Not new but LOST. Thanks

mvandeusen · December 2011

ok so I am currently off grid and realized that I still am shy 12 more batteries to total another 3600.00 BUT I am now looking into prehaps going half off and half on grid and my question is for starters:

To make a grid tie utility company meter run backwards, Do I need to get a special meter from the electric company or the meter I currently have now WILL spin backwards? (Its digital)

I am just trying to find out if grid tie is as simple as having solar panels hooked to a grid tie inverter plugged into a wall outlet good enough or am i missing something.

For now lets not worry about the off grid i now am on since I still use the electric company for battery charger.

Just want to lets say get 5 120 watt panels and get lets say a 1000 watt grid tie inverter that plugs into the wall outlet... Am I then done? Meter should spin backwards if nothing in the house is drawing?

thanks

mike95490 · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

MOST digital meters will not spin backwards ! But the do continue to spin fwd, as you feed the grid. SMART !

But there are no code approved plug-in inverters in North America

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

mike90045 wrote: »

MOST digital meters will not spin backwards ! But the do continue to spin fwd, as you feed the grid. SMART !

But there are no code approved plug-in inverters in North America

so does that mean I need the electric company to swith the meter to the old dial kind? Also, so then DONT use a plug in inverter?

Am I better off just getting the other 12 batteries that I need if thats the case?

Thanks Mike

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Also, I have a 5000/10000 watt modified inverter that I use at my home for the home. Is that BIG? Is it too much inverter? What size is average? and if its a pure sine inverter what does my modified equal to in pure since (exp. 5000 modified is actually 2000 watt pure) thanks on this question.

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

I would do some research on grid tie,,,

You will find that if he the grid available, your grid tie solar power cost about 1/4 the cost of your battery solar. Grid tie solar is the bargain relative to battery based!

Avoid Ready, fire, aim!

Tony

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

icarus wrote: »

I would do some research on grid tie,,,

You will find that if he the grid available, your grid tie solar power cost about 1/4 the cost of your battery solar. Grid tie solar is the bargain relative to battery based!

Avoid Ready, fire, aim!

Tony

thats one of the reasons im here..LOL, the main concern i guess is i kn ow nothing about grid tie other then that they have plug ins which is kinda a no brainer but mike pointed out non are approved for the US. I am thinking of going grid tie just need more understanding other then basic concept.

niel · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

it's difficult for anybody here to comment on whether adding batteries to an existing off grid setup would suffice for you, but most times it is more efficient and cost effective to go the route of grid tie. it is not going to be as simple as you indicate though as this would encompass a bit of engineering to know what would suffice for your install and it would need inspected or at least approved by the utility. i am not sure of what you are trying to specifically accomplish as part of this will still be off grid as you say. even specifics for off grid we can't make true comments on without knowing what the loads are and the kwh they might encompass and is this just to save $ or is there a bigger picture as it isn't real clear?

solar_dave · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

I am not sure of your location but:
1) Grid tie usually must be approved of by the utility, then they supply the proper meter.
2) Grid tie uses inverters that are tied into your main panel in accordance with NEC.
3) Grid tie inverters usually have a certification like UL.
4) Grid tie inverters shut off if the grid goes down to prevent back feed protection for line workers.
5) Grid tie many times needs permits and code qualifications
6) All of the above are true for your homeowners insurance to be in force and valid.

Those plug in inverters just don't meet those qualifications.

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

niel wrote: »

it's difficult for anybody here to comment on whether adding batteries to an existing off grid setup would suffice for you, but most times it is more efficient and cost effective to go the route of grid tie. it is not going to be as simple as you indicate though as this would encompass a bit of engineering to know what would suffice for your install and it would need inspected or at least approved by the utility. i am not sure of what you are trying to specifically accomplish as part of this will still be off grid as you say. even specifics for off grid we can't make true comments on without knowing what the loads are and the kwh they might encompass and is this just to save $ or is there a bigger picture as it isn't real clear?

I am also in Cairo IL 62914

i live in an area where gas and light runs 700 a month EVEN for a family of 2 which work. They are nuts. I have been using off grid solar for over a yr now and cut my utilities down to 45 per month. Baslcally the battery charger since I am short the 12 batteries. I am as everyone else broke so I am trying to do away with even the 45 per month. I figured if I got a couple of panels and a plug in inverter I can try to produce the 45 a month that I use to buy me some time on the battieries. this way I can buy 2 6v cr395 (395's) and grow it slowly while still being ongrid but not have a bill from them.

all in all my goal is to only have the city water company bill coming in each month.

