON!

"It is the clients responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content.
BUF will test your electrolyte for a reasonable fee if you send us a sample".

What's a reasonable fee when old John will be in his 70's long before the guarantee runs out.
He may not be able to compete with Changhong Batteries themselves who are quietly testing
cutting his throat for more USA sales - right now.

Then you have a new Competitor telling everybody they should Discharge the Ni-Fe Cells to 85% DOD
(in writing). We all have eyes and can see that statement is nothing but a desperate attempt to put a dollar in his pocket based
on false fabrications made on THE BACK of his 'Brother Solar Man'.

YEAH - I just want to jump right into this Ni-Fe Deal without getting to the bottom of it first ;-)
Who cares about well over 25 grand (in advance) going to one of two guys
Dime-ing each other to death on the Internet. Naturally you can see it in writing.

Bill Blake


P.S. There is just too much for me to keep going on this Guarantee.

I do appreciate having things sent to me in writing! All that he said, she said isn't the little Bill way :-)

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

waynefromnscanada wrote: »

Extremely interesting "warranty"!
Are they totally insane?
I would be if I ever bought their product!

It is a rather Wild Ni-Fe Document.

What say you "offgridman"?

Since your here with us and watch what I say - Defend Yourself.

Soon I would like to look at an AD where Brandon Williams of Iron Edison Batteries

Lays trash to ALL Lead Acid Storage Batteries.

Yes I have an interest in Ni-Fe (for possible special applications) but have liked the Lead Acid batteries

from the Rolls Surrette Batteries Company (The Grandson's) for quite some time now.

See the 5000 Series Life Cycles Chart (at the bottom of the page) and compare it to Ni-Fe Cells.

From 50% DOD to 100% DOD the Rolls Batteries STOMPS the Ni-Fe Batteries.

AFTER ELECTROLYTE CHANGES according to the Ni-Fe Gospel of Changhong.

http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/specifications-renewable

You have to be 'easy with Ni-Fe' - not rough like little Bill was with Ned in the Clint Eastwood movie 'Unforgiven'. :-)

Brandon Williams and I have exchanged many Ni-Fe emails and I have provided key Ni-Fe information to him in the past.
John and I also run a whole lot of Ni-Fe stuff back and forth.

However I don't like the Jive I now see getting pushed by Brandon on his 'Brother Solar Man.'
There is just no gentle way to say it. Jive is a bit gentle of a word in this case to be honest with you.

Earlier tonight I sent both John D'Angelo "offgridman" and Brandon Williams the material (the AD)
that I wish to Post here. Wanted Brandon to have plenty of time to get ready to Defend Himself.

His AD is called:

'Understanding the 20 Year Lead Acid Warranty'

Where Brandon attacks Lead Acid Batteries and claims the Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries should be run into the ground

to 85% DOD (85% DEAD) and they kind of Likes it :-)

Brandon claims in this Fairy Tale that every time you 'DO Your Ni-Fe Cells' like this for 7 to 10 years

You just keep changing the Electrolyte and they are LIKE NEW AGAIN for another 7 to 10 years.

It like FREE CANDY for one and all.

Long as you put thousands of dollars in his pocket - anything is possible. It kills me - it really does.

If ONLY Changhong Batteries themselves could believe a word of that Ni-FE Ad.

Big Money WOE to anyone that buys into this story.

Let's see how long that Electrolyte really lasts.

MANY Old Timers actually changed the Ni-Fe Electrolyte every year or even every 8 months with extreme usage.
Even 50% DOD in some cases got a GOOD flush job and a CHANGE in one year.
Naturally I have some reliable accounts from how they did it in the early 1900's in writing before saying anything.

Word is Ni-Fe really will last for decades and decades IF you NEVER let that carbonate DO whatever it does to the cell plates.
I believe them. With work, lots of expense and no fairy tales you have a real survival instrument there.

Between the Secrets of the Ancients and Modern Chinese Technology there can be a place for these Ni-Fe cells but
the nasty, arrogant USA Reagent Grade, ACS Certified, Lithium Hydroxide people forced me to come up with an Amended

'Theory of Battery-tivity' on 5/5/12.

I can now cut the overpriced Lithium Hydroxide Mugs out completely - if need be.
I actually like the KOH guys.
The project that I am involved with just demands a solution. Has no real favorites.

When Mike Drops the Dime on his first Ni-Fe Carbonate Test findings to you - Much will be revealed.
There should be some serious shock and awe. Even RIGHT NOW. Get that check book ready for Freddy.

However the huge problem is the cheap, sub grade LiOH.H20. This is really Looming Large now that China decided to jack the LiOH up by 400%.

China says that not only did the Ni-Fe Capacity and Efficiency go up but the
Self Discharge rate went down. They seemed real pleased with jacking up the LiOH.

Unfortunately the Titration Tests 'Diamond John' sells for 180 bucks are not slick enough to pick up
the Lithium Carbonate - the silent killer of a beautiful battery technology.

The tests just look for Potassium Carbonate.
We will get it all figured out a bit at a time.
But Figure on plenty of electrolyte changes and plenty of GOOD LiOH if you plan on playing to win.
This Ni-Fe is a Rich Man's Game from start to the 180 dollar test kit to the refills to all the distilled water
(but wait - most Distilled Water Tests Acidic).

So your feeding yet more CO2 into the batteries because you didn't know it was in your Money Water.

Don't worry we will beat the whole riddle with innovative solutions - a little at a time.


Bill Blake

Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

techntrek wrote: »

In 20 years when the battery is dead, recycle it. It isn't going to poison you between now and then.

]
Problem is you really don't know that. Any time you are dealing with liquid the potential for a spill is there. I have seen more than one set of brand new FLA batteries break when they were subject to sub-zero temperatures and had become discharged over a period of weeks to several months unattended. Using redundant containers certainly helps. There is also the potential for explosion to breach containment.
Very low toxicity is one thing I like about the NiFe batteries.

Yes Mike is still posting...