Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

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  • Utana
    Utana Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #512
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Well last month was my first month using the heat for my mini-split. Awesome! It seems to be even better than the cooling, warms up more space than the air conditioner cooled. And the best part is I am 1/3 off my electricity bill, just like I was for the summer months. Very happy with my machine. Looking forward to hopefully getting another one for our 2nd floor sometime next year.

    Kelly
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  • firerescue712
    firerescue712 Solar Expert Posts: 95 ✭✭
    #513
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    We are looking into getting a mini-split. Seeing the more recent reviews on the Sanyo's, what other brands are you using? Do they heat and cool? Or just do one or the other better? Finding a local installer that is familiar with one is another issue in the South. Thank you for any and all input. Merry Christmas to all!
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #514
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    firerescue712 wrote: »
    We are looking into getting a mini-split. Do they heat and cool? Or just do one or the other better?

    A mini-split can be either just an AC or a full heat pump with both heating and cooling. The two models from one manufacturer may even look identical from the outside but have different plumbing inside. You will not have the option of domestic hot water heating that some conventional ACs may offer.

    They will be more efficient that conventional AC when powered by PV and to some extent even when grid powered.

    When the full heat pump system is used for heating, it will be comparable to or more efficient that a ducted heat pump, but will only be available as air source, not ground or water source.

    For heating, any heat pump will be the preferred way to heat from PV over resistance heating, but local conditions will determine whether propane is more or less expensive. Natural gas, if available, will be the cheapest. Run the blower from RE.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #515
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    firerescue712 wrote: »
    We are looking into getting a mini-split. Seeing the more recent reviews on the Sanyo's, what other brands are you using? Do they heat and cool? Or just do one or the other better? Finding a local installer that is familiar with one is another issue in the South. Thank you for any and all input. Merry Christmas to all!

    Sanyo has been taken over by Panasonic. Mitsu, Fujitsu, Daikin, LG, & Samsung are some popular brands..
    I've got a couple of older Sanyo units and they work pretty well. Be sure get a heat and cool model.
    (Unless you have cheap gas heat).
    You also want to compare the SEER # of the units you look at. Anything over a SEER of 20 is real good..
    Make sure you are only looking at Inverter tech units. Non-inverter units are cheaper,
    but your power bills will be much larger. (unless you live in a very mild climate).
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,022 ✭✭✭✭
    #516
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Mitsubishi here. Great for cooling, but not enough extra solar watts for heating so far (lots of wood, and it's not too cold). It is fun on the odd day when the system can support it, to feel free heat filling the house from the mini-split.
    Ralph
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  • Utana
    Utana Solar Expert Posts: 32 ✭
    #517
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Ours is a Mitsubishi too (SEER 23, 12000 BTU). We are on grid so don't have the issues with running the system on limited power. I'd like to get some solar panels eventually, but right now its more cost effective to put our money and time into things that will cut electricity usage, so ultimately we won't need as many solar panels. Hopefully this winter we will install the radiant barriers in the rest of our attic area (did some last winter), and then install another mini split for our upstairs this spring. Thinking of Fujitsu this time around, just to mix it up.

    We are in Atlanta, and I'll agree it is hard finding a contractor familiar with these units in the South. They are not popular down here at all. Many of the companies that have them won't let you buy and do any of the installation work yourself, and having a contractor install it costs twice as much as installing it yourself. We finally managed to find a guy on craig's list. He is from Europe and installed 100s of them overseas. He was also very reasonably priced compared to the other contractors. Charged us $170 to flush the lines, hook them up, check out our self-install, and sign off on our system. The other contractors we called wanted more around $400 to do that. There are good people out there, even here in the south.

    The only down side is Mitsubishi knows I purchased my unit separately, so realizes I did the install myself. I think the warranty is voided because of that alone. My AC contractor says we can buy our next unit through him and he will let us buy it at a cost competitive with the cost I can purchase it on line. He will let us do most of the install, then come out to hook up the lines like last time, so it shouldn't cost us any more but we will be good with our warranty.

    Kelly
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #518
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    It got down to 1 deg F this morning and the Den Sanyo was still putting out a lot of warm air.
    But the living room Sanyo had too many sq ft to heat and it went over 10A and reset about 5AM.
    After it restarted, I checked the output and it stayed around 70 to 80F. (Den was doing 98F).

