Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott · August 2011

Has anyone had to fight with a Florida HOA about a solar panel installation? I put in an Architectural Review Application for a 10KW solar system which would be angled at 25 degrees, the front being 6' tall and the back around 11' tall, around 55 feet long x 12 feet wide.
Ground mounted in the back or the property enclosed by a 6 foot tall privacy fence, which wouldn't hide the array that much, but putting the array lower would cause the fence to shade it quite a bit on the edges and I don't want the extra expense of enphase micro inverters. Besides it will be a nice shady spot.

We're meeting up with them on the 10th of August. I'm going to have my lawyer write a letter and give it to them at the meeting.

Any other tips for dealing with these bozos?

Thanks, Rolland

Here is the law:
http://archive.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=163.04&URL=0100-0199/0163/Sections/0163.04.html

Below are some interesting links.
http://www.becker-poliakoff.com/pubs/newsletters/cu/cu_2004_04.pdf

http://www.floridacondohoalawblog.com/tags/solar-panels/

I really dont' want to have to go to court, but this person did and got $3800 from their HOA all over a $150 solar light tube
http://www.ccfj.net/courtdecsolarpanel.html

Urbandialect · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

HOA are a bunch of haters, i just posted an artical of a guy who's HOA denied him installation of Solar array due to the way it looked.. .

I've never had to deal with a HOA personally so I don't have any advice, if it's against the law for them to deny you then show them the law and tell them to kiss it where the sun don't shine.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

I submitted a copy of the law and a copy of their illegal doctrine and covenants clause with the application and they sill denied it. see below:

HOA Clause regarding Solar Panels:

5.35 Solar Collectors shall not be permitted without the prior written consent
of the ACB. Any approval of the ACB shall require that the solar collectors be
so located on the Lot that they are not visible from any Street and that their
visibility from surrounding Lots is restricted as much as practical.

FLORIDA LAW PROHIBITS AND FORBIDS - any entity from being denied the right to
install solar collectors or any renewable energy source on a Florida building,
including home owners associations and deed restricted communities. The
governing association may institute certain restrictions and require permission
in regards to the installation as long as they are relevant and not beyond
reason. Any restrictions must be applied uniformly to each individual and must
not prohibit the effectiveness or increase the purchase price of the energy
device.

Homeowners associations may not prohibit individuals from installing solar
collectors on the roof of the home.

Lastly, any stipulations or restrictions made by an association such as, placing
them in a direction that does not face the road, screening them from view by
trees, fences or placing them in a location not feasible for heating will
typically violate this state statute. The full text version of this state
statute can be found below or more formally on the web at the Florida Solar
Energy Center (FSEC). CHAPTER 163
INTERGOVERNMENTAL PROGRAMS

Florida Statutes (Full Volume 2002)
163.04 Energy devices based on renewable resources.—

(1) Notwithstanding any provision of this chapter or other provision of general
or special law, the adoption of an ordinance by a governing body, as those terms
are defined in this chapter, which prohibits or has the effect of prohibiting
the installation of solar collectors, clotheslines, or other energy devices
based on renewable resources is expressly prohibited.

(2) No deed restrictions, covenants, or similar binding agreements running with
the land shall prohibit or have the effect of prohibiting solar collectors,
clotheslines, or other energy devices based on renewable resources from being
installed on buildings erected on the lots or parcels covered by the deed
restrictions, covenants, or binding agreements. A property owner may not be
denied permission to install solar collectors or other energy devices based on
renewable resources by any entity granted the power or right in any deed
restriction, covenant, or similar binding agreement to approve, forbid, control,
or direct alteration of property with respect to residential dwellings not
exceeding three stories in height. For purposes of this subsection, such entity
may determine the specific location where solar collectors may be installed on
the roof within an orientation to the south or within 45 degrees east or west of
due south provided that such determination does not impair the effective
operation of the solar collectors.

(3) In any litigation arising under the provisions of this section, the
prevailing party shall be entitled to costs and reasonable attorney's fees.

