Magnum charging profile

vtmaps
vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
That Magnum user's manual is a piece or work... every time I pick it up I find something worthy of a new topic!
http://www.magnumenergy.com/Literature/Manuals/Inverters/64-0017%20(MS-AE%20Series).pdf
Attachment not found.
:confused:The way they graph constant current (lower left) is a bit unusual:confused: --vtMaps
4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    I just installed a Magnum inverter, 2000W and 12 V, and I have this diagram. The one and only day I was at my Ranch after the installation, I noticed it went through the cycle of Bulk, then Absorb, then Float. After about a half hour on Float I tested the batteries with my hydrometer. All the cells were just barely out of the red and into the white zone. None of them were anywhere near the green zone. Shouldn't it have charged at Bulk for a longer time? They are brand new L16's (well a week or two old).
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    BO, Did you do an initial charge to bring them all the way up? they degrade after initial addition of electrolyte.

    read this thread , it probably fits your situation..http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?14333-Specific-Gravity
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Do you have the ME-RC remote control? If you do you can set all these settings. If not you will have to use the default factory settings. :Dsolarvic:D
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  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    BoFuller wrote: »
    I just installed a Magnum inverter, 2000W and 12 V, and I have this diagram. The one and only day I was at my Ranch after the installation, I noticed it went through the cycle of Bulk, then Absorb, then Float. After about a half hour on Float I tested the batteries with my hydrometer. All the cells were just barely out of the red and into the white zone. None of them were anywhere near the green zone. Shouldn't it have charged at Bulk for a longer time? They are brand new L16's (well a week or two old).
    Well, the charge cycle is dependent on voltage. It has no way to know the SG level. You really need to Equalize them when they are new and get a constant to go back to. Then you can adjust the time required to get you back to the correct level. A half sulfated battery will charge correctly on the charger algorithm, but never reach a full charge and complete SG level.
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #6
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    BoFuller wrote: »
    I just installed a Magnum inverter, 2000W and 12 V... it went through the cycle of Bulk, then Absorb, then Float. After about a half hour on Float I tested the batteries with my hydrometer. All the cells were just barely out of the red and into the white zone. None of them were anywhere near the green zone. Shouldn't it have charged at Bulk for a longer time? They are brand new L16's (well a week or two old).

    There are many possibilities.

    Do you have the "ME-ARC" or the "ME-RC"? And which software versions? There have been some different ways to change the absorb time settings used in Magnums. Some versions change absorb time based on the selected battery capacity setting. Some let you set the "absorb time". Some versions will not allow a bulk cycle to start (from the generator) while the battery voltage is slightly elevated due to solar or other sources of charging. Using an AGS can really mix things up.

    The "ME-ARC" has the ability to program finish amps, but this to can be affected by other charging sources.

    Alex Aragon
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Bo,

    Do you have PV and a Charge Controller in addition to the Magnum? Is your system Off-grid (?) ... I assume that it must be as you mention 12 V.

    Some manufacturers do recommend EQing a battery bank when it is installed, as a part of comissioning the bank. Surrette does recommend this.

    It is NOT GOOD to leave batteries in a discharged state for even a few days.

    It would help those trying to advise you on these types of issues, if you would create a signature line with your configuration, equipment, location etc.

    I know nothing of the Magnum Inverter/Chargers, BUT, you need to get the SGs UP to the range speced by the manufacturer very soon. You need to use a Battery Temp Sensor on the bank. AND getting a GOOD Hydrometer with real numbers on the Glass Float will help with SG resolution. Some of the Hydros with colored scales and judgment words are unreliable. Some of plastic ones seem to be prone to being consumed by the battery acid, and do not do the job. Also, rinse/flush the hydrometer after each use with Distilled Water.

    JMHO, Vic

    More later, good luck, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    vtmaps wrote: »
    :confused:The way they graph constant current (lower left) is a bit unusual:confused: --vtMaps

    Yes it is kinda weird now that you mention it. This is an inverter charging with a generator or from the grid and
    should show the current come up sharply to maximum current limit right away I think.

    boB
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #9
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    I have the Magnum remote that came free with the Magnum inverter. I just installed the Trimetric meter also. I have charged the batteries as high as I can get the system to let me so far, but that is still only to 12.25. Then I get "low battery" warning in the morning.
    I'm off-grid. NW Arizona at 6200 feet.
    I have gone into the Magnum Remote and entered 14.3 V where the default was 28.6
    I entered 400 amps and 8 for the P3 reading. I set Absorb time for 3 hours instead of default 2
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    I can't figure out how to Equalize. I have gone through all the screens on the Magnum Remote and can't find anywhere to tell it to Equalize.
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #11
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    You need to figure out the charging setup quickly... 12.25 volts for charging is way too low--almost useless and possibly damaging to your battery bank in weeks, or even days (your should be seeing ~14.2-14.6 at least).

