Demonstration of Generator Support
Comments
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Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Chris just about every thing you say is correct but just a couple of points
In Europe and Uk Diesel is about 20% cheaper that gas (petrol)
Plus in most EU countries we can buy Red diesel (normal road fuel with a die) for off road use such as Tractors, Fishing Vessels, Farm equipment and generators.
This is taxed less than road use diesel and can be upto 25% cheaper that normal diesel, ( hence the red die to catch motorist evading tax !
This makes diesel for generators up to 40% less than gas.
A fact that being on the other side of the pond you wouldnt know of or care any way.
But Ive been to task on small modern diesel engines before on here, of which we have in abundance over here which are an apparent rarity in the states, so your comment
Great strides have been made in improving the thermal efficiency of spark ignition engines over the last 20 years while the thermal efficiency of diesel technology has not improved very much in the last century. Im sorry but this is so so so out of date.
Most cars sold in Europe now are diesel engines from about 1400 cc upwards. Using direct injection technology, they are extremly powerful have no lag and extremely fuel efficient.
A family sedan 1600cc diesle engine will typically have around 120 bhp, 6 speed and return 75 mpg driven economically.
You put a Typical modern 16v 1600cc petrol against its sibling diesel and you wil get easily 70% more miles per gallon in favor of the diesel. whathever the manufacturer. With equal or more break horse power !!
Even the majority of Mercedes, BMW, Ford, GM sell mainly diesels. if you are lucky enough to have a company vehicle over here 99% chance it wil be diesel, The cost about $3000 more that an equivilant gas guzzler but reduced maintainace, far greater fuel economy and cheaper fuel make them a no brainer on this side of the pond at least. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
For what it's worth, I worked on direct-inject diesels from John Deere that were made 40+ years ago. But diesels have improved nonetheless. Take a look at a new diesel truck when it is running. You can't tell it from gasoline: no smell, no noise, no smoke. Surprised the heck out of me.
But as usual, not every company puts out the latest in technology no matter what the field. And the better stuff will of course cost more money. In Europe where fuel is très expensive there is more incentive to go with top tech engines for any/all uses. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Moving on I note with interest from Bill
Finding any good quality/efficient/low power genset (especially configurable for remote start without spending $500 to $800 for the privileged) is tough.
An electric start retrofit for $800 on a $1,000 eu2000i or a Honda SM4000SX for $2,300 +s&h...
-Bill
Some of you guys might find this site interesting, bearing in mind the above
http://www.gencontrol.co.uk/
Made in UK not that heavy so should be cheap to post to US and on ebay this unit sold by the designer manufacturer
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automatic-diesel-generator-control-unit-AECM104FKS-REM-START-/320965374117?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Tools_Generators_ET&hash=item4abb06f0a5
Sells for approx $130 he has many models worth a wander for some.
Bill we all fine, thanks for asking hope things are good with you, I occasionally chat with Niel on MNS forum, weve come a long way in last seven years in the next 6 months should have our new off grid Ford Transit Van ( Turbo Diesel) fully kitted out for Installs , and also our new Off Grid Solar Store - Workshop finished. Both are here in real life but need finishing off for photographs.
Compared to the image and reality of Spain being in the doldrums, we are very busy, with Pan European sales and installs now covering a 350 mile radius from home. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportA fact that being on the other side of the pond you wouldnt know of or care any way.
Well, in fact, my wife is Swedish and we go to Europe all the time. I know all about it.Great strides have been made in improving the thermal efficiency of spark ignition engines over the last 20 years while the thermal efficiency of diesel technology has not improved very much in the last century. Im sorry but this is so so so out of date.
No, the basic thermal efficiency of the diesel cycle only had one basic improvement since Rudolph Diesel patented it, and that was with the advent of turbocharging. Don't mistake thermal efficiency for fuel efficiency or BSFC of a specific design - they're two different things. And here again, after working for Cummins as a mechanical engineer for 19 years there's not a lot that escapes me on this.
There's been advancements made in reducing smoke and particulate emissions, mainly thru computer controlled fuel systems. And some advancements made in reducing combustion noise, mainly thru the use of computer controlled pilot injection. And some advancements in mechanical efficiency by using different bore/stroke ratios, and in some engines even low pressure lubrication systems. But the basic thermodynamics of the diesel cycle remains unchanged for the last 100 years.