    Dropped to 19C in the living room during the 10A reset, so I turned on a 900W (3000 BTUh) space heater.
    That seemed to work with the LR Sanyo and the main areas stayed around 19 to 21C all night.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=2917&stc=1&d=1359033081

    WOBURN WEATHER CENTER - WU Station History

    The Den is small (18x16) http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/NCL/9784_9784.jpg
    but has a window and wide French doors into the main house.
    So, the heat from the Den flows into the rest of the house.
    Still, I was pleased to see the DIY repaired unit pouring out nice heat when it was between 1 & 9 deg F outside..

    I wasn't real sure these older units would work very well under 8deg F.
    Plus, I was concerned about the repaired unit. But, they seem to be pretty good down to Zero..

    Being warm this morning was a nice birthday present.. I'm 67 today! :) Still kickin!
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #519
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Remind me XRinger, what size is the unit in your den, and the size of the unit in your living room?
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #520
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Both units are 24k and their heating spec is 36k.. We didn't really need something that large in the den,
    but the old broken outdoor unit was just sitting there not being used..
    My wife wanted to heat our hard-to-heat Den.. It works really well..

    Just a bit on the large size.. :p
    downpout.jpg
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #521
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Interesting that they are the same size but were outputting different air temps. I figured two sizes would explain that difference.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #522
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Interesting that they are the same size but were outputting different air temps. I figured two sizes would explain that difference.

    The range of output in BTUh varies with indoor/outdoor temperatures.
    The motor speeds of the compressor and the outdoor fan motor vary over a large rpm range.
    That's how the Inverter type mini-splits get such great performance.
    They only use the amount of power they need. (Whereas most older systems run at full power while on).
    http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/NCL/poweruse.jpg
    The nominal heating range is 4,400 BTUh to 29,000 BTHh..

    If the house is warm enough and 4.400 BTUh (using 470 watts) is making it too hot, the unit will idle at 15 or 20 watts.

    http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f147/Xringer/NCL/heatcap.jpg
    If it's not too cold out, you can pump in 36,000 BTUh..
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #523
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Still heating and cooling exclusively with our Mitsu's. A 9K and a 12K 26/23 SEER respectively. Have had no issues (2nd heating season) here in MA. We have had ~1F nights this year.
    Still toasty.
    These work very well period. A mature technology IMO.
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #524
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    This year, the average temp for this billing (12/21/12 to 1/22/13) period was 31.6 °F
    Last year was about the same at 31 °F

    We used more kWh this year. 1256 vs 1250 last year. (This is our total NStar metered use)
    I assume that's due to the extra power used by the A7 ASHP hot water system installed last summer.

    1256 - 458(baseline) = 798 (That 458 was last June's use, our lowest of the year).

    798 kWh used in 32 days, was $122.21 paid for heating and hot water.
    That's pretty good for the worse month of the year.

    One bad side effect of using the A7 Airtap for hot water is an extra cold basement.
    During January, it was around 44F down there for a few weeks.
    I think we need a solar hot air system to take the chill out of the basement.
    If we could dump some BTUh down there during sunny days, it would help heat the whole house too.
    I've have to use a 1,000 watt space heater when I want to work in my basement shop.
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #525
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    We have matched our last years' bills tit for tat. So much so that it's getting boring tracking it....heh heh heh!
    I'm glad you made the plunge into the HPWH realm, Rich!

    Sister-in-law has a new Bo. He is a commercial plumber. He informed me that I am in for a world of hurt because ASHPWH's are just not feasible in our geographic area. Just figured I'd warn you after the fact like he did.....lol.

    I have the coal stoker in the basement at the ready for some serious dT intervention if need be. So far I'm still tripping over all of the bags of coal I purchased 2 years ago....
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #526
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    LOL! Guess he had an older instructor on HVAC day. The A7 Airtap works okay down to 44 F, but there is one problem.
    Cool air in that part of the basement. So, I rigged up a little 1kW space heater to run when the A7 is running.
    It counteracts the cold a bit. It feels more comfy down in that corner.. Might be placebo effect.. ;)

    I have a coal grate installed in my HS Tarm multi-fuel boiler.. But right now it's only used as a pre-injection water(PV) heater for the A7 ASHP.
    Untitled.png

    P1000711.jpg
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  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    #527
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    So, Rich, are you burning oil at all to heat your water now? I see the 75-85F preheat spelled out on the dwg. I've been meaning to follow the link you sent me. Figured I'd ask here.