Here is my system that I currently have running the entire house including the central heat which is why I need to battery charger because i have to compensate for the lack of batteries.

4- 125w panels
8- 15w solar panels
a midnight combiner
xantrax tru charge 2 40amp controller
4 cr395's
5000w/10000w modified inverter

that is my whole system.. In the summer i needed the battery charger for maybe 3 hours every other day running at 40% Now that we are in winter and I moved into a new house that i am now using the central heat I am running the battery charger for about 3 hours a day. I know already that to complete my system I need a total of 16 panels and 16 batteries in which I have 4 of each. I have another panel enroute fedex to me and that is why I thought of taking that panel and getting a small plugin inverter so that when I am all charged up the grid tie can spin backwards the meter to when I need to turn on the battery charger I will be using what I put in earlier thus cancelling out the 45.00

Am I not seeing this right because I am open to suggustions. I do know that grid tie means less monitoring the system which I now do 3 times a day because of the lack of system. I by far am on the right track with off grid but money is slow coming in so I have to buy as I get paid. (self employ so i bill net 30 and thats a long time to wait for your check).

like i said the goal is to be away from the utility company period.

thanks for reading my thoughts and what I am trying to do... Now any advice is better then none.

BB. · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Regarding meters and metering--It is up to your utility as to which meter(s) they will allow (and they will install)... If you add grid tied, there is usually a bunch of forms and insurance requirements too (my homeowners insurance was "good enough" for my utility).

-Bill

BB. · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Also, conservation will be the best (and most cost effective) way to start.

Insulation, energy star appliances, using laptop computers instead of desk top, turning off DVR's/Sat/Digital receivers if not in use, the newer Heat Pump central heat and even electric water heaters, etc...

A Kill-a-Watt meter or equivalent is great for 120 VAC plug-in loads to check them.

And there are whole house meters too (and some with multiple monitoring sensors, main power, A/C, Heating, etc.).

Until you know where you are spending your money--It is difficult to make plans to reduce your power usage.

Are you looking at 700 kWH per month (not a lot of wasted energy for most on-grid people), or are you looking at $700 per month power bill?

Pure Off Grid systems, on a $$/kWH basis, cost almost 10x what utility rates are (batteries/inverters have losses, battery banks need to be replace every ~5-15 years, possibly new electronics every 10 years, repairs every 5, etc...).

-Bill

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Just understand,, that off grid PV is very inefficient and as a result it is very expensive. I n the real world, watt for watt, battery based off grid PV will cost about twice as much per watt to build, and produce about 1/2 as much usable power, leading to power cost per WH of perhaps 4 times as much.

If you are try ing to use PV to save money, and you are not using the grid, you are throwing money away!

It may seems cheap at the time, because you. May not. E sending a check to the utility, but when it comes time to pay the charging bill,, and to replace the batteries,, all of a sudden grid power at $.10-.20 kwh is cheap!

As Bill suggests,,conservation is your friend,, and your cheapest energy dollar. Also, any off grid battery based system must rely on the load calculations and experiences to install the proper balance between PV, batteries, inverters etc.

As a side note, I would guess that you are losing considerable amounts of power by using inefficient inverters.

Tony

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

BB. wrote: »

Also, conservation will be the best (and most cost effective) way to start.

Insulation, energy star appliances, using laptop computers instead of desk top, turning off DVR's/Sat/Digital receivers if not in use, the newer Heat Pump central heat and even electric water heaters, etc...

A Kill-a-Watt meter or equivalent is great for 120 VAC plug-in loads to check them.

And there are whole house meters too (and some with multiple monitoring sensors, main power, A/C, Heating, etc.).

Until you know where you are spending your money--It is difficult to make plans to reduce your power usage.

Are you looking at 700 kWH per month (not a lot of wasted energy for most on-grid people), or are you looking at $700 per month power bill?

Pure Off Grid systems, on a $$/kWH basis, cost almost 10x what utility rates are (batteries/inverters have losses, battery banks need to be replace every ~5-15 years, possibly new electronics every 10 years, repairs every 5, etc...).

-Bill

$700.00 which has bee reduced to 45.00

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

you are right I am sure as far as loss due to modified inverter. That is why I started this off asking about grid tie to see about how difficult it is to do appose to off grid. All over ebay they are selling grid tie inverters that plug in and I was thinking of getting one BUT mike said that they are not for the US.

I am not the smartest man in the world but they are saying that they are grid ties and you simply need the panels and they go directly to the grid tie inverter which has a plug to go into any wall outlet and in the solar daytime it will provide to the grid and when its nite time it shuts down as well as ilander protection. Anyhoot i came here cuz I thought it sounded too easy since remember I had to learn how to install the off grid i got now and this sounds too easy so I came here to find out.