Edit:
As a note on diesel fuel prices in the US vs overseas, diesel is more expensive in the US because of the way refiners are set up. Gasoline is their main product and diesel fuel is secondary. So it's a supply and demand issue. With the advent of ULSD the price of diesel fuel went higher yet - at current prices it's $1.10 more per gallon here than gasoline is. The price of off-road dyed-red fuel varies state to state in difference from on-road fuel. It depends on how much state highway tax is not charged on the off-road fuel - in the State of Wisconsin the difference is 50 cents/gallon. But that still puts off-road diesel at 60 cents more per gallon than gasoline. So gasoline remains a better buy in our area for price/BTU of energy content in the fuel.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Not arguing with thermal efficiency or thermal dynamics point is in last 40 years the diesel engine has gone from noise y, smelly, polluting , low powered, heavy lumps to the most efficient, powerful, quiet, clean economical power plants of choice for the Internal combustion Engine. whether by electronics, turbos or injection systems , internal design. It has evolved beyond recognition. Real life benefits for the end user which he or she can here, see, feel and have more money left over in there pocket.
Has not the thermal efficiency of the Spark engine not been achieved using the same technologies. Plus the fact that its initial thermal efficiency design was so poor that technology has easily improved it. The fact that Rudolph got it about just right with thermal effciency from day one, does not detract from the 21st Century Modern diesel is a much more economical product fuel wise and reliability wise than todays Spark Gas conterparts.
Plus even though Honda make some small fantasic IC petrol engines which are reliable and quiet. it would be an exception to the rule that they would last the hours of a simple single cyclinder diesel, running at 1500 rpm against a unit screaming away at 3000 rpm plus.
Im not mistaking thermal efficiency for fuel efficiency, Im just choosing fuel efficiency over it !
The fact that motor manufacturers choose to apply a premium cost to have the diesel variant over the petrol equivalant, is not that it cost any more to produce but that it offers
advantages in cost savings across the board for the consumer who is prepaired to pay such and save money in the long term, with lower servicing, mpg and residual market values.
But that applies here in EU and not in the USA where the small engined modern diesel is a rare species !
At the present time ! -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
In the US, the problem has been particulates (which plug up catalysts) and sulfur in fuel ("poisons" the catalyst). The current diesel (I think) need both a particulate filter/trap to get the particulates (can be a maintenance nightmare for converted older trucks) and removing the sulfur caused problems because the sulfur was helping to lubricate the fuel injection pumps (about 4 tank fulls of low sulfur and our little Diesel Rabbit pump was pouring fuel out the shaft seals).
The issue with particulates (and smog regulations) has been a big issue here and why very few cars were available with diesel engines.
There is a "new" technology for automotive engines (and used on power plants, etc.) were they inject ammonia into the exhaust to break downs the NOx (always a problem with high temperature/fuel efficient engines).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reductionBeginning with diesel engines manufactured on or after January 1, 2010, the engines are required to meet lowered NOx standards for the US market. All of the heavy-duty engine (Class 7-8 trucks) manufacturers except for Navistar International and Caterpillar Inc. continuing to manufacture engines after this date have chosen to use SCR. This Includes Detroit Diesel (DD13, DD15, and DD16 models), Cummins (ISX, ISL9, ISB6.7, and ISC8.3 line), PACCAR, and Volvo/Mack. These engines require the periodical addition of Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF, a urea solution) to enable the process. DEF is available in a bottle from most truck stops, and some have put in bulk DEF dispensers near the Diesel Fuel pumps. Caterpillar and Navistar had initially chosen to use Enhanced Exhaust gas recirculation (EEGR) to comply with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) standards, but in July 2012 Navistar announced it would be pursuing SCR technology for its engines, except on the MaxxForce 15 which was to be discontinued.
A stock 2012 VW Passat TDI equipped with an SCR that fulfills emissions requirements in all 50 states set the world record for longest distance on one tank of clean diesel fuel May 11, 2012.[5]
And, I as recall, Chris is in the ice box region of the continental US--And from his previous posts, the gasoline powered Honda EM4000SX has proved to be the easiest to start and run in sub zero (oF) weather over both propane and diesel gensets.
-Bill "things keep-a-chang'n" B.Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportThe fact that motor manufacturers choose to apply a premium cost to have the diesel variant over the petrol equivalant, is not that it cost any more to produce but that it offers advantages in cost savings across the board for the consumer who is prepaired to pay such and save money in the long term, with lower servicing, mpg and residual market values.
The evolution of the automotive industry in the US (and Canada) has been an interesting one. When Europe was already using small lightweight vehicles, Americans were driving Cadillac Eldorados with 500 cubic-inch V-8's. Fuel remains artificially cheap here compared to other parts of the world. So Americans continue to have the highest per-capita consumption of petroleum products of anyplace on earth, and SUV's and other inefficient modes of transportation continue to sell.