    Nice setup!

    I'd have no quibbles building an insulated room in the basement for comfort. From what I remember you have a much larger basement than ours so I don't think there would be a problem interfering with the operation of your unit. My problem is the projects are strewn across and throughout the entire thing! LOL! Atleast the rusting no longer exists down there and in the warm months it's like a little slice of heaven for free....
    And I like free.....heh
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #528
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    That 75-85F preheat is what it was reading during the summer. Right now, it's about 65F on average.
    The ground water feeding it is around 44 to 46F today.
    I do run the oil burner on Sundays for 10 or 15 minutes.
    Just to make sure it's still working and to use some of the oil.
    At this rate, we might need a re-fill in 2020.. If they still sell it then. ;)

    I could not believe how cold the concrete walls were during the cold snap.
    At the floor level, it was 44F and 34F about 4 feet off the floor.

    I'm thinking some foam board over those walls might help a good bit.

    I'm still thinking that hot-air solar collector feeding the basement would be a real boost in comfort..
    http://www.mountainelectric.ca/hotbox/hotbox_1.pdf
    Or
    http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/DownSpout/DownSpout.htm#LowProfile

    Like the low profile model... :)
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #529
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    I don't know the answer--but watch for condensation and mold behind any added insulation. Wonder what the "approved" method is this day (no basement in my home--Just interesting to see what is out there).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #530
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)


    I'm thinking some foam board over those walls might help a good bit.

    Look into IKO board same name as the roof shingle maker, needs Poly on the concrete wall
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #531
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Hey Rich,
    Would the current limiter schematic you designed "the blue box" be useable with a DC voltage input? I would like to run the heat pump normal without current liming and only limit current when the DC sags from clouds. I bet you are getting some weather now! --Dave
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #532
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    Dave Sparks wrote: »
    Hey Rich,
    Would the current limiter schematic you designed "the blue box" be useable with a DC voltage input? I would like to run the heat pump normal without current liming and only limit current when the DC sags from clouds. I bet you are getting some weather now! --Dave

    The SCR control I'm using is a 555 timer chip, controlled by an AC amp probe.
    http://ecorenovator.org/forum/appliances-gadgets/1490-diy-230vac-adjustable-power-limiter-4.html
    The AC amp probe has an adjustable detect level. Mine are set for 10A, so my Sanyos can't use more than about 2.4 kW.

    What's the PV voltage level you want to detect?

    It almost seems like you would want to use a DC amp probe measuring the PV amperage.
    When it fell below a certain threshold, then power to the HP would be cut.?.

    Yeah, we got about 2 feet for snow. Spent a lot of the day cleaning it up.
    One of my Sanyos had a snow drift build up behind the outdoor unit..
    It blocked about 60% of the coil's air input area. I hit it with a leaf blower
    and got most of the snow out of the way, but It's been hours,
    and it's still trying to completely defrost itself.
    The Den Sanyo is working fine. Not as much blowing snow back there.
    It's been under 20F all dang day and now it's dropping lower!!
    http://pauland.net/wxdaily.php Going down to 3F in the morning.. :(
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #533
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Cool times in Woburn ! Do you have "people" to shovel that stuff or do you just wait it out?

    I am looking for a second level of protection for 24 and 48 volt battery systems. Currently I use the inverters aux out to shut the unit down and restart when the pv catches up the battery voltage.

    Not really looking at AC current and limiting it like you are doing. But maybe I should! There are other aux circuits in the charge controllers and they could switch in your current limiter if battery voltage gets really low like 25v or 50v on 24/48v systems.

    This would be the kind of thing you set when you leave home. I really should retire so this is not an issue. Soon!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #534
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    We have two old people to move snow.. My wife helps me! It was a bit deep for the snow thrower, but it worked pretty well.
    We finished up this afternoon. That stuff was pretty heavy.. My old bones can't take much more of New England.