    Check your DMM meter's calibration (and battery)--Measure your car battery for rest and charging. Check the specific gravity of the battery bank (there is always a possibility that some meter is reading low and you are properly charging).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    The charging rate is 14.3V when it is charging, but when the charging cycle (3.5 hours) is over, the meters and my hydrometer only measure the freshly charged batteries at 12.25
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #13
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Just to be clear--The resting voltage is 12.25 volts? Or the voltage of the battery bank under load is 12.25 volts? Or the specific gravity of electrolyte when fully charged is 1.225?

    When the bank is charging at 14.3 volts (still seems a bit low for flooded cell batteries at ~room temperature--more of a Sealed/AGM type charging voltage), do you know the charging current into the battery bank?

    What inverter/battery bank voltage is yours system? "entered 14.3 V where the default was 28.6" is quite an error in default programmed value....

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Right now the Magnum meter says Float charge, 14.2V and the Trimetric reads 14.2
    I just went out and measured the batteries with hydrometer and I get halfway between the 12.25 and 12.5 marks, in the Fair range.
    That's the highest I have gotten the batteries. It seems to think they are fully charged.
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    It is 92 degrees by the way.
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #16
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Oh, OK... that is 1.225 specific gravity (note where the decimal point is--that is 1.225x heavier than 1.000 water specific gravity). What is the (rough) temperature of the battery bank?

    Still do not understand the 14.3 vs 28.6 volt charging voltage setting on the Inverter...

    And, "float" of 14.2 is a bit high--Most batteries are in the 13.2 to 13.6 volt range.

    When the battery is charging/floating at 14.2+ volts... Do you see/hear bubbling going on in the electrolyte? The closer the battery comes to 100% full, the more vigorous the bubbling.

    Once a week to once a month or so, you should check the specific gravity of all cells. If they are more than ~0.015 to 0.30 difference between the "high" and the "low" cells, you should fully charge the battery bank and "equalize" charge the battery (around 15 to 15.5 volts, checking specific gravity every 30-60 minutes--when the cells stop rising in S.G., then stop equalizing).

    You should "fully charge/equalize" the battery bank at least once when new and log the S.G. number of each cell... That is your "ideal" 100% fully charged battery bank value (some batteries have lower "full charge" sg, and others have higher sg readings--And as the batteries age, the "full charge" SG readings will eventually begin to decline).

    What is the low voltage alarm set at and how much power/current are you drawing that that time? What is the battery bank voltage? Typically, you should not discharge (under moderate loads) to below (very roughly) 11.5 volts on a day to day basis.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Glad you have the remote as it is really needed to set up everything. You should have receuved a manual with the remote. You need to read it thru a couple of times as it tells you how to equalize. On page 10 there is a chart to set up the equalizing time. On page 13 tells what voltage to set your charger. Probably you need to use the custom menu to sset the voltage a little higher. You can set in the range between 12 to 16 volt. Maybe someone that has more experience with your batterys can give you some voltages to program. I have a fork truck battery and still on a little bit of a learning curve. Oh, to get inverter to equalize. read on page 27 that tells you how to get it to equalize. To enable equalize be sure floati charging or full charge displays on your remote screen. Hold the on/off charger button and equalize will register. I sugest to wair till it registers full charge before equalizing and to read the remote manual and you will have a better understanding of how everything works. solarvic
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Hope I havn.t confused you. In my posting I assumed you had the grid for battery charging. If no grid I have no experience with charging with a generator but there are a couple guys folling this post that probably can tell you what you need to know. :Dsolarvic:D
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    I don't recall a manual just for the Remote. I have been looking in the inverter manual. I'll look around some more.
    Thanks!
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Sounds like the Absorb time is too short.

    Magnum has an on-line document library here: http://www.magnumenergy.com/Documents/DocsFront.htm
    Remote control docs here: http://www.magnumenergy.com/Documents/Doc-Lib-Remotes.htm
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #21
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    BoFuller wrote: »
    I just installed a Magnum inverter, 2000W and 12 V, and I have this diagram. The one and only day I was at my Ranch after the installation, I noticed it went through the cycle of Bulk, then Absorb, then Float. After about a half hour on Float I tested the batteries with my hydrometer. All the cells were just barely out of the red and into the white zone. None of them were anywhere near the green zone. Shouldn't it have charged at Bulk for a longer time? They are brand new L16's (well a week or two old).

    Hey BoFuller,

    It just dawned on me that you did not specifically say you were running a generator. I had assumed so because in the original post vtmaps posted the Magnum charging profile chart. Just to be clear, the Magnum inverter's charger settings will only affect charging from an AC source (Generator or Grid). You said that you "noticed it went through the cycle of..." but was this with the generator running or just from solar?

    If it was just from solar, we have been looking in the wrong place. You may need to change settings in the TS-MPPT-60.