While the personal transportation industry here has continued to use gasoline, commerce runs on diesel fuel. The government, always looking for ways to have bigger Christmas parties and get more money, realize that if they raise the taxes on gasoline making it more expensive, people just drive less and gasoline demand goes down. But the wheels of commerce have to run or the grocery shelves go bare so the heavy transportation industry is going to pay the price no matter what, or go out of business. Therefore both the Federal and State levels in the US tax diesel fuel more heavily than gasoline because they know it's a "sure bet" on Congress getting that big raise that they voted themselves to get. You have to pay the Federal Excise Tax on diesel fuel no matter if it's on-road or off-road. So the consumer loses, the government wins.
And that is the biggest reason that diesel fueled vehicles here in the US are not going to be very popular. With gasoline at $3.09/gallon and diesel fuel at $4.19/gallon people would have to be nuts to buy a diesel car over a gas one because the cost per mile is higher with diesel power. You can't make up that difference in price with better fuel economy with a diesel.
There are quite a few small diesel engines here in the US - but again the gasoline engines are more cost effective. Honda powers like 95% of the rental industry because they built engines that last as long as diesels, the fuel is cheaper, they cost half of what a comparable diesel costs, they start easier, run quieter, don't vibrate like a paint shaker, and they don't break. You go to a place that rents out power equipment like power concrete trowels, and concrete saws, and on and on, and just try to convince them that they should be using like Hatz diesels instead of Honda's. They'll laugh you off the place and tell you to come back when you grow a brain.
And finally, low rpm engines are not inherently longer-lived than high-speed engines. That's an old-wive's tale. The majority of the wear in an engine occurs during starting and warmup - not when it's running. High-speed engines have many advantages over low speed - the primary having a higher power density in a smaller and lighter package. And this is the reason some of the largest engine manufacturers on earth have gone to high-speed engines for applications like generator sets, mining trucks and marine:
http://cumminscommentary.com/2011/11/02/cummins-unveils-the-world%E2%80%99s-most-powerful-high-speed-diesel/
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Agree again, Hondas are the flavor of choice over here and UK for plant eqipment, start first pull,light weight,powerful compact size and quiet. But Im not polishing concrete or cutting blocks or lumping my genny in and out of my work van I have a Honda Inverter Clone 6 years old doing that .
Uk diesel is more expensive than gas because everyone moved over to diesels 15- 20 years ago, tax revenues fell, so the goverment fixed it as they do, will be that way here eventually.
Theres still plenty of Lister 650 750 rpm and 1500 rpm single pot diesls from the 60s,70s and eighties working day in day out over this side, and command a premium when the are sold. They do sound well !
Vehicles is EU pay road tax up to $300 a year based on CO2 emissions the best or lowest emitters cost is nothing on a sliding scale up to the max. Only the smallest petrol gas engines 1000 to 1300 cc,fall into no tax diesel fair much better.
So were a ocean apart have different goverment rules pushing different agendas , different climates, different power requirements ,
different taxes, Im not an mechanicl engineer or mechanic I know nothing of thermal efficiencies, I choose whats best for me and you for you, nobodies wrong its what circumstance and enviorments dictate, enjoyed the debate, signing off on it now
Nigel -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Increased use of diesel fuel by consumers has driven the price of it here above that or regular gasoline, whereas it used to be much cheaper.
The low vs. high RPM longevity issue came from people comparing industrial engines to automotive ones. Talk about comparing apples to grapefruit! People have tried to convince me that my favourite Oliver tractors' 6 cylinder 230 cu. in. engines were Chevy's. They weren't. Not by a long shot. Only the displacement and ignition equipment were the same.
A while back General Motors turned their 350 CID gas V-8's into diesels. They failed miserable. Engines simply are not interchangeable for type, use, and application. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Not going to wade in on the politics, but a couple of anecdotes. I had one of the few good 6.8 litre GM Diesels. Finally sold the truck at ~300k because it was so rusty my feet would get wet.
We used to pay $.11 for diesel, $.29 for regular. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportCariboocoot wrote: »A while back General Motors turned their 350 CID gas V-8's into diesels.
OMG, I had forgotten that those even existed, and life was good. Then you had to bring that up and ruin it
Yeah, that Olds 350 with a set of flat chamber heads and a Stanadyne pump strapped in between was worse than a disaster. And you'd think engineers would learn. But no, they don't. Go several years into the future to 2003 and Navistar came up with another one - the 6.0 in the Ford pickups. Ford sued Navistar over that deal and was going to go to Caterpillar to get an engine for their pickups. But they had a contract with Navistar and Navistar won the lawsuit, forcing Ford to continue using those confounded things. LOL!
