Outback GS8048 Radian

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

I think so too. Being it's a synchronous inverter, it has to draw a sinusoidal current from the AC input that's in phase with the input voltage. According the PDF propaganda that Outback Power sent me, the PF is .96. And I find that reasonable. In fact, that's right in the same rough range as the chargers in our SW+ inverters. If the inverter is delivering 3,000 real watts to the batteries during charging, the generator is at roughly 3.1 kVA output.

One thing I don't like about Outback is that they don't build their own generator controller. This means that for setting things like pre-crank, crank and post-crank seconds, you can't use the Mate3 to simply set that. Instead they use the third party controllers, or assume that everybody uses two-wire start generators.

The other inverter we're going to take a hard look at is a Schneider Electric Conext (formerly Xantrex) XW6048. The 6048 is actually big enough to run our loads with generator load support. And with a Xanbus connected generator controller all the settings for the generator are available on the control panel for the inverter. The XW6048 also boasts better overload capability, and with its ability to deliver 7.2 kVA for 30 minutes, that's plenty of time to run most heavy intermittent loads and bring the generator online to help out if the load persists for more than a reasonable time that the battery bank can handle.

The other thing that's a little disappointing looking at the specs for the GS8048 Radian is the idle and low-load efficiency is quite poor compared to the XW. While that may not be a big issue for grid tie folks, for off-grid it is. At night when the loads are really low an inverter that has a parasitic power consumption of 17 watts (XW) instead of 30 watts (Radian) will save roughly 40 kWh of power in a year's time.
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Chris

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

mtdoc - I think the biggest issue for us would be that we pretty much depend on generator load support to run our heavy intermittent loads. The VFX/FX-series inverters only have generator pass-thru.

There is basically only a few inverters that have generator load support; the old Trace/Xantrex SW's (which we have dual Plus 4024's now), the Conext/Xantrex XW-series, the new Outback GS8048 Radian, and Magnum Energy is coming out with one called the MSH4024RE (no release date yet).

So if we want to up our bank voltage to 48 volts we basically only have two options - either the XW6048 or a GS8048 Radian.

The support issue with the Conext XW worries me too. No dealers handle them (Xantrex) around here anymore. I don't know how they handle field support or repairs for warranty or out-of-warranty issues. The XW is designed to be field serviceable without having to remove it from the wall. But getting parts for it, in the event it would need something, could be another issue.
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Chris

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

Vic - interesting thread. Mary Raub is the lady that does all these Outback Training Videos demonstrating the Mate3, that I've been watching to learn more about this system before the dealer comes here on Monday:
http://www.youtube.com/user/OutBackPowerTech/videos?sort=dd&flow=grid&view=0&page=1

I sort of understand Steve Higgin's reply. In support mode he said it would be .96 and that makes sense - that's about what the SW+ is in support mode (generator load support where the inverter supports the AC input). In this mode if the load exceeds what the generator is producing the charger works in reverse and supplies synchronous power with the generator to the loads from the batteries. When the loads are less than the generator is producing the charger switches directions and charges the bank with the excess. That ~.95 or .96 PF is what I've seen with the SW+.

The thing is - inverters with generator load support are never in "pure" battery charging mode. You have SW+ inverters and a generator I think - try this: start your generator and let the inverters sync up with it. Make sure the bank is down pretty good so the inverter starts bulking the bank at pretty much full gen output capacity - say with a 6 kW generator.

Now turn on an extremely heavy load that requires all the surge power the generator can put out, plus full surge from the inverters. This may be upwards of 20-25 kW (like a big Lincoln welder striking an arc).

With stacked Outback VFX's here's what happens - the gen goes into immediate overload and the inverter spits it off. The internal transfer relays click and the inverters try to meet the load. But they can't meet it so they go back to the generator because of load amps. The generator still hasn't recovered and now it gets hit again. The breaker on the gen trips and the inverters shut down due to overload and all your power goes out. This all happens in less than one second. Seen it with Outback inverters several times.

With the stacked SW+ inverters here's what happens. The gen goes into overload but the inverter sees the max gen amps have been reached. Those chargers in there instantaneously reverse direction and meet the surge load with the batteries and the lights don't even flicker in the house. There's no relays or anything in there that clicks or takes 16 ms to switch. It's instantaneous. They can go from full charge amps to using both the generator and batteries to meet a heavy surge so fast that your HDTV won't even get a line of fuzz on it.

I can't really see how the Radian would be any different with bi-directional synchronous chargers.

