Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch
tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
My distributor for solar pumps also installs grid tie systems, so after some research I had them price a 6K system for me. Priced at $5 a watt installed complete. I did some research and it looks like a good deal, but not sure. My electric utility is charging an average of 18.4 cents a KWH. Looking to minimize the damage to my checkbook.
THANKS:confused:
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Comments

  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    details needed

    Panel model , manufacture , quantity
    Inverter Model and Manufacture
    Panel mount, angle and direction
    Can you do net metering?
  • Frxddy
    Frxddy Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    My rates are the same and I'm doing research on doing pretty much exactly what you are. $5 a watt is fair as long as they are quality panels installed in a quality manner. I got a quote of just under $5 a watt for a 7K system from a local company that has a good reputation, but discovered they do not use flashing on the roof penetrations. After a lesson from me in roofing and how water moves, they not only included flashing for my job, I'm pretty sure they will use it on every job in the future. As much as they worked diligently to do things right, they never realized how important flashing is when you penetrate a roof. I think I got through to them when I asked "Even with a tight fit, and the best caulking on Earth, would you ever put a vent pipe through a roof with no flashing?"

    So, do your home work on the exact products they use and how they install.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Not sure of the components yet as the rep just looked at my place yesterday. I did tell him I wanted american made components as much as possible. Mounting will be to a pole building with hail damage to the roof, no penetration though. The rep said they liked Evergreen panels as the warranty is good.
    I'm fairly confident they will do a good job as they want me to sell the systems for them.
    i will be doing net metering, but hopefully won't be selling any KWHs back as they only pay .03.
    It'll be interesting!!!!!!!!!
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    if your only getting 3 cents to sell, that is not net metering, net metering is when the price is the same for buy and sell.

    Without the make and model of the parts, its hard to offer any input. You should be aware the with the solar producing durring the day your likely to export at the 3 cents rate a signifigant amount of your energy ... its unlikely you will be doing much more than giving half your energy away
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    There are lots of different net metering plans, mine allows me a watt for watt exchange on peak and off peak. Jan - May I run up credit Kwh against my summer AC usage and I get retail draw off the grid. Come Sept I am at about break even on the credit and from Oct - Dec I run up some excess, then on Dec 31 the utility settles up at a "generation cost" rate of $0.065 per Kwh and credits my next years account with the excess $$$$. So last DEC credit was $250. I have been gradually burning that this year to cover the non generation costs like service charges, meter read fees, etc. I still have a $70 credit balance.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    By net metering I meant that I build what credit KWHs during the summer then use them in winter when I'm not producing as much as I use. (running the meter backwards)
    By my calculations a 6k system will produce about 110% of what I currently use so IF there's an excess it won't be large.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    What was the reference to the three cent payment rate from the utility? That's what raised a red flag for me. If you don't mind posting, who is your electric company?
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    What was the reference to the three cent payment rate from the utility? That's what raised a red flag for me. If you don't mind posting, who is your electric company?

    .03 is what my electric company will pay for any excess KWHs produced over a years time. My electric company is Northwest Rural Public Power, and they only have to pay their wholesale rate in Nebraska.:cry:
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    I'm not convinced its net metering ...

    http://www.nrppd.com/Wind/Renewable_Resources_are_Intermittent/index.html

    " The rate for kilowatt-hours received from the DG Owner / Operator shall be based on Northwest Rural’s monthly average purchased power cost."

    That's wholesale, not retail

    You need to have a talk and have in writing that your getting net metering from your utility. The reason is this, durring the day, high load items will cycle on and off so better than 50% typically of your PV will be in excess of consumption and be exported. If I'm reading the above correctly, you only get 3 cents credit, not retail

    Also, its very clear, that they reserve the right at any time to change the rules as they are a non-profit, this isn't like state law mandated net metering. You are making this purchase based on 25+ year commitment. Your power company could tomorrow say its costing to much to deal with solar and disallow solar to be grid connected at all.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    I'm not convinced its net metering ...

    http://www.nrppd.com/Wind/Renewable_Resources_are_Intermittent/index.html

    " The rate for kilowatt-hours received from the DG Owner / Operator shall be based on Northwest Rural’s monthly average purchased power cost."

    That's wholesale, not retail

    You need to have a talk and have in writing that your getting net metering from your utility. The reason is this, durring the day, high load items will cycle on and off so better than 50% typically of your PV will be in excess of consumption and be exported. If I'm reading the above correctly, you only get 3 cents credit, not retail

    Also, its very clear, that they reserve the right at any time to change the rules as they are a non-profit, this isn't like state law mandated net metering. You are making this purchase based on 25+ year commitment. Your power company could tomorrow say its costing to much to deal with solar and disallow solar to be grid connected at all.