(4) The legislative intent in enacting these provisions is to protect the public
health, safety, and welfare by encouraging the development and use of renewable
resources in order to conserve and protect the value of land, buildings, and
resources by preventing the adoption of measures which will have the ultimate
effect, however unintended, of driving the costs of owning and operating
commercial or residential property beyond the capacity of private owners to
maintain. This section shall not apply to patio railings in condominiums,
cooperatives, or apartments.

Solar Guppy · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

The people who run HOA are your neighbors, not some evil company, get out, meet and discuss with them your project. Most, are not qualified to have the positions they hold, but by default end up in the board because no one else wants to work for free in the thankless job

Where you might get an issue, isn't the solar, but the stand-alone structure doesn't meet the legal by-laws of your lot ( or the 120mph Florida building code for that matter ). The simple way around this is roof mounted, which as long as you own the structure, the HOA probably doesn't have any language in your covenants to address

I'd write a letter citing the Florida law that would allow you do the installation and send it certified mail, receipt requested. Also, nothing is stopping you from the installation, IE you need building permits, not a letter from an HOA.

All the HOA can do is take you to court, which you just show up, quote the law if it is indeed applicable, better make sure you have reviewed both the law and your covenants

It very common for HOA's to do things that are not legal or they don't know the laws new or old. A decade ago, when I became an HOA treasurer, the previous treasurer spent 3k of the HOA funds fighting the installation of the small satellite dished that the FCC passed a law saying HOA's could regulate them. I nix that right away. And remember, any costs come directly out of your pocket, the HOA is only funded by dues from the home owners assessments.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

"Where you might get an issue, isn't the solar, but the stand-alone structure doesn't meet the legal by-laws of your lot "

You might be right on that.
The Florida law doesn't apply to blalcony/porches on townhomes from what I have read.
The law doesn't really mention ground mount arrays, but my gut feeling is that they are covered under the law; the intent of the law is to encourage solar and some technicality about excluding ground mount arrays would contrary to it's purpose.

But my hunch is that you are wrong and the HOA has denied it solely on aesthetic reasons/ the fact that it is visible from the street.

It will not be very noticeable from the street, but if that is their argument I will say we will install it on the front roof and make it very very noticible and be absolutely covered under the law, maybe then they will see the "light"

Thanks, Rolland

Solar Guppy · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Your issue is the structure, which IS covered by the covenants. The fact you have it dressed in solar panels is secondary.

And laws are very specific, logic, common sense and inference have no place in trying to apply to something other than what is specially stated in the statutes.

For example, build the support structure, can the covenants be enforced, if YES. your DOA on this idea.

All you have to do it roof mount them and your good to go.

The fact you seem inclined to build a 20x60 leantoo in your yard is a valid concern for your neighbors, you all signed onto the covenants when you purchased the property. It is no different than if someone whats to install a 20x60 single wide mobile home on there lot, The covenants are there to keep the neighborhood from turning into a freak-show.

I suspect you know exactly what I mean, just drive a mile or too some area's without HOAs and see what the lots have turned into redneck shrines ... HOA's didn't just show up for no reason.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Solar guppy sorry you are wrong, there is no language in the D&C that prohibits solar ground mount structures, ive read the whole boring thing. You can't have a metal storage shed, but this is not a shed.

If they want us to take the side walls off that is not a big deal, but the side walls will help with any hurricane strength winds from getting under it and make it look nicer IMHO.

I already posted the roof in another thread which you replied to and said their was shading issues, so it could be done with enphase, but not a very good choice.

Besides what looks more like a freak show? 20 panels on an angular roof in odd directions smack in front of the road or 50 panesl in a neat array in the back yard 100 feet from the roadjust peaking over a 6' tall privacy fence which can only be seen from certain angles? . i bet most people will say the first first choice.

and some HOA's are evil, you can read story after story of HOA's that foreclosed on people and made their life hell over trivial matters. Most of them are supported by HOA companies who could fall off the face of the earth and no one would miss them.

Solar Guppy · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

If I recall, you reason for elevation of the structure was so you could have "storage" underneath?. You don't need to be 12ft off the ground for solar ground mount.

