Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

outback had problems with the fm series that i am not sure if they corrected the problem or not. had something to do with it seeing charge current at night or something like that. also note the fm series was reported as giving off lots of rf interference if that matters to you.
the classic is much newer and can do more than the fm 80, but it really depends on your requirements does it not?
maybe this will help you.
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/comparisonChart.pdf

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Hi James,

You probably have seen this comparison chart:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/pdfs/comparisonChart.pdf

It is from Midnite, but think that it is objective.

Couple of things, first, my OB MX-60s have been great CCs, and both are still running after six years in service.

However, the MN Classic 150 has just a little bit more output current capability than the FM-80. All of the Classics have two Aux outputs (one is configurable as an input), They ARE Field Firmware Updatable (not a small feature -- the OB units need to take a ride to the WA, if you are in the USA).

All of the things that have made the MX-60 such a great box should be there in the CL, as the founders of MN were the founders of OB.

The one caveat, is, of course, that the CL is a new product. There will be issues with getting all of the features working well. But for the most part, the changes will be in the firmware, which can be updated while the CC is on the wall.

Another nice thing about the Classic is that the graphic display panel is removable, and connects via a CAT-5 cable (IIRC). So no extra widget is required to have a remote display. Even if you just wanted to move the display 6-or-so feet, the flexibility in mounting can simplify the layout, and slightly reduce voltage drops, as the CL can be placed where it needs to be, without regard to needing to read the front panel ... and so on.

EDIT: in looking again at the FM manual, seems that the Cl 150 has a max charge current of 90-ish amps with reasonable input voltages, vs the fixed max of 80 with the FM-80.

CL Power Graphs:
http://www.midnitesolar.com/images/classicFrontPage/graphs.php

The Hyper VOC of the classic can a bit of a benefit if you are pushing the Vin, as the Max operating Vin is the point where the CL ceases operation, and that voltage plus the nominal battery is the must NEVER exceed point -- a bit more margin than the FM appears to have.

I'm, jazzed about the Classic, and its current capabilities, and those yet to be implemented. I have no interest in any of the Solar companies, but do like the flexibility of the MN Classic.

Good Luck, Vic

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Both are excellent charge controllers as both have boB as their primary source of engineering excellence.

I've had words with various folks about the importance of flashing firmware yourself. I'm more ambivalent (and hypocritical -- my products can be field upgraded ...) than many. I don't see any great need to reflash firmware for a stable device. Yes, new features, but also potentially new bugs. I like my firmware well aged.

Time for my opinions --

The #1 advantage of the FM-80 is that it =is= a more mature product, and that's worth something. Quite a bit in my opinion. The #2 advantage is that it integrates with OutBack inverters via a single display -- the Mate display controller. If new inverters are in your future, something to think about.

The #1 advantage of the Classic is the greater range of input voltages, which seem to cause more people more problems than you can shake a stick at. The #2 advantage is the ability to upgrade in the field.

Net/net -- if you have a "mission critical" need, as in are living off-grid far from the rest of civilization, I'd go with the FM-80. If you have a less mission-critical need and can wait for a firmware patch, or you want to run a high-voltage array, the Classic is your best bet. Different applications, different solutions.

If you don't expect to upgrade your inverters, we do provide monitoring solutions that integrate with all manner of gear, and our prices and features are competitive. Hopefully I'll have Classic support soon, and if I can get ahead of customer demands for gear, I hope to get NAWS to sell them through their on-line store -- which would be very cool as it would free my time up a bit.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

niel wrote: »

i can say that the mx series was bob's all the way, but i'm not too sure how much of bob's efforts trickled to the fm series as i believe he and robin were out of outback before the fm series. i'm not too sure of the direct engineering part either as it may have been addressed while they were still there to some degree, but i don't know. we'd have to hear from them on that one, but there are basic influences there as in basic design takeoffs for sure.

The internals of the FM look 95% the same as the MX60.
The terminal block was changed as well as some components in that area moved. Looks like the rest of the circuitry is exactly the same. They did however increase the processor memory size by going to the next size up micro. I remember it as being absolutely full.... Something I never want to have happen again. It's hard to do all of that stuff in 32K of flash.

Also, Darren upgraded the menu structure some as well as changed the tracking code from the timed mini-sweeps to a dynamic tracking method. That is the biggest change as far as I can see. There are giveaways in how the code runs and info in the misc screens that show that it is really the same code skeleton but the skin has changed some. It's still fairly reliable as far as I know, though so that's great.

boB

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

The problem as I understand it is the outback takes 3-4 minutes to do a sweep and during that time it is unregulated.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

I was going to use Outback until I saw the Midnight Solar. Bought 2 of them for RV installs.

Here is my take on updating firmware.

First, sending any device back to a factory or service center to update firmware in this day and age is a waste of customer time.