    Nebraska has a state law that mandating "net metering" passed in 2009. (LB 436)
    Up until that time NWRPPD charged $75.00 a month for interconnection and they still don't like it, but were forced to allow it.
    My contract with the installer won't take effect until I get the contract with NWRPPD.
    The contract states it's a yearly adjustment, not sure if that's Jan1 or a year from the install. In other words any excess will be paid for one way or the other at the end of that year.
    I'll still have to pay the monthly "facility charge" ($17.00) but much better than .18 cents a KWH + the facility charge.
    I realize this isn't the optimum arrangement, but it's the best I can do as far as I know.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=NE07R&re=1&ee=1

    LB 436

    "Any excess generation produced by the system during the month will be credited at the utility's avoided cost rate for that month and carried forward to the next billing period"

    This wording is suspect ... if they dual meter or dual register your connection, any excess generation is credited at wholesale ( avoided cost ).

    Talk to your electric company and find out how they intended to meter the excess generation, with only 1300 customers they are probably counting every penny they sell.

    Do not rely on anything the installer claims, his motive is to sell you a system. whether it makes financial sense or not.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    I have talked to the utility company and the down side to that is I will be paying the higher tiered rate bacause I will be using less per month. This is their rate schedule.
    First 500 kwhs=.2151 per kwh
    Next 500 kwhs=.1095 per kwh
    Next 500 kwhs=.0981 per kwh
    Over 1500 kwhs=.0726 per kwh
    My average monthly use is 710 kwhs which equals a cost of .184 cents per kwh average, plus the $17.00 facility charge. Therefore if I produce a small amount of excess it will help, even at .03 cents per kwh.

    I will talk to them again before signing a contract with them and have more information.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    My billing is almost the exact opposite. $0.50 over 1,000 kwh and less than $0.12 for less than 300kwh.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    BB. wrote: »
    My billing is almost the exact opposite. $0.50 over 1,000 kwh and less than $0.12 for less than 300kwh.

    -Bill

    That I could live with, but dang don't want to move.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Yikes, that's a very punitive rate.

    Your banking on the 6kw system zeroing out your bill, it will reduce your khw during the day, but at night your going to be billed almost 22 cents while the credit is at 3 cents.

    What you will likely see is reducing your kwh by ~50% and then a cash credit for the exported enegry @ 3 cents while you buy it as 21.5 cents

    So your savings will be 200kwr @ 11 cents , 150 kwh @ 21 cents and a credit of probably 350kwh @ 3 cents

    22 + 31.5 + 10.5 = 36 dollars a month

    Figure your net system cost is 21K after the tax credits your break even is ~48 years and that doesn't include parts replacement every 10 years or so.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    Yikes, that's a very punitive rate.

    Your banking on the 6kw system zeroing out your bill, it will reduce your khw during the day, but at night your going to be billed almost 22 cents while the credit is at 3 cents.

    What you will likely see is reducing your kwh by ~50% and then a cash credit for the exported enegry @ 3 cents while you buy it as 21.5 cents

    So your savings will be 200kwr @ 11 cents , 150 kwh @ 21 cents and a credit of probably 350kwh @ 3 cents

    22 + 31.5 + 10.5 = 36 dollars a month

    Figure your net system cost is 21K after the tax credits your break even is ~48 years and that doesn't include parts replacement every 10 years or so.

    What am I missing here?
    According to the programs I've ran (IMBY) etc. a 6K system should generate 8400 kwhs per year, my use for the last year is 8500 kwhs.

    8500 X .184 = $1564.00

    This is my cost per kwhs only, not including the facility charge.

    IF? it is a yearly adjustment it looks like I've saved $1542.50 during that year. :confused:
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Solar Guppy is looking at the ambiguous language about how billing is done.

    Holes large enough to drive a billing computer through.

    My own local utility is known for dramatically increasing bills by interpreting the language in their favor.

    I think he is suggesting that you get the exact billing setup in writing.

    I.e., exactly what will the billing meter bill. One register that goes forwards/backwards and the utility bills/pays you on the month end balance (1 month net metering)?

    Or does the meter have two billing registers; One that reads power used, and a second that logs excess power generated (virtually, second by second net metering). A much worse rate structure for you.

    Some utilities even install two meters. One logging power used, another all power generated.

    The short description could be any of those--Or something else.

    Trust but verify. Your utility may be completely honest and giving you an ok monthly net metering plan. But we cannot tell.