We all have opinions, and I respect yours, I was trying to give you a honest view of what I see, having 10 years of the last 15 volunteered on my HOA board. HOA members have a single function, to enforce what the covenants dictate, they by law can't deviate from what is recorded in the deeds.

You can hire a lawyer, keep in mind they get paid no matter what and will be more than willing to defend your position, regardless of the likelihood of success.

If I were in your shoes, I would put the array on the roof, micro inverters are much lower cost than the proposed 20x60 elevated structure, which will require as much mass as a home for the wind code at its base, if you can get it built. I suspect your looking at 50-60K to build it code compliant, sans anything to do with your HOA

solar_dave · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott wrote: »

Solar guppy sorry you are wrong, there is no language in the D&C that prohibits solar ground mount structures, ive read the whole boring thing. You can't have a metal storage shed, but this is not a shed.

If they want us to take the side walls off that is not a big deal, but the side walls will help with any hurricane strength winds from getting under it and make it look nicer IMHO.

I already posted the roof in another thread which you replied to and said their was shading issues, so it could be done with enphase, but not a very good choice.

Besides what looks more like a freak show? 20 panels on an angular roof in odd directions smack in front of the road or 50 panesl in a neat array in the back yard 100 feet from the roadjust peaking over a 6' tall privacy fence which can only be seen from certain angles? . i bet most people will say the first first choice.

and some HOA's are evil, you can read story after story of HOA's that foreclosed on people and made their life hell over trivial matters. Most of them are supported by HOA companies who could fall off the face of the earth and no one would miss them.

Speak to a lawyer on the subject, Many will give a quick consultation over the phone and a few will specialize in renewable energy. I went through the same thing in AZ and when the HOA is faced both the law and the real possibility being sued by a reputable attorney, will usually relent. Make sure you have sent a reference to the law, the lawyers name (and possibly a letter referencing the issue) along with your application to the HOA, and make sure your municipality will allow the structure. I know here in AZ an added structure must meet certain wind loading requirements so may need an drawing and engineers buy off stamped on the drawing. Also add a paragraph to the application asking the HOA for what part of the covenants is the application violating. If they are then dumb enough to violate the law you should have a great case to sue for damages. I know mine denied me twice until faced with a real attorney, which shows your serious about fighting the issue.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Ok I'll respectfully disagree, obviously if the D&C are illegal they by law have to deviate from them.

The main point of having it elevated is because my sister doesn't want all that land eaten up by a low mounted array and privacy fence will shade it, being able to sit in the shade or store things underneath were nice bonuses.

I've already gotten some quotes for a completely made structure and they are closer to the $10k to $20k range. Most expensive was around $30K by Floridian, all of them with windload engineeirng done.

I'll let you know what happens and appreciated your input even if we dont' see eye to eye, Thanks!!!

Solar Guppy · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Keep in mind, the structure components are the only part of the cost, you going to need the equivalent weight to a home the size of the structure in concrete ( and footers ), looking at many cubic yards ( 50 - 100 Cubic Yards as a educated guess ) and construction labor of all the above.

Homes in Floirda have the mass of the footers, block walls and slab as "free" anchoring when roof mount the panels, plus you don't have the "sail" issue.

And trust me, you never going to want to be sitting under the array, the radiant energy will fry eggs, similar to an uninsulated porch in the summer

2manytoyz · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

To get back to the first post, I did install panels on my home that's part of a 200 home HOA. I had a copy of the FL statute already printed out, just in case they tried to deny my "request".

I received an excited phone call that evening from the HOA president. He gave me a verbal YES over the phone, and had the signed request in my hand the next day.

I expected to get some grief, but was plesently surprised. I did mount them on the South side of my roof, which isn't really visible from the street due to trees blocking the view. Got lucky with that. Might not have gone as smooth if the South side of my house faced the road, and didn't have anything obscuring the view.

I think the lawyer idea is excellent. Might end up costing you a couple of hundred bucks, but might end up saving months of hassle and expenses fighting it.