    -Alex
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Alex,
    So far all charging has been from generator. I have not been able to get any power from the panels yet (that's a different problem).
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Solarvic and Cariboocoot,

    Thanks! I located the manual online and have been reading it. I can't print it until I get back to civilization, but thanks to my iPad I can read it here.
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #24
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Alex, have you been able to purchase an AC/DC Current Clamp Meter (such as this ~$60 one from Sears)... They are sweet for debugging and validating what is going on with your system... Voltage is one thing, but being able to measure actual current flow by just clipping across an insulated wire makes things almost "too easy" (says the cheap guy who went 40 years without a clamp on DMM meter for 35+ years of working with electricity).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #25
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Is this a continueation on another thread you started about putting this in a movable trailer Would have been a lot less confusing if we knew that? See that you state you have a generator in your other thread. How big a generator do you have? You probably should have keep this in the same thread you started. :Dsolarvic:D
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    solarvic wrote: »
    Is this a continueation on another thread you started about putting this in a movable trailer Would have been a lot less confusing if we knew that? See that you state you have a generator in your other thread. How big a generator do you have? You probably should have keep this in the same thread you started. :Dsolarvic:D

    Sorry, I just replied because someone posted the diagram for my inverter. Yes I should have gone back to "possible starter system" thread.
    Generator is a Generac 15K.
    I did get my other problem fixed. The leads going into the CC from the panels were reversed. I just switched them and should be able to have solar do the charging tomorrow instead of the generator. I don't know that it will affect the problem of not getting the batteries up to full charge.
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    #27
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    Bo! You aren,t the first person that did this including myself. It just makes it easier for people to help because most all your problems with your new setup are related to each other. Getting the charge controler to work is good. That is part of your problems and if you need any help setting voltages ect. I am sure you will get good help from the people here. Surprising that you didn,t get a manual with the remote. Really I think the remote should come with the inverter and not an accessory as you can,t program the inverter without it. :Dsolarvic:D
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  • BoFuller
    BoFuller Solar Expert Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    You're right. I can't even remember what I said in one thread when I'm posting in the other. LOL
    I'll confine my requests and comments to the main thread "possible starter system" in Solar Beginners.
    Maybe I was subconsciously trying to get out of the Beginners area. :)
    Clearly I need to stay there awhile!
    Thanks!!
    12 Kyocera 235 panels, 3 Gyll LiFePO4 batteries (previously 16 Trojan L16 RE-B batteries), Outback 3600W 48V system, Generac 11K propane backup generator, NW AZ, off grid, 6,000 ft (system installed in April 2015)

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  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    solarvic wrote:
    You probably should have keep this in the same thread you started.
    yes, this thread did get hijacked. boB was the only respondent to pick up on my point that the charging profile graph was so wrong. The Magnum is a good charger and it does what it should do, it does not do what the graph shows. Whoever made that graph didn't know how to read it. I find that the Magnum manual has a few other deficiencies. Some time ago I noticed that their wiring diagrams for serial/parallel battery banks are bizarre.
    I posted about that here: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?13721
    I always wanted to be a poofreader :p
    solarvic wrote: »
    Really I think the remote should come with the inverter and not an accessory as you can't program the inverter without it.
    There is a good reason for making the remote a separate item. That remote adds to the cost of the inverter. If it was built into the inverter, those who stack the inverters would be buying a remote in each of their stacked inverters. Outback does the same thing with their inverter and mate.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #30
    Re: Magnum charging profile

    On behalf of the moderators I say "mea culpa!"
    We could have fixed this early on, and should have, but for some reason we didn't. Sloth, perhaps.
    :blush:
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  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    #31
    Re: Magnum charging profile
    BB. wrote: »
    Alex, have you been able to purchase an AC/DC Current Clamp Meter (such as this ~$60 one from Sears)...

    Bill,

    I've got Fluke and Greenlee meters, true RMS, hall effect current clamps, temp probes, Hz, CAT IV, Cat III...

    Years ago I had two different Sears/Craftsman mulitmeters. One was made by Fluke but it took several seconds to settle into a reading. It would beep repeatedly and the display would readjust every half second. Maddening! I gave it away to an apprentice. The other was a "pocket" sized multi meter with a AC/DC clamp a little smaller in diameter than a quarter. It was very handy but it was not particularly accurate. (+/-5-10% on many readings) I liked it but it died after about 2 months. By the way, the Craftsman warranty (at the time) was 30 days for commercial use, 1 year for non-commercial use. The one Craftsman meter I still have is a touchless infarared thermometer that will not turn off. I have to take out the batteries when not in use.:grr

    They work well enough for the price range for DIY but no more Craftsman Meters for me. Greenlee and Fluke make great tools but they are not out to make friends. For professional tools I have usually found that I've really gotten what I've paid for.

    The thing I've got my eye on now is the "Fluke 381". True RMS with a remote display and a flexible clamp meter. 8)
    http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/WheretoBuy/promotions/Fluke-381-Clamp.htm

    Of course my wife has her eye on a new dishwasher...:blush:

    -Alex
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