    -Bill "l think that is what sg is saying" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Your states net metering law is not symmetric on the rates, its in the language I quoted and is similarly the same on the Electric company website, again which I linked and quoted.

    Here in Florida, they do the same thing, they only have to pay wholesale rate if at the utility's expense they dual register/meter and guess what just about every where that's what they do. I happen to be in a city owned electric system that is OK with solar ... its very rare around here and get "close" to retail, their billing system can't handle crediting the taxes right.

    On your electric companies website, they show all the solar connected customers, all three of them and the billing is interesting as for all three systems they show zero for energy sold from the customers to the utility.

    http://www.nrppd.com/cust_service/Net_Metering_Annual_Report/index.html

    Your little electric company would go under if even 10-20% of the customers could do symmetric net metering, you have less than 1300 residential cleints and they aren't in a position to give anyone a free ride, which is what symmetric net metering is.

    So back to your confusion, your applying simple math to a complex problem. For starters, you have inverse tiered rates. So your first 200kw is only saving on the cheap 11 cents energy. The remaining 500kw could be netted out, if and only if they give you retail pricing on exported energy ( sold by you ) ... nothing anywhere on the electric company website shows this and neither does the state law.

    Actually the website is very anti renewable energy, primarily wind systems that have been connected. There is some graphs that show at times the wind systems proving 150% of the entire system load, this causes big problems for them, they would have to idle generation, and export themselves at a loss ... they are just much to small for integrating in variable RE sources

    http://www.nrppd.com/Miscellaneous/PDF/March_09.pdf

    And this page pretty much summarizes your electric company thoughts on PV, they offer to find installers for you, so you can go OFFGRID for systems that the lines are to expensive to run too

    http://www.nrppd.com/cust_service/products/photovoltaic.html

    Please post back when you get direct answers from Northwest Power,

    Your questions to Northwest Power are
    :

    What is the means for measuring energy exported to the utility?
    What is the rate you will be paid for that energy.


    If its favorable, get it in writing before you sign a contract with an installer

    Update:

    This has my interest, so I did some Goggling , Its appears it maybe even worse than I thought:

    http://www.cleanenergyauthority.com/solar-incentives-and-rebates/nebraska/nebraska-net-metering/

    They only have to buy back at 1 cent kwr and only if the RE component is less than 1% of total generation. Since you have RE wind in the system that is way over the 1% amount, that lets your utility not have to buy back anything, which matches the three systems in the PV report above
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Boy I feel lucky out here in CA, When I put my system in last year I got to stay 1SH/NEMS. I have usage tiers but no Time-of -Use Smarth Meter installed. Just a Digital Net meter and at $0.125/KWh before taxes. A 12 month true-up cycle, I will see how that works come this August.
    Keep us posted on how you make out. It is still comforting to know you are making you own power from the sun.
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • Frxddy
    Frxddy Solar Expert Posts: 113 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    It certainly sounds like you need to do more homework & get things in writing.

    That 1% generation cap talked about I think is for the entire electric company, not the individual home owner. One place it says "the cap for credits in this program is 1 percent of the total energy produced by the utilities companies".

    I mention it because that's how it is here in Maine. If the total of all solar and wind generated by homeowners reaches 1% of the total of all power used in the state, then they will revisit net metering and decide what to do. Most likely those in the program will be grandfathered and newcomers will have whatever is offered after the new negotiations. As for now: Net metering 100%, credits last one year.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    The components for the system are:
    28 Evergreen ES-A 210W panels
    PVPowered inverter
    Square D disconnect

    Also talked a bit with the utility. They use Jan. 1 as the settlement date on a yearly basis. While not the best for me according to my calculations if the system is installed by July I will have produced roughly 40 more KWHs than I've used at that time so NOT a big issue.

    January and February are the biggest months as far as my use so I will be buying power then. Just not as much.

    While it isn't a life threatening deal now, the future of coal powered generators is in question by many and that's where most of the utilities power is coming from.

    I'm not looking to buy a $21000.00 yard ornament either, but with the rates I pay (in the top 2% in the state) I'm looking to save some now and more in the future.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    tmarch wrote: »
    ......
    While it isn't a life threatening deal now, the future of coal powered generators is in question by many and that's where most of the utilities power is coming from.....

    no trouble running out of coal in USA for a few more years. Taxes on it's electricity to re-distribute the wealth may be another thing though.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    mike90045 wrote: »
    no trouble running out of coal in USA for a few more years. Taxes on it's electricity to re-distribute the wealth may be another thing though.