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Yup. Know the Navistar diesel too. Son-in-law had a truck with one in it. Spent lots of money keeping it going. Ridiculous injection system operated by oil pressure. Whoever thought that up must have been suffering from a severe concussion at the time. :roll:
Of the diesels I've known personally my favourite was JD's direct injected 4 cylinder (as used in the 3020 and a number of other applications) and the Caterpillar 636 (as used in the Oliver 2255 and other applications).
Lots of bad engines over the years of all types in many things. You can build a really bad lawnmower engine, so you can certainly build a really bad generator engine or for any other use. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportWe used to pay $.11 for diesel, $.29 for regular.
Yeah, it used to be the same here. When I was in high school I had a 1969 Plymouth Roadrunner with a 426 Hemi in it. Bought it for only 800 bucks from a woman that got a divorce and she ended up with it in the divorce deal and put it up for sale. It got 10 mpg if I didn't hammer on it. And if I did hammer on it those two Carter 4 barrels dumped in gas like a couple of them Power Flush Toilets and it twisted the unibody so bad that sometimes the driver's door would pop open. But back then nobody cared because I could buy real 100 octane premium for it for 42 cents a gallon.
Remember the old Gas Wars that you'd see sometimes? I remember seeing gas for 14 cents/gallon in a couple towns that got those Gas Wars going in the old days. Those days are for sure gone because the government made Gas Wars illegal when they passed the law that requires gas stations to charge a minimum markup on gasoline. So then the Flying J truck stop sued and a Federal Judge ruled the law unconstitutional:
http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=9110
It only took a year and then they re-instated the law:
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/102159474.html
LOL! As time goes on, stuff gets more and more comical
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportCariboocoot wrote: »Yup. Know the Navistar diesel too. Son-in-law had a truck with one in it. Spent lots of money keeping it going. Ridiculous injection system operated by oil pressure. Whoever thought that up must have been suffering from a severe concussion at the time. :roll:
That's called HEUI (Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injection). You wouldn't believe who came up with it - Caterpillar. And they licensed it to Navistar. Cat used it in the 3116's and 3126's and didn't have any better luck with it than Navistar did.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Chris, you probably remember GM's infamous 2 cycle diesel too.
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Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportCariboocoot wrote: »Chris, you probably remember GM's infamous 2 cycle diesel too.
Oh yeah. I own two of 'em. I got a 3-53 in my log skidder and I got a 12V-71TTA, 900 hp in my chipper. One day when I was warming the chipper up my cell phone got stuck on Record somehow in my shirt pocket and I discovered later that it recorded this. I put it on YouTube and they wouldn't let me put just noise on there, so I had to take a picture of the chipper and put with it
[video=youtube_share;NywE2eXTUl0]
http://youtu.be/NywE2eXTUl0[/video]
When the chipper is eating a 3 foot diameter log on a still day you can hear that V-12 Detroit running 5 miles away and it blows two columns of pitch black smoke 500 feet in the air. There ain't no mufflers on it - just an elbow and a 1 foot length of pipe coming off each turbocharger.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Ok Chris, I'll bite. Why would you be chipping a 3' diam log? Chipping for pulp wood transportation? That's a crazy piece of equipment. It's a good thing you live in the back of beyond...neighbours might be a little testy if you were cleaning up after a little yard work with that chipper:grr
Ralph -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
The 2 cycle Detroits were a tried and true design that were used in thousands of machines, vehicles etc over the years. I had a number of trucks ith 8v nd 6v series. Running them at the right temp was critical.
T. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportWe used to pay $.11 for diesel, $.29 for regular.
And that, I'm sure, was per Gallon and not per litre! (I'm assuming that we're in roughtly the same age group
) -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportOk Chris, I'll bite. Why would you be chipping a 3' diam log? Chipping for pulp wood transportation? That's a crazy piece of equipment. It's a good thing you live in the back of beyond...neighbours might be a little testy if you were cleaning up after a little yard work with that chipper:grr
We burn chips in our outdoor wood boiler to heat the shop. And I sell chips to other people that have outdoor wood boilers. You can put a tender on a outdoor wood boiler and burn chips in it, so that instead of the boiler running very smokey and inefficient like most of them do, it only feeds chips to when it calls for heat so it can run very hot and burn clean. Outdoor wood boilers or hot water stoves are notoriously inefficient and burn a lot of wood to heat the area that they heat. But converted to a chip burner they will heat the same area on about 60% of the wood.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportAnd that, I'm sure, was per Gallon and not per litre! (I'm assuming that we're in roughtly the same age group)
I believe thqt was for an IMPERIAL GALLON,, (5/4 of a US Gal)!