I wouldnt at all mind going grid tie but have to learn what components I have are adaptable to grid tie and then install and of course the inverter.

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

I'm sorry, but your claim of taking your energy cost from $700 to $45 is meaningless. Assuming you are using no fewer kwh/ month y ou must have a massive battery bank. Unless you are amortizing (and saving for!) battery replacement which I predict is going to come much sooner than you expect if you are pumping those kinds of loads through it!) you are deluding yourself into thinking you are getting "cheap" power.

$700 worth of power, at $.15 is ~ 155 kwh per day. I find it impossible to believe that you come close to generating that with ~ 600 watts of PV. by my. Rule of thumb, 600 watts of off grid PV will produce something like ~1.2 kwh/day, less than 1/10 your claimed usage (assuming $.15/kwh)

Come back with some real numbers, and perhaps the experts here can send you in the right direction.

Tony

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

All those "plug in" grid tie inverters that you see in eBay are not legal, not UL listed, not safe, and indeed would void any insurance you have if there were ever a fire that could even remotely be traced to your illegal install of such an inverter.

I agree that it is a simple concept,, but as of now, the is no legal way to do grid tie without involving the utility and buying a proper grid tie inverter. The closest you can come is with an Enphase micro inverter,, that still needs to be permitted, and installed in a proper breaker and panel.

Tony

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

ok i think we are getting off topic here.

You missed that point entierly. The utility company here RIPS OFF everyone and that is one of the main reasons this town went from 5000 people to 1300 in a year. They are simply crooks. My wife and I barely use any of there electric and our bills where that high along with everyone elses. That is besides the point though....

I am trying to find out not about my current system but about grid ties and the fact that on ebay they are selling plug in inverters and that is what I am trying to find out about. Everything else is simply conversation.

I am trying to figure out on these grid tie plugin inverters and what is in detail about them.

thanks

mvandeusen · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

icarus wrote: »

All those "plug in" grid tie inverters that you see in eBay are not legal, not UL listed, not safe, and indeed would void any insurance you have if there were ever a fire that could even remotely be traced to your illegal install of such an inverter.

I agree that it is a simple concept,, but as of now, the is no legal way to do grid tie without involving the utility and buying a proper grid tie inverter. The closest you can come is with an Enphase micro inverter,, that still needs to be permitted, and installed in a proper breaker and panel.

Tony

now we are getting somewhere..LOL OK, so then plug in is out. OK then so if I buy a regular lets say 3000 watt grid tie inverter I would hook up my solar panels directly to them? If so then how does it gridtie to the meter what is missing there?

Thanks

Volvo Farmer · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Wow. I'm pretty new here, but I have to say there are some extremely patient and polite people answering questions on this board.

Sorry I can't help with the questions :-)

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

I would argue that your utility is a regulated monopoly. And is subject to the tariffs and rules set forth by your state and local utility commission, and any " rip off" is merely once perception as to what something "should" cost. For example, to back up your claim of rip off,, I suggest you post the details of your utility bill, your kwh. Use, and it's total cost for others to comment.

As for grid tie,, you wire your panels through proper combiner boxes etc, to the input side of a grid tie inverter, the grid tie inverter then is wired into a a proper breaker space in your service panel. Your meter (once you have no tracked with the utility) will then either run backwards if you are putting more power in than you are taking out, or rumors slowly if you are using more than you are generating.

The mechanics of how this works do not matter to you. Your utility may have all kinds of complicated metering schemes that may include time of day, peak rate, net metering etc.

As has ben suggested in earlier posts, I would do some research and figure out how to properly do it. You may also find that there are tax credits, and possibly utility rebates (from that rip off utility!) that mint off set much of your costs.

You are running the very real risk of "ready, fire, aim!"

Tony

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

As a side note, your Cairo il utility charges ~$.11kwh, so a $700 bill would be ~6363 kwh/month, or ~212 kwh/day. I repeate, one is not going to come close to generating that kind of load with 600 watts of PV.

If you wish to have a real conversation with real solutions,, then produce some real numbers!

Tony

As a side note, the utility is publicly owned, not for profit. It also provides service and waste water services,, as well as a hardware store! Since the customers own it,, I find it hard to reconcile the " rip off".

T

mike95490 · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

At some point, the utility will investigate what is happening, and assume you have bypassed the meter (going from $700 to $45 bill) and will send a Bubba to your house to re-educate you about paying your bills.

