Battery toxicity and safety

Mariner777
Mariner777 Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
I have a few questions regarding sealed lead acid batteries. Its said not to keep them in rooms which people inhabit, however on my sailboat this is virtually impossible as the cabins are not all air sealed below deck - ie the engine is basically in the living space as well so to speak. Are there health concerns from lead (I dont go chewing on the terminals or anything), or hydrogen from gassing during charging? I have them all in battery boxes and the cabin is well ventilated by fans and hatches. How much hydrogen are we talking say from 10 amps of solar charging a 400ish amp hour battery? I find it hard to believe that hydrogen would be able to concentrate as it must be extremely volatile due to its mass. I'd imagine it would pretty much instantaneously mix with the air and dissipate to extremely small concentrations. Of course I am speculating and would love to know more about this as I am living with batteries in my living space so to speak and there is almost no way around it short of leaving the batteries out on deck - the heat would destroy them and there are many many reasons this is not going to happen.

Has anyone heard of lead poisoning or hydrogen explosions from having batteries in living spaces? Are there any other potential health or safety concerns?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #2
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Sealed batteries like AGM's are very safe and can be used in living quarters without worry. They do not "off gas" like regular FLA's (unless something goes horribly wrong). You can only get lead poisoning by ingesting the lead; since it is not exposed and you won't be handling it there's little cause for concern. Unlike FLA's, AGM's are not considered "hazardous" for shipping; they are that safe.

    The biggest worries with batteries is not their toxicity but their flammability: the hydrogen and oxygen that FLA's give off (in very small quantities) while charging is explosive. The amount of current any of these large capacity batteries have is enough to start fires through spark or over-heating of conductors (usually shorted). The acid inside is nasty stuff; eats holes in things like clothing and can do serious damage to sensitive tissue.

    Over-all, the AGM's are relatively free from safety issues, outside of the electrical concerns.

    Been working with batteries for a very long time. So far the worst I've ever suffered is some "moth eaten" clothing. :roll:
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    Mariner777 wrote: »

    (regarding lead/acid batteries in living space) Are there any other potential health or safety concerns?

    Well there was one incident here a few years back. Not kidding, this is true. Guy living not far away, stored a car battery under his bed over winter. All was OK until he had a Christmas party and a young lady decided to stay and share his bed after being promised a hot time. Soon after, there seems to have been some rather vigorous physical activity in said bed. Enough in fact for the bed springs to contact both battery terminals, get hot enough to ignite the bed, followed by the battery exploding. He had promised her a hot time, and that's what she got. Luckily no one was seriously hurt, and he later explained that the reason it happened had nothing to do with the physical activity taking place, rather it was because the battery was "only partly charged, and that any battery stored over winter should either be completely discharged, or fully charged, to prevent it exploding". The fire department of course knew the real story and everyone had a great laugh at his expense. :p:p:p:p
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #4
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    I know a man who lost his hand and wrist to a battery explosion. He doesn't have a great story, he was just careless with it.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    as coot said their shouldn't be any problem with a properly charged and maintained agm battery inside the living area or in a boat. one purpose battery boxes have is to have a proper place to put them in where one doesn't have to worry about shorting the terminals and getting a bigger bang than expected from that hot time.:blush: being in a boat it may be a good idea to have a way of strapping it in place that won't encase the battery which would cause it to build up some heat. a tad of air space around the battery would be desirable.
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,006 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    Mariner777 wrote: »
    ...sailboat this is virtually impossible as the cabins are not all air sealed below deck - ie the engine is basically in the living space as well so to speak. Are there health concerns ...?

    Your engine compartment should be sealed and vented to the outside, it posses more saftey concerns than SLA batteries.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • Mariner777
    Mariner777 Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #7
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    The engine is vented through exhaust outside - its in an engine compartment but realistically its not airtight sealed out of the cabin. I never run it anyway.