T -
Re: Demonstration of Generator SupportThe 2 cycle Detroits were a tried and true design that were used in thousands of machines, vehicles etc over the years. I had a number of trucks ith 8v nd 6v series. Running them at the right temp was critical.
Those Detroits were used in just about everything - Oliver even built a tractor with one in it at one point. They pack a lot of power in a smaller lightweight unit, are as reliable as the day is long, and dirt cheap to rebuild at overhaul time. Their eventual demise was emission standards. But there are still thousands of them being used in railroad locomotives, ships, tugboats, generator and pump sets, drill rigs, logging equipment and you still even see one on the road in a truck from time to time.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Wish I had read this thread before buying 24 2 volt 1200 A.H. Lifeline Batteries. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Soggydog what is wrong with the Lifelines?
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I think he meant that if he could've used generator support instead, he could've gotten by with less batteries.
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Chris -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
That's what I thought too but he didn't flesh out the whole system he has, leaving a
behind.
KID #51B 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
West Chilcotin, BC, Canada -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I finally got the GFX 1312 today ( 22 days for delivery, un-real ), got it hooked up, I fired it up and set the Mate to Gen Support and set the Incoming AC limit to 5 Amps. Set the charger max to 5 amps. I have it on grid power, a cheesy set of jumper cables for the 12 V. I have it on 2 GC-2's so they drop off fairly fast with a big load. I first dumped a 900 w load on it, it was stable and was drawing 3.36 amps from the ac input and the rest from batteries, but as the battery voltage dropped the AC was rising up to 6.53 amps ( thats above the 5 amps max I set ). I then switched it to a 1500 W load. The AC amps in went up to 9.90, again way above the 5 amp max. The battery voltage had gone down to 11.6 v or so.
This is very preliminary and inclusive at this point, Tomorrow I'll get some real cables on it and get the Honda EU 2000 supplying the AC. I only have those 2 batteries here, but I'll hook up a charger to them and see if I can get the Voltage to hold. It had to be working since the batteries went down and the AC input increased. Why did it go above the max I set ?? Because it could on grid ?? The generator would have dropped out maybe. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
Got any pictures of the MATE display under the various circumstances?
I haven't ever looked at the GT gen support display. Not sure if it's the same as the FX version, which would be confusing under a gen support state. It reads LOAD AMPS, CHARGE AMPS, and TOTAL AMPS when AC IN is energized. It also sometimes does not meet the programmed numbers (I can pull about 2 Amps more than the limit set for my gen).
Seems to work, but how accurately ... -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I'll try to get some, I'd like it to be a fair test and with a set of # 10 Jumper cables it might not be ....lol. That is a lot to dump on it, but it should handle it, the inverter alone should. Let me get it set up right. I hate this to be a 100 posts, I ought to be able to pin it down.Cariboocoot wrote: »Got any pictures of the MATE display under the various circumstances?
I haven't ever looked at the GT gen support display. Not sure if it's the same as the FX version, which would be confusing under a gen support state. It reads LOAD AMPS, CHARGE AMPS, and TOTAL AMPS when AC IN is energized. It also sometimes does not meet the programmed numbers (I can pull about 2 Amps more than the limit set for my gen).
Seems to work, but how accurately ...
One thing I did notice is that it's a rampy kind of a increase in the Amp draw on the AC. Thats a good thing on a Honda EU 2000 as it will give the ECO throttle time to react to the increased demand. Thats been a major problem when a load sharply increases. -
Re: Demonstration of Generator Support
I find this in the GFX manual:
In the MATE system display, this feature is activated by the ac2/gen support menu item, located in the
ADVANCED menus. (See the MATE manual.)
Although the menu is titled “ac2 gen support”, it functions equally well whether the AC source is a
generator or the utility grid.
Choose between generator or grid criteria using the MATE’s ac transfer control menu. The default is grid.
The <GRID> and <GEN> soft keys will toggle between these respective options.
The default selection is on. It can be switched off using the <OFF> soft key. The MATE’s ac transfer
control menu must be selected to gen in order to do this. In current models, if ac transfer control is set to
grid, the support feature cannot be disabled.
But curiously no mention of "ac2 gen support" in the MATE manual. This must be the "unsupported" part of the function they mentioned. :roll:
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