(only half tongue-in-cheek)

Blackcherry04 · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

mike90045 wrote: »

At some point, the utility will investigate what is happening, and assume you have bypassed the meter (going from $700 to $45 bill) and will send a Bubba to your house to re-educate you about paying your bills.

(only half tongue-in-cheek)

Thats for sure, they can tell you to the minute how much your using from 1000 miles away. I don't think you can really trick one, without the Net Metering activated, you pay for what you produce just like it was coming from their meter.

BB. · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Certainly there are people that go "guerrilla" with Grid Tied Inverter (plug in and otherwise). We try to educate about the reasons why it is not (usually) legal, and may not be safe. And for small installs, the cost of hardware usually is way more than the money saved on a utility bill.

We have talked about the various ways that utilities bill their customers--And some of the rules are very difficult to understand or predict how much a monthly bill will be (especially for large commercial customers--They may need to hire a consultant for $10k).

In the "olden days"... You may have a few dollars monthly service charge and then pay $0.10 to $0.20 per kWH for your power.

Today, because of customers that are conserving and installing grid tied solar power--Some utilities are starting to charge $20-$40 monthly connection fees, $4-$10 per kW reservation fee (i.e., turn on your microwave and A/C and take 3.5kW peak power, pay $35 for the privilege). Then pay a (sometimes) pretty low price $$/kWH... And in California, the more power you use per month, the more you pay (tiered rates). And with solar, we have to take Time of Use metering (summer afternoons can be upwards of $0.37 to $0.52 per kWH...

In our area, because of the low connection fees and high summer afternoon power rates--Grid Tied is pretty cost effective.

To know what would be your best options--Need to know more about your power costs and needs.

-Bill

TnAndy · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

mvandeusen wrote: »

$700.00 which has bee reduced to 45.00

Get one of your $700 bills out and report the number of KILOWATT HOURS on it. It's GOT to be many thousands of hours...many....

And no way do you produce that with 600watts of panel.

I have nearly 6,000watts, and a really good month for us is about 650-700 kw/hrs......about 60 bucks worth of power.

I ain't buying any of your figures so far.

Blackcherry04 · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Anybody see that GEICO Insurance commercial where the guy has 3 Guinea Pigs in a row boat , rowing and generating electricity so he can run his computer ?? It's funny.

Two Versions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6hmgTY76M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kXS37clsZw

niel · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Anybody see that GEICO Insurance commercial where the guy has 3 Guinea Pigs in a row boat , rowing and generating electricity so he can run his computer ?? It's funny.

Two Versions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU6hmgTY76M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kXS37clsZw

yup. trouble is they won't generate electricity in a little row boat and the old running wheel would've. i also guess he never heard of an endless loop tape that he could've put his own voice on it saying row, row, row, etc. and he could've then made the 3rd one produce produce power too.:roll::p

Seven · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Is your current system 12v or 24?
I have never seen a 5000w 12v inverter, so I will assume 24v.
Your panels with on a 24v system would only produce around 15a of charging current.
That is well short of the 40a you would need to keep them healthy. I don't see how you could run much of anything and not have the batteries completely dead in a couple of days. Even with a charger hooked up to them that was plugged in you would still be draining them too fast. Plus if have that charger, you are not really off grid in the first place.
On another note, because batteries, chargers, and inverters are not close to 100% efficient, you would be using much more power to keep them charged than you would to simply power the devices from the grid.

I have to agree with others that it seems like you are making stuff up. Everyone else has been nice, so I'm not going to change the tone here. I will just add that your information and your claims are similar to a freshman telling a math professor that 1+1=3.

BB. · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

Hmmm... Actually you can get an 8,000 Watt 12 VDC inverter from Marc's/Cariboocoot's favorite vendor.

-Bill

PS: Not recommending anything much over 1,200 watts for a 12 VDC inverter... The wiring/battery bank required the very high currents are expensive and difficult to make work well:

8,000 watts * 1/0.85 inv eff * 1/10.5 volts cutoff * 1.25 NEC safety factor = 1,120 Amp 12 VDC branch circuit

Very difficult to do...

icarus · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

So what wire size does one need for 1100 amps?

Tony

BB. · December 2011

Re: Not new but LOST. Thanks

A real rough guess, around 1.13" in diameter (roughly 1 sq inch of copper) for ~1,100 amps... No NEC tables I could find with a quick search go that high. Roughly 4x 4/0 cables in parallel for that current.

Might run into skin depth issues too (the 120 Hz of DC power input into the inverter may not use the full depth of a 1.13" cable).

-Bill

Not new but LOST. Thanks

Comments

Categories