    How do batteries explode? Is there enough hydrogen and oxygen gassed off in charging to be a real fire hazard? Wouldnt the gasses rapidly dissipate? The boxes have vents in the tops of the lids which I presume are to stop hydrogen from accumulating.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    Mariner777 wrote: »

    How do batteries explode? Is there enough hydrogen and oxygen gassed off in charging to be a real fire hazard?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgfwH6zRmRA

    Any spark at all around a led-acid battery can result in it exploding. That's why car owners manuals point out that when boosting a car with a dead battery, the very last jumper cable connection should not be at the battery negative terminal where a spark could be created, but instead, to a good ground on the engine, away from the battery. Imagine the pain of having acid sprayed in your eyes! First the pain, then the learning to live without sight!
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  • Mariner777
    Mariner777 Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #9
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    This is making me start to consider spending the big bucks for AGMS. I still cant quite get my head around the idea that small amounts of hydrogen are produced that would likely quickly dissipate as they are not in a container. If an open flame came in contact it would seem that a small amount of hydrogen could ever be present. There are open flames on my boat both from the stove and lighting candles/ etc but in a year have never had a problem. So the explosions we're talking about are the gasses from the charging process and there is no other way lead acid batteries explode? Are the amount of gasses released proportional to the amps used in charging? My PV system peaks around 17 amps and is usually under 10 often under 5 on a 710 amp hour battery bank so I would guess that not much gas is being produced but am posting this because I dont know and would like to find out...
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #10
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Additional scary stuff. Look up lead acid batteries plus sea water. Equals chlorine gas.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,613 admin
    #11
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    AGM's are sealed so "safer"... However, if over charged and as they age out--releasing hydrogen gas through their over pressure reliefs is a possibility--so always treat them with respect.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Especially with known ignition sources within your cabin I would not use a flooded lead-acid, no. It can produce an explosion big enough to maim you severely - not something you want to happen 20 miles out, or at all - or even sink your boat.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #13
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    two different systems are mentioned here.

    First, 10 amps into a 400ish AH bank
    Second, 5-10 amps into a 700ish AH bank.

    Unless the solar charging is only a backup to engine or generator charging, it's severely mis-matched. Are your solar panels trickle chargers, or do you expect them to bring your batteries up to full capacity? They won't.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #14
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    bmet wrote: »
    two different systems are mentioned here.

    First, 10 amps into a 400ish AH bank
    Second, 5-10 amps into a 700ish AH bank.

    Unless the solar charging is only a backup to engine or generator charging, it's severely mis-matched. Are your solar panels trickle chargers, or do you expect them to bring your batteries up to full capacity? They won't.

    in addition a charging source that low in percentage will not be worth worrying about gassing the batteries as it really isn't doing much in the way of charging to produce any gas. when you get into a good range for charging you will want the agm type over fla not just on the gassing issue, but on an efficiency issue too as agms do handle low charges better.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    Mariner777 wrote: »
    So the explosions we're talking about are the gasses from the charging process and there is no other way lead acid batteries explode?

    Some industry-standard battery safety rules:

    • Working in the vicinity of a lead acid battery is dangerous.
    Batteries can generate explosive gases during operation.
    Never smoke or allow a spark or flame in the vicinity of a
    battery. Provide sufficient ventilation around the battery.

    • Wear eye and clothing protection. Avoid touching eyes while
    working near batteries. Wash your hands when done.

    • If battery acid contacts skin or clothing, wash them
    immediately with soap and water. If acid enters an eye,
    immediately flood the eye with running cold water for at least
    15 minutes and get medical attention immediately.

    • Be careful when using metal tools in the vicinity of batteries.
    Dropping a metal tool onto a battery might cause a short
    circuit and possibly an explosion.

    • Remove personal metal items such as rings, bracelets,
    necklaces, and watches when working with a battery. A
    battery can produce a short circuit current high enough to melt
    objects such as rings, causing severe burns.

    Food for thought, food for safety.

    And FYI, I had a car battery blow it's top off while sitting in city traffic. What triggered that explosion? I had no idea and still don't today. Never will. The battery still worked, still started the car, but big chunks were totally missing out of the top and plates/acid exposed.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Get a Marine Battery box, if your batteries fit in the, and duct/vent it outside the hull
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
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  • Frxddy
    Frxddy Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭✭
    #17
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    A couple of times you expressed that you don't understand how enough hydrogen can accumulate to make an explosive atmosphere. If it weren't so serious, it would be comical, but strangely enough, literally, you are thinking outside the box and that's why you're not seeing it. The hydrogen that causes the explosion is inside the battery. Above the level of the acid is an air space. That space gets filled with hydrogen and being enclosed it presents the explosion hazard. Now, add a spark to what little hydrogen has leaked outside of the battery and the flame path follows it through the vent holes and ka-boom.