    The main problem with coal isn't the availability, but the clean air act and whatever else the EPA deems necessary for them to operate.:roll:
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    OK got the final word from the utility. They do monthly adjustments NOT annually. Meaning I won't be selling them any power that will offset my winter use. I tried to convince them but didn't work. Now they shut off irrigation systems in the summer time because it would cost them more to power them??????????????????
    Guess I have misinformed on this part or.....................
    Still have the idea I'm gonna do this for several reasons:
    I like the idea of independence.
    I want to protect myself to a degree from future rate increase.
    I have the $ in a IRA that is making basically nothing with the interest rates today.
    My question is WHY NOT DO IT?
    Payback is not in the equation, saving is.
    What is the cost of a KWH for solar once the system is up and running?:confused:
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    tmarch; before you sign and spend run yourself some hypothetical systems on PV Watts: http://www.nrel.gov/rredc/pvwatts/

    That will give you some idea how many kW hours you could expect and what they're worth.
    Compare that value for about 20 years (or whatever warranty time is offered) against the costs of proposed systems. You're probably going to see numbers like $0.50 per kW hour over twenty years.

    Don't forget to check into any and all rebates/credits you may be entitled to.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Thanks for the reply, been there done that.
    They are saying my cost is .2 KWH and they are using a figure that's roughly 45% of my actual cost.
    My average cost is over .18 per KWH now and what will it be 10-20 years from now?
    Dividing the cost of my system by the annual electical I pay now is showing the payback at 12.25 years.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    tmarch wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply, been there done that.
    They are saying my cost is .2 KWH and they are using a figure that's roughly 45% of my actual cost.
    My average cost is over .18 per KWH now and what will it be 10-20 years from now?
    Dividing the cost of my system by the annual electical I pay now is showing the payback at 12.25 years.

    Please go back and read my posts, you are on a tiered rate. A 45% reduction is on the cheap 0.11 cent electric , not the 0.20 cent, you right there your math using averaged is flawed and would double your payback period.

    Also, the amount you get credited each month is not one to one its wholesale rate, not retail, and depending on the tier, its 2 cents to 11 cents or 20 cents or 5 to one to 10 to one for the credit

    Your "installers math" is to sell a solar system and its totally wrong

    From what I have read you could never break even on this due to your utilities fee structure. If you feel I am in error, do us both a favor and show me your calculations and compare to the detailed ones I posted in May, so far I don't see anything wrong with what I posted previously.
  • tmarch
    tmarch Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

    Ok, here's my actual use figures for the last year.
    10600 KWH @ .186 =$1971.60
    9798KWH=7000 watt system output according to nrel IMBY
    802 KWH @ .2151=$172.51 + $204.00 facility charge =$376.51
    $1971.60-$376.51=$1595.09 yearly difference
    System out of pocket after rebates =$24,500

    That appears to be a 6.5% return on my investment which is better than I'm getting currently by 5%.

    I realize there is going to be insurance costs @ $140.00 a year + there will be some maintenance costs for parts that break/wear out etc.

    Unless something changes there will also be rate hikes which should affect me less with the system operating.

    I did decide to go with a 7000 watt system due to the fact I've had some additional usage this year over last year.

    The payback is longer with the additonal figures, but still should be less than 20 years.
  • sub3marathonman
    sub3marathonman Solar Expert Posts: 300 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    tmarch wrote: »
    Ok, here's my actual use figures for the last year.
    10600 KWH @ .186 =$1971.60
    9798KWH=7000 watt system output according to nrel IMBY
    802 KWH @ .2151=$172.51 + $204.00 facility charge =$376.51

    From those numbers, it appears that the true cost of those last 802 kWh is almost $0.47/kWh.

    Now, maybe for just 802 kWh it isn't worth it, but I was wondering if even at the 7000 watt system and a bit more conservation if it might be possible to go completely off-grid. Over ten years you would save over $3700, which would pay for almost half the cost of needed batteries (24 Surrette 2V, 1050 Ah @ $333 from Wind-Sun).

    Also, what upsets me is that the meter won't run backwards, and they won't allow you to just subtract from your usage what you "export," even though you're "importing" just a second or two later.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system
    tmarch wrote: »
    Ok, here's my actual use figures for the last year.
    10600 KWH @ .186 =$1971.60
    9798KWH=7000 watt system output according to nrel IMBY
    802 KWH @ .2151=$172.51 + $204.00 facility charge =$376.51
    $1971.60-$376.51=$1595.09 yearly difference
    System out of pocket after rebates =$24,500
    .

    Try again, you have a tiered rate, you need to break out the cost for the 20 vs 11 cent electric, there is no 18.6 cent rate