From my limited dealings with HOAs, they generally have good intent. Sometimes they can be a bully, but if a lawyer goes after them, they often back off. No money for the HOA to legally fight their "opinion" unless it's a clear violation of a written rule. We do have a lawyer on retainer, but they use his services very $paringly.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

"the structure components are the only part of the cost, you going to need the equivalent weight to a home the size of the structure in concrete ( and footers ), looking at many cubic yards ( 50 - 100 Cubic Yards as a educated guess )"

The area under neath the structure is 12x60' about, which is around 60 yd^2
There is no way you would need almost 3 foot thick slab, much less a 6 foot thick slab.

I could be totally wrong, but an open structure will provide a nice shade I think, no walls to keep heat inside.

RCinFLA · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

You are not going to win as a detached structure.

Under your reasoning anyone could build a detached shed or garage and put a PV panel on its roof and call it a PV support structure.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

"You are not going to win as a detached structure."

when i win, I won't come back here and tell you that you were wrong

solar_dave · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Rolland can you post a aerial view of the site? like a google maps view?

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

solar_dave · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Yeah that roof design doesn't lend itself much to a solar install except a very limited one.

Your ground mount now looks somewhat reasonable, perhaps a scaled back roof and ground mount combo might be more acceptable to them.

RCinFLA · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Looks like pool solar heaters on east and west facing roof. Front facing south house is bummer for solar.

I see no detached structures in the neighborhood. HOA cannot stop you from putting up PV panels but they can stop you from putting up a detached structure. In my neighbor detached structure is prohibited. One homeowner put up a detached three car garage within 10' of house at its edge and put an attached covered hallway between house and garage to get around no detached structure rule.

You can probably get by with a 25 deg up tilt extension from back side edge of pool screen enclosure which would not be a detached addition. Would be like a covered patio extension to back side of pool enclosure. Would have to check house shading in winter. You might be able to move a pad further back from screened in patio with a small covered extension hallway from screened in patio.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

do you have personal knowledge of ground mount detatched structures NOT being covered under florida's law? or are you just assuming so?

RCinFLA · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott wrote: »

do you have personal knowledge of ground mount detatched structures NOT being covered under florida's law? or are you just assuming so?

Not a Florida law. It is a common HOA covenant. From the satellite shot of your very nice neighborhood I guess 99% probability it exist in your covenants. That is why I looked over Google satellite view of your neighborhood to see if there was any detached shed, garages, or pools. I see none, not even a pool, so there is no precedence you can use. HOA can't stop PV panels but they can prevent a detached structure.

My HOA has a no detached structure clause. My neighbor has a screened in covered, in ground pool, which was approved by HOA board, that has a separate concrete pad about 10 feet from his original back patio. The HOA's has put its no detached structure rule in a likely unenforceable position with the detached screen in enclosure approval.

A covered walkway from you enclosed pool area to your new structure may get you around the 'no detached structure' rule.

solar_dave · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Lots of HOA's have that kind of rule and many cities also limit external structures by a variety of code requirements. Here you must have enough land, the set backs are controlled by distance vs height, and only 1 external structure per lot if it meets the above requirements. Anything else is a zoning variance (read a real PITA).

You really should go talk to the code guys first and see if they will allow the external structure, or even an attached structure to meet you needs and get around the letter of the covenants. In any case if you have already pissed off the HOA your battle will be larger, you need to remain calm and step through the process.

Have you considered a covered trellis system? a landscaping add? While it might still require an HOA approval it may be more acceptable than a lean to.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

I'll suggest a few different structures and see what the HOA likes, but before I do that I am going to ask what their solar panel criteria are, as the FL law clearly states that the HOA must have uniform criteria.

Anyone know of any HOA criteria that is fair? It might make their job easier if I suggest certain things, because I'll be this is the first solar PV system anyone has tried to set up in the community.

I don't want them making up crap on the spot. HOA's are famous for not being consistent and double talk and I'm not going to put up with that.

Peter_V · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott wrote: »

FLORIDA LAW PROHIBITS AND FORBIDS - any entity from being denied the right to install solar collectors or any renewable energy source on a Florida building.