    On very rare occasion a battery will have an internal short circuit that causes a spark inside the battery. Again, ka-boom. That's probably what happened to the battery that exploded sitting in traffic.

    This may not be "by the book", but I do two things when hooking up a jumper connection: One: Like blowing out candles on a cake, I blow across the top of the battery just before making the connection. My hope is this clears any hydrogen. Two: I scratch the jumper rather than clamp it on. It should make no spark or a tiny spark. If it makes a larger spark, you have the polarity backwards. If the polarity is backwards & you clamp on, you risk melting cables and shorting out internally. Of course the proper way is to make the final connection as mentioned, to the frame away from any battery, but that isn't easy sometimes.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #18
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Hydrogen is a very llight gas. It will freely excape from FLA battery vents.

    One of the things that make hydrogen dangerous, is its range of flammability. I remember this range as being, 3% concentrations to 94% concentrations from some distant college chemistry class. It is really from 4% to 94%oncentrations, but that is in a oxygen atmosphere.

    In air the range of flammability is ONLY in concentrations of 4% to 75% (at one atmosphere) -- from Wikipedia.

    This makes hydrogen DANGEROUS.

    The hydrogen liberation occurs toward the end of a charge cycle in later Asorb, and at charge voltages above this level, like the EQ cycle.

    Just my opinion, the lower efficencies of FLA result from this part of the cycle, where the water in the electrolye is cracked into its constituant gasses. This is only my opinion. Lower charge currents can liberate hydrogen, but the battery needs to be at a high SOC. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    I remember in my youth jumping starting an old HILO and the battery exploded enough spray acid, luckily I had safety glasses on and there was a wash station within 30 feet. It made a spectacular sound.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #20
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    I remember one time we were playing around and trying to force a charge in a sulfated motorcycle battery that had a vent hose. We'd put a pressed down baggie over the end of the hose and fill it with the hydrogen/oxy mix coming out the hose. When full, would hold it closed and ask some unsuspecting bystander to hold a lighter to the bottom corner of the baggie. There would be an instant and very loud, sharp BANG!, the baggie would instantly cease to exist and the "helper" would be back against the wall with eyes as big as saucers, wondering what the heck just happened. Hahahaha
    I suppose I should now expect a visit from Homeland Security:blush:
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  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    I remember one time we were playing around and trying to force a charge in a sulfated motorcycle battery that had a vent hose. We'd put a pressed down baggie over the end of the hose and fill it with the hydrogen/oxy mix coming out the hose. When full, would hold it closed and ask some unsuspecting bystander to hold a lighter to the bottom corner of the baggie. There would be an instant and very loud, sharp BANG!, the baggie would instantly cease to exist and the "helper" would be back against the wall with eyes as big as saucers, wondering what the heck just happened. Hahahaha
    I suppose I should now expect a visit from Homeland Security:blush:

    Hehe we did that with torch set, makes a he'll of a bang.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #22
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    my father many years back was trying to charge up the battery in his car. it was charging for a bit and he then repositioned the cables as he felt they weren't making good enough contact. the resulting spark exploded the hydrogen coming from one of the cells in the battery spraying him with acid. lucky for him it did not hit him in the face as he turned away just in time. after immediately washing off he was fine, but shaken. his clothes were garbage.
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  • Mariner777
    Mariner777 Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #23
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Wow you guys would make excellent AGM battery salesmen!

    Am not using flooded but rather sealed lead acid batteries. In a year have had no problems but I do think I should give some more thought to there mounting and ventilation. Am considering putting all the lead acids in the lazarette (basically amounts to putting them in the engine room) and getting a pair of AGMs for my forward cabin needs...

    I cant stomach the price though AGMs are 4x the cost of sealed lead acid.