Second, who keeps around an extra CC so they don't have downtime? That might be ok if you are permanently located but not if you are mobile and storage space is at a premium.

Computers have been firmware upgradable for a long time and the number of problems when doing so if very very small percentage wise. Sure it happens and when it does it isn't nice but they are far and few between. It really is a step by step process and if you take your time, it isn't that big a deal.

With the advent of the Midnight Classics, being able to add features or refine the operating functions is worth it's weight in gold and here is why:

Should you come across an anomalous error or need an enhancement that might not ever find it's way into a general release, you can get this via a firmware update and take care of business as soon as it is ready, not after you disconnect, ship, wait, ship and re-connect and pray it works.

A final though, say you hose the system because the firmware didn't take. Are you any worse off than had you sent it back to the factory, got it back and also had the problem? We'd all like to think manufacturers test before shipping but things can and do happen.

For me, give me the ability to update the firmware or I just get something else.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

I was considering the Xantrex MPPT 60 because of price or another FM80 as a second controller as I have another 900 watts of panels sitting idle. Now I'm leaning towards the Midnight Classic even though it's quite a bit more $. Looks like this controller could handle 1500 watts . So much to consider.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

I think I should share this:

My MX60's fan stopped running after almost 4 years of use. I emailed Outback, asking for a quote on the fan.

This is their reply:

A fan will be sent to you free of charge and will ship out Monday.Your confirmation# is SO-12540 Francine Flores
Customer Service
Direct Tech Support: 360.618.4363
OutBack Power Technologies
6115 192nd Street NE　
Arlington, WA 98223 USA Tel: 360.435.6030　 Fax: 360.435.6019
www.outbackpower.com

That was a week ago.
The fan arrived two days ago, free of any charges!
I do realize the cost of such a fan is just peanuts. But oh boy, that's what I call GREAT SERVICE.
When you buy anything, one of the factors you should take into consideration is custommer service, and I think Outback's is awsome.

Kudos to the folks at Outback.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Dave Sparks wrote: »

That is great service! Reminds me of Xerox and their service contracts until Cannon came out with machines that did not need a contract.

Dave:

I don't know if you are familiar with the mx60, but if you are I ask: Is that fan really necessary? I mean: the fan is really tiny, no more than 1.25 square inches. How much hot air can it exhaust?

Ok, I received it and am going to install it. So this is just curiosity.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

just to be clear here, boB and robin were the founders of outback power and they left. (not sure of reasons) they have formed a new company of midnite solar and the policies that are basically in place at outback for customer service was attributed to them and the service at midnite solar is in no way any less great now for that is where they are now. boB has also confirmed that most of the fm design was originally his so you know outback is a good company, but those that made it and made it great (i'm not discounting or dissing other good people that may be in outback) are at midnite solar.

so you are comparing 2 companies that in many ways are the same and both are winners, but only one has boB and robin now and only that one is pushing high innovation in products along with good service and it is because they are there. common sense.

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Dave Sparks wrote: »

The MX-60 set a benchmark for Offgrid that others improved on!

Yes... And it has been extremely difficult for anybody to do much better than the old MX60. There was one in particular that tried and failed,, even with fans and it wasn't the fan that was at fault.

If you count only the fan aspect, yes there is no fan to break. However, the units can get much hotter because of that missing fan.

I don't suppose you would buy a car without an oil filter or oil pan plug just so you didn't have to change your oil and filter.

Let's just hope that fans are either better now days or at least easy to replace.

Dave, what was it that OutBack filed circularly ?

boB

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Making the fan easier to replace in the MX60 would not have been easy or inexpensive which is probably why that one didn't go any further. BTW, the Classic isn't as easy as I would like to replace they are easier than the MX. We also extensively tested the fans we use and hopefully don't have any rude surprises from the manufacturer.

Agilent equipment is of course top of the line, no holes barred lab equipment that usually costs thousands of dollars and can afford an expensive fan.

Inverter charger ?? OK.. Keep your eyes and ears open.

I hear you on keeping the geeky adjustments more hidden. Trying to do that too and hopefully have one setting to pick for 90+ % of the users.

boB

Re: Midnite Classic 150 vs Outback 80 ???

Cariboocoot wrote: »

Someday there may be a solar power museum. If so, the Outback MX60 will be prominently displayed in it. Never heard of anyone who didn't like theirs, and that's rare for any type of product.

A Midnight Solar inverter that communicates with a Midnight Solar charge controller with built-in battery monitor? Hmm. True sine wave, real surge capacity, 240 VAC output, dual capacity with sleep/search to save stand-by power ... a fellah can dream, can't he?

There is the Hi Tech museum in San Jose CA. Plenty of solar there already!
Alot of it started in the silly valley, as well as LA and back east!