Unless I'm missing something, that law does not apply to you. It only protects your right to install the panels ON A BUILDING

It does not appear to cover ground mounted arrays.

You can install them on your roof and be protected, but not on the ground

Peter_V · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Solar Guppy wrote: »

Keep in mind, the structure components are the only part of the cost, you going to need the equivalent weight to a home the size of the structure in concrete ( and footers ), looking at many cubic yards ( 50 - 100 Cubic Yards as a educated guess ) and construction labor of all the above.

Sorry, but that doesn't seem like a very "educated" guess to me.

My array is mounted on 10 foot poles and is rated for 100+ mph winds (we've had winds up to 75 mph)

Each array is on a 10 foot tall poll with about 104 sq ft of panels and uses about 0.6 cubic yards of concrete (2 foot diameter, 5 foot deep).
That single footing has to handle all of the reaction force of the array.

A multiple legged structure would not require as much concrete on each leg because the load is spread out over a larger area. But even if it did, that would still only be about 3.5-4 yards of concrete.

100 cubic yards would be a 20' x 50' solid slab of concrete over 30" deep, that's a ridiculous amount of concrete.
Heck my entire house has less than 35 yards of concrete, and that includes the 2+ car garage, driveway, and patio out back.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

"Unless I'm missing something,"

yes you are missing a lawyer's degree to interprete the law correctly. LOL.
next time try reading the actual law, not the summary of it. Seriously read the law, not the abstract that preceeds it.

No deed restrictions, covenants, or similar binding agreements running with
the land shall prohibit or have the effect of prohibiting solar collectors,
clotheslines, or other energy devices based on renewable resources from being
installed on buildings erected on the lots or parcels covered by the deed
restrictions, covenants, or binding agreements.

Peter_V · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott wrote: »

"Unless I'm missing something,"

yes you are missing a lawyer's degree to interprete the law correctly. LOL.
next time try reading the actual law, not the summary of it. Seriously read the law, not the abstract that preceeds it.

You are taking that out of context.

It states: "installed on buildings erected on the lots or parcels... "

It's talking about ON THE BUILDING that is ON the lot or parcel

There is no comma or semi colon there.

techntrek · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

Yup, parcel = lot, for all intents and purposes. I read that as you can put it on your house and that is as far as the law protects you.

No, I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't mind playing one on TV.

rollandelliott · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

well it doesn't really matter how you interpret the law.

Between the HOA, a lawyer and home's owner we'll come to an agreement.

Really can't believe their are people on this board supporting HOA's position, but oh well. The spirit of the law obviously wasn't meant to be interpreted as some of you think it is.

If you do some research on the law you'll actually find out it was amended after some Nasty HOA decided it didn't apply to them. FL Govt. revised law to shove it to Nasty HOA. Now Nasty HOA can't do squat about any "ugly" solar panels.

Blackcherry04 · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott wrote: »

well it doesn't really matter how you interpret the law.

Between the HOA, a lawyer and home's owner we'll come to an agreement.

Really can't believe their are people on this board supporting HOA's position, but oh well. The spirit of the law obviously wasn't meant to be interpreted as some of you think it is.

From some reading on the subject the HOA may prefer to agree to some kind of a ground mount.

http://www.sunbuilt.org/florida_solar_rights_law_flier.pdf

techntrek · August 2011

Re: Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

rollandelliott wrote: »

Really can't believe their are people on this board supporting HOA's position, but oh well. The spirit of the law obviously wasn't meant to be interpreted as some of you think it is.

If you took my interpretation as my supporting the HOA's position or supporting HOA's in general you "obviously" are wrong. I used to live in a HOA community and when we were ready to move #2 on my list was "no !#$%ing HOA". And yes, I got involved with my HOA to try to fix it from the inside and was very glad to leave it all behind when I moved.

And "obviously" the spirit of the law isn't obvious otherwise everyone on here would agree with you. I'm pulling for you, I think every house in the world that has a decent sun exposure should have PV on it (or near it). I just don't think that what you quoted supports your position to erect a separate structure.

Florida HOA denies solar panel installation even though florida law says that

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