    Anyone know of bargain priced AGMs?
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  • chevenstein
    chevenstein Solar Expert Posts: 100 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Might as well throw my battery story in: when I was a kid my neighbor (a dairy farmer) had a big Hough mining loader he used to shovel silage, etc. He wasn't much for maintaining things so when its generator (yes, generator, it was pre-alternators) went out he took to simply parking it next to his shop and throwing the massive 24 volt semi battery on the charger for a couple hours every day. This particular machine had the battery in a box under the left hand side of the cab with all of the gauges and switches mounted on a panel that composed the top of the battery box.

    One day he climbed up into the machine after disconnecting the battery charger (which was on wheels and looked almost as big as the arc welder), turned the power switch on, hit the CRANK button and BOOM! Battery box blew the door open, acid sprayed out the side of the machine, and most of the electrical stuff in there including the gauges were toast.

    Scary thing is when I was a teenager and worked for that farm summers that same loader was still going and still didn't charge its own battery! I took out the corner of a barn with that thing due to its lack of reliable brakes when I was 15...good memories.

    Anyway, to the point: flooded lead acid batteries can and will ruin your day and your boat, best go AGM. Good luck!
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #25
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Battery Maintenance is an important issue. The battery should be clean. Cable connection needs to be clean and tightened. Many battery problems are caused by dirty and loose connections. Serviceable battery needs to have the fluid level checked regularly and only at a full charge. The fluid level will always be higher at a full charge. Distilled water is best; tap water is loaded with chemicals and minerals that are harmful to your battery, but not as bad as no water. Don't overfill battery cells especially in warmer weather. The natural fluid expansion in hot weather will push excess electrolytes from the battery. To prevent corrosion of cables on top post batteries, use a small bead of silicon sealer at the base of the post and place a felt battery washer over it. Coat the washer with high temperature grease or petroleum jelly (Vaseline). Then place cable on post and tighten, coat the exposed cable end with the grease. Most folks don't know that just the gases from the battery condensing on metal parts cause most corrosion.
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    To add to that, re terminal, lug and cable corrosion, for about 10 years now with my 6 FLA, L-16's I've yearly given all terminals etc a light spray of a product called Rust Check, and after roughly 10 years, ALL terminals, lugs, connections at, on or around the batteries are like new without a hint of corrosion, despite being in an enclosed, but vented battery box. I couldn't be more satisfied. Spoke to one guy some years ago about it and he told me he's never use such a produce because it would get in between the connections and partially insulate, thus increase the voltage drop. Had a look at his setup and was shocked to see a mass of corrosion and partially eaten away cable ends. And no, there is no detectable voltage drop, heating, or anything else bad that has ever happened at or around my batteries. Except of course for the time I dropped a wrench across a couple of terminals. Big sparks, but no explosion. Lucky or what?:blush:
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #27
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    waynefromnscanada wrote: »
    ...Except of course for the time I dropped a wrench across a couple of terminals. Big sparks, but no explosion. Lucky or what?:blush:

    Did you buy a lottery ticket that day too ??
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Hahaha In hindsight, perhaps I should have. :p
    I also learned that day to cover the batteries with an old blanket when I work around them with metal tools, regardless of the fact that I have no intention of dropping anything on them. :P :P
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #29
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    the blanket is a good idea wayne. if you do something like that again let us know for maybe doing that is your bad luck and if you have bad luck maybe we have better odds on some good luck. i'll play the lottery then that day.:D:p
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  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    #30
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety
    niel wrote: »
    the blanket is a good idea wayne. if you do something like that again let us know for maybe doing that is your bad luck and if you have bad luck maybe we have better odds on some good luck. i'll play the lottery then that day.:D:p

    Hahaha, but on a serious side, I don't mind telling others of my screw-ups, hopefully they have a chuckle, but far more importantly, I hope they realize what I did wrong, learn from my mistakes, and hopefully avoid possible disaster.;)
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  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    #31
    Re: Battery toxicity and safety

    Your wrench incident reminded me of a screwdriver accident which happened to a master electrician. He was wiring in a light switch on the exterior of a corrugated metal building. This man always kept a long screwdriver sticking out of his front shirt pocket. It must have contacted something, because there was blue flash and a BOOM( I was standing next to him).

    I don't know what really happened, but after the "scared scatless" wore off the electrician said the building had been electrified. As a BTW, I was 8 yrs old, and my father had me following this man around as his tool holder.
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