Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

Photowhit
Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
in PV Installers Forum - NEC, Wiring, Installation #1
OK I'm doing a little prewiring and checking out things, drilling the holes and generally getting things ready to be installed Thursday. The first day with above freezing temps since i was ready(ish)

First the reason for adding the 6x6 junction box is I will have 3 classics hooked up to the E-Panel and i think it's the most practical way to do it. Yell stop if you have a better way! From my calc's I can't fit all the 4 and 6 gauge wire through1" conduit to do it with a string of 'T's(I'm not an electrician but I bet you can understand that)

So I'm going to use a 2" nipple made from connectors and a tiny piece of pipe, and I have a lock nut and insulating bushing. I think normally you would put a lock nut on either side of each box? What I'd like to do is tighten down the Insulated bushing and then tighten the lock nut from the other side of each box and just use one locknut from the middle out. Both boxes will be screwed into a mount board so they aren't going anywhere. The reason for this is to help, bend/wrap the wires back to the wall of the E-Panel so it won't project so far into the Panel making wiring inside as clean as possible.

Am I on solid ground or should I go ahead and put lock nuts on either side?

My intentions are to have 1 1" conduit going up out of the junction box serving 1 classic and 1 1" going out the side servicing 2 Classics branched off with a 'T' one going into the side of the far left one and one going into the bottom of the middle one. If I plan nicely I should get a nice stepped effect.

Don't listen to Queen and Please do "Stop Me Now" if you have some ideas.

My primer is drying so I have a little while before i dry test things, and won't make anything solid mounted until Thursday noon or so...
Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
- Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?
    Photowhit wrote: »
    First the reason for adding the 6x6 junction box is I will have 3 classics hooked up to the E-Panel and i think it's the most practical way to do it. Yell stop if you have a better way! From my calc's I can't fit all the 4 and 6 gauge wire through1" conduit to do it with a string of 'T's(I'm not an electrician but I bet you can understand that)

    From what I have seen of electrical work, I do not think that it is ever a good idea to use T's. Although since you will not be pulling the wires through them it might not be much of a problem. For wire the size of 4 gauge, I would use a Condolet, either an L or a Tee so that I could take the cover off to arrange the wires and the inside surfaces would be smooth.
    If there are not enough separate terminal lugs inside the ePanel for all of the wires, you should know that many terminal blocks are not allowed to be used with more than one wire per terminal.

    From what I have heard of support from Midnight, I would suggest that you ask them your question!
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Thanks Fizzy,

    I might post there tonight, just not as active a site as here, I had my master electrician friend's brother (lesser electrician) call be and say he thought it would be fine.

    I did get one with an access panel, just didn't know the proper nomenclature. I was thinking I could wire 2 through a 1" conduit, but I might not be able to, 2 (90amp potential out) 4 gauge, 2 - (50 amp potential input) 6 gauge though I think I can use 8 gauge for a short 24"run to breaker. I had hoped to string the neg wire from Classic to classic and into the bus bar so 1 - 4 gauge, though I guess this has potential of 180 amps! but 18", 1 ground wire (strung classic to classic) 1 BTS wire... crowded for 1" conduit.

    I think I'll just do 3 - 1" output from the junction box and do all the wiring home runs, I still have to run networking wires between the 3 classics as well as a network out.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Thanks Fizzy,

    I might post there tonight, just not as active a site as here, I had my master electrician friend's brother (lesser electrician) call be and say he thought it would be fine.

    I did get one with an access panel, just didn't know the proper nomenclature. I was thinking I could wire 2 through a 1" conduit, but I might not be able to, 2 (90amp potential out) 4 gauge, 2 - (50 amp potential input) 6 gauge though I think I can use 8 gauge for a short 24"run to breaker. I had hoped to string the neg wire from Classic to classic and into the bus bar so 1 - 4 gauge, though I guess this has potential of 180 amps! but 18", 1 ground wire (strung classic to classic) 1 BTS wire... crowded for 1" conduit.

    I think I'll just do 3 - 1" output from the junction box and do all the wiring home runs, I still have to run networking wires between the 3 classics as well as a network out.

    It is best to run the +, -, and panel ground for one circuit through the same hole into the box, rather than all the + in one hole, all the - in another and all the grounds in a third. The rule is that all current carrying conductors of the same circuit must run in the same raceway/wireway/conduit.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Photowhit,

    Does your Epanel have enough space for the 6 circuit breakers that you need for three classics? I can't tell from your sig exactly what else is on your Epanel (inverter, breakers for DC and AC loads, etc.).

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?
    inetdog wrote: »
    It is best to run the +, -, and panel ground for one circuit through the same hole into the box, rather than all the + in one hole, all the - in another and all the grounds in a third. The rule is that all current carrying conductors of the same circuit must run in the same raceway/wireway/conduit.

    Fizzy, I will only have single connections to each CC, I basically have a single 2" connection to the junction box and 3 - 1" connections from the junction box to each Midnite CC. The 2" connection will be big enought to run all the wiring w/o violating the 50% rule.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Does your Epanel have enough space for the 6 circuit breakers that you need for three classics? I can't tell from your sig exactly what else is on your Epanel (inverter, breakers for DC and AC loads, etc.).