If you have a generator with "dirty" output and running well out of spec, the PF is going to be quite a bit lower for obvious reasons. But the inverter will still accept it within about +/- 12 volts and +/- 6 Hz. But the charger is not going to operate efficiently with that sort of input.
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Chris

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

I didn't know about those. But I looked them up and they look quite nice.

I guess one of my thoughts was that if we're upgrading, that it would be nice to have what we need in one box and get away from the stacking type setups. I guess one way to look at it is that stacked inverters provide redundancy in the event one would fail. But we have the generator to provide that too, and with a company like Outback I've heard (and pretty much experienced) that their customer support is excellent - and if you have a problem with one I've heard of some people that have had a board or replacement part overnight aired to them to get it going again.

That's one thing that I'm a little uncertain about with a Conext/Xantrex. I have talked to Schneider Electric's Renewable Energy support people about the XW and let's just say I wasn't nearly as impressed as I was with Outback Power.
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Chris

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

On a good day we can get 60+ kWh from the wind turbines, proving we have enough water heating load, combined with other loads, to use it. On an average day we get 4-5 kWh apiece from the turbines and another 12-14 kWh from solar. However, for the entire month of October (so far) 63% of our power has come from wind. That will go to better than 80% coming from wind in the winter months. Solar does not work here in the winter very well.

We got 2.9 kWh from 3.5 kW of installed solar capacity today, and 21 kWh (so far) from wind. The wind turbines are running at about 1.5-1.8 kW combined output as I type this. And the wind has picked up this afternoon. So I expect they'll produce ~30 kwh for the day by midnite when the Classics roll the logs over.

Regardless of how much energy you produce or don't produce, 40 kWh is 40 kWh no matter where it's generated, used or wasted when you're off-grid.
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Chris

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

Many of my builds are on some other forums for homebuilders. I build those turbines for off-grid folks, and I've got several of them in Canada. We have three wind turbines for our home. They're on 80 and 90 foot self-supporting towers - this is the latest one I put up in July on one of my own 80 foot towers:

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They are 3.5 meter (11.5 foot diameter) high voltage machines (cut in at 50 volts, rated power at 142 volts), have a geared axial generator, and use the Classic 150 controller. They produce 460 watts @ 15 mph, 1 kW @ 20 mph and 1.6 kW @ 25 mph. Depending on how you set the voltage clipper they are capable of well over the Classic's maximum output rating on 12 and 24 volt systems in 30+ mph wind. They are not power limited by the furling tail - that doesn't do anything until the wind is blowing about 35-40 mph. Their power is limited by the voltage clipper.

Yes, of course, I do all the maintenance. They only require annual service which consists of inspecting the blades and touching up any worn paint and cleaning leading edges, inspecting the drop cable for wear (they do not use slip rings), changing oil in the gearbox, and greasing the yaw/thrust and tail bearings.

I only build them for qualified off-grid installations, and only for installation on a proper tower. I will not build one for somebody who wants to use it for grid-tie, or put it on a guyed pipe tower because pipe towers move too much and won't hold one in high winds. The machine weighs in excess of 300 lbs and develops close to 1,000 lbs of side thrust on the tower mast in 90 mph wind (90 mph survival required by the new tower standard). The towers for them are either built here (my own design), or I use Rohn SSV towers, depending on the zoning requirements and what engineering stamp is required on it.

My turbines are well outside the budget range of all but the most serious off-grid installations. But they are also not a toy like a Bergey XL.1 Noisemaker.
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Chris

Re: Outback GS8048 Radian

Vic wrote: »

However if there is any way for you to AVOID Schneider Electric, you should be light years ahead by doing just that. They seem to ignore/hate their customers.

I called and talked to Schneider Electric about a new XW6048. The lady I talked to was knowledgeable enough, answered all my questions, recommended a dealer that's only 50 miles from us (that I didn't know handles and services them) - but was not near as friendly and thorough as the lady I talked to at Outback Power.

The lady at Outback Power asked us where we live - and when I told her she said well they sell batteries too and she's familiar with where we live and knows it gets REALLY cold here in the winter so we might need more batteries too. The conversation was fun, she obviously knew what she was talking about, gave me her direct number and extension in case I have any more questions, put me on conference call while she contacted the dealer and introduced me to the authorized dealer over the phone - how do you put it? Just top notch treatment of a potential customer.

The Schneider lady acted like she could care less if I ever called there again.

Steve Higgins appears to have moved from OB to Surrette, altho, guess that he might wear both of those hats as a freelancer or something ...

It appears Mary Raub, who used to work for Tech Support at Outback, has also left and now works as a solar designer for a company that installs solar power systems on homes and charges the homeowner a flat fee for the power produced by the solar power system.
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Chris