    It sounds like your Aux controls are doing the job.
    I'm only using these 10A AC limiters because my Sanyos are too stupid to conserve power..
    They just go crazy sometimes and start sucking down too many kW.
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #535
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    Not sure if this model has been mentioned before on this thread, this appears to be a great 120 volt replacement to the now-discontinued Sanyos. http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/M09CH.html Friedrich MO9CH, great SEER @ 22 which is better than the Sanyo. Cheaper too, below $900. This model is A/C only but Friedrich has heat pump versions.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #536
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    techntrek wrote: »
    Not sure if this model has been mentioned before on this thread, this appears to be a great 120 volt replacement to the now-discontinued Sanyos. http://www.ajmadison.com/cgi-bin/ajmadison/M09CH.html Friedrich MO9CH, great SEER @ 22 which is better than the Sanyo. Cheaper too, below $900. This model is A/C only but Friedrich has heat pump versions.

    I looked over their line and I'm not too impressed. Since I would want 24k BTUh with at least the 21 SEER I got with my old model Sanyos.
    http://www.friedrich.com/products/residential/built-in/ductless-split-systems/wall-mounted/model-specifications
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #537
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    XRinger wrote: »
    I looked over their line and I'm not too impressed. Since I would want 24k BTUh with at least the 21 SEER I got with my old model Sanyos.
    http://www.friedrich.com/products/residential/built-in/ductless-split-systems/wall-mounted/model-specifications

    The LG at your favorite Pex supply looks really good at 28 SEER and 26 SEER for the 1 ton unit. Too small for you but
    the tracked solar strategy works really well even in huge houses as the most a 1 ton will use is 1,500 watts heating and 1300 or cooling. Supply that power at the days extremes and you are in the cat birds seat.:cool:
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #538
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    If I lost one of my Sanyos, I could use one of those smaller LG units in my Den and keep a 24k Sanyo for the main house.
    Having 24k in the Den is over-kill.

    Got a few defrost cycles last night and this morning. Snow drifts on the outdoor units.
    Plus, blowing snow gets sucked in and blocks up the coils.

    First day of Spring.. Getting a little sun this morning, before the clouds roll in again, after lunch..
    2013-03-20095122_zpscdd5266b.jpg
    My 500w tracker array is currently locked on center..
    Had to tie it down during a big storm, and just left the tracking off, since then.. It still keeps the back-up bank charged.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #539
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    As long as the Weber is ready your priorities are good with me!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #540
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)
    XRinger wrote: »
    If I lost one of my Sanyos, I could use one of those smaller LG units in my Den and keep a 24k Sanyo for the main house.
    Having 24k in the Den is over-kill.

    Got a few defrost cycles last night and this morning. Snow drifts on the outdoor units.
    Plus, blowing snow gets sucked in and blocks up the coils.

    First day of Spring.. Getting a little sun this morning, before the clouds roll in again, after lunch..
    2013-03-20095122_zpscdd5266b.jpg
    My 500w tracker array is currently locked on center..
    Had to tie it down during a big storm, and just left the tracking off, since then.. It still keeps the back-up bank charged.

    Would the current limiter schematic you designed "the blue box" be useable with a DC voltage input? I would like to run the heat pump normal without current liming and only limit current when the DC sags from clouds. I bet you are getting some weather now
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  • XRinger
    XRinger Solar Expert Posts: 529 ✭✭✭
    #541
    Re: Sanyo mini split AC (inverter/variable speed)

    The generic type of 5V power supply I am using to power these 'Blue Boxes' runs on 100 to 240 Vac..
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/170730551962

    But because of the way they are designed, they will also run off DC voltage in the same range.
    I have tested a couple of them down to 50VDC and they worked okay (with light loads).
    If your PV voltage is less than 240Vdc, you could try one out.

    Not sure where it would 'sag', I think the DC would have to be pretty low.
    That's something you could test pretty easily. Won't cost you much.

    ~~~
    The 'Blue Box' I'm using Indoors, has it's little power supply plugged into the 120AC via X10 appliance module.
    That allows me to use X10 commands to shut down Sanyo #1 by remote control. (Saves me crankcase heater power during the summer).

    If I was running a controller, that could see the sun (DC sag), it could signal the X10 to turn off the Sanyo..

    ~~~
    The +5Vdc PS I'm using outdoors (Sanyo #2) is plugged right into the 240Vac that runs the Sanyo..
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