    Vtmaps - Yes, I will be solar only, no AC from grid or generator. They have space for 4(or 5 maybe 6?) Din rail breakers and 3 panel mount breakers, as well as the single larger 125-250amp breaker for battery disconnect and comes with another 3 Din rail AC breakers for incoming AC with a toggle for generator/Inverter Bypass and an AC input breaker (I won't be using these and have already pulled the connecting wires though left the connections to AC bus bars) It also has a space for a GFCI breaker... But it will be a busy little box, even without the AC wiring.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Hi Photowhit,

    Am a bit late to this thread ..

    As you know, there are maximum fill specs on boxes, Conduit Bodies and Conduit.

    Know that you are doing this today. Know, also that this will not be inspected.

    Have had a bit of trouble visulizing just what the junction box looks like. Had assumed that the Ts that you were Conduit Bodies -- LBTs, for example. There are electrical Bushings that are male/female donuts that adapt differing sized Rigid fittings into female-threaded ports of things like conduit bodies. However, often the wide range bushings like 2" - 1", are special order at my favorite electrical supply house anyway.

    Below is what I chose to do with a dual Classic CC installation. Probably not really to code. Do not like to run sensors and control cables in conduit with other cables over concern for induced noises etc. Good Luck, What fun! Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Hi Vic, as usual nothing's easy, I managed to just get the mounting leg done between my braces, and came to do a quick check before hanging the outer box, that might be all I do Today, since I have an something to do be for pool league tonight and also need to pick up some 6 gauge lugs.

    I bailed on trying to wire 2 through a single 1" conduit, rather I have a 6x6" junction box mounted with a 2" nipple, on the side of the E-Panel and have 3 - 1" conduit running out of the 6x6" box one up and 2 out of the side, so I really just took the 'safe way' out. The Classic above the junction box will use the bottom entry on the classic and the ones on the side will run into the side, I won't get the nice terraced effect, but all my runs will be home runs. No pairing the grounds or the negative sides, I think 'by code' I'd have to run #2 from the 2nd negative out to the bus bar since that would have a potential of 180amps...

    My goal is not to have to rewire if I max out the controller, so I have a 90 amp breakers and will run #4 from the output to the breaker.

    Thanks for the example, I think I've seen it before, very clean!
    Well back to work...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    OK whit,

    Sounds fine to me, as I understand it. You DO have lots of time. Nice that you are acutally placing this nice system in service this year! This is always the fun part to me. Good Luck, Vic.
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    I brought batteries home today, will start this off with the batteries that will replace the fork lift battery at the cabin.

    This 'rush' isn't as bad as when I was building the cabin, with the array, power center, batteries already in place and providing electric and had to finish the cabin so it was 'home' by the end of the year, I ended up putting OSB on the walls, I always said it was no big deal to put some bead board and cedar over the OSB, but the OSB is still the only thing on the walls. Now that I'm out and into the 'new place' I'll go back and have time and room to fix up the cabin the way I wanted it in the firstplace... or so the plan goes....

    I'll 'flip the switch' Saturday, it'll be a bit rigged yet, but it will provide some use in the house, and I'll be 'legal' by tax def. at least.

    I'll post some photos of the power box as soon as I get it wired pretty, I'm using some mechanical lugs waiting on so tinned crimp lugs and no breaker between CC and batteries yet, other than the main DC. My 'Priority Mail' from NAWS is running 'Christmas slow' or even lost with christmas stuff. I'll ask the office to look around, they once lost someones cell phone for 6 months!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Iguess I did get a shot Thursday night of the junction box, with 2 Classics attached, while I was dry wiring, the third will be about where the cover is.
    Attachment not found.

    I did every thing but start things up today, very ugly, I don't even have roofing on the outside box yet....
    111.jpg 100.9K
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Hi whit,

    Looks great. Like the cascading Classics. 'Tis a thing of beauty. Have Fun bringing up all of that extra PV power. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #13
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?

    Here is how I did it. Keep in mind 3 of these controllers are greater than 150 volt so I needed lots of breaker poles. I used the MNDC15 breaker box.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    Here is how I did it. Keep in mind 3 of these controllers are greater than 150 volt so I needed lots of breaker poles. I used the MNDC15 breaker box.

    Greater than 150V? Are you running in series?

    Mine will be a parrallel setup 2 - 2000 watt array's and 1 - 2600 watt array feeding a 24 V battery bank, so 3- 50Amp din rail and 3 - 90 Amp panel mount breakers, it's dang crowded, I won't have an alternate source of power, so I might pull the extra 'furniture', just leave the breakers to fill the gaps, use 1 AC breaker to feed sub panel....

    I just figured it out! You can't use the 150V rated breakers for Classic 200/250 input, missed the wind, and I was't thinking.

    'tis a thing of beauty! I can only hope to be half as clean.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Adding a junction box to a E-Panel question?
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Greater than 150V? Are you running in series?

    Mine will be a parrallel setup 2 - 2000 watt array's and 1 - 2600 watt array feeding a 24 V battery bank, so 3- 50Amp din rail and 3 - 90 Amp panel mount breakers, it's dang crowded, I won't have an alternate source of power, so I might pull the extra 'furniture', just leave the breakers to fill the gaps, use 1 AC breaker to feed sub panel....

    I just figured it out! You can't use the 150V rated breakers for Classic 200/250 input, missed the wind, and I was't thinking.

    'tis a thing of beauty! I can only hope to be half as clean.


    Oh you should see it with the covers OFF :)
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