Signed a contract on a 6K system

sub3marathonman

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

I have talked to the utility company and the down side to that is I will be paying the higher tiered rate bacause I will be using less per month. This is their rate schedule.
First 500 kwhs=.2151 per kwh
Next 500 kwhs=.1095 per kwh
Next 500 kwhs=.0981 per kwh
Over 1500 kwhs=.0726 per kwh
My average monthly use is 710 kwhs which equals a cost of .184 cents per kwh average, plus the $17.00 facility charge. Therefore if I produce a small amount of excess it will help, even at .03 cents per kwh.

I will talk to them again before signing a contract with them and have more information.

If using 710 kWh/month, you will only be in the first two tiers. Calculating at 710 kWh gives an average of 18.4 cents / kWh. And the less a person uses at these rates, the closer the cost / kWh approaches 21.51 cents / kWh.

Even using 920 kWh one month, and 500 kWh the next month, your average will still be the same 18.4 cents / kWh. Only if you go over 1000 kWh in a month would the average change, and then only slightly lower, or if somehow you were able to use less than 500 kWh in another month.

And adding in the somewhat high $17.00 facility charge just makes every kWh that much higher.

Solar Guppy

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

No No No No No ... did I say No?

You have to know what the PV is replacing each month

You have to know what the PV excess is in $$ as this isn't net metering


From the information I have read on the utilities website:

First 500 kwhs=.2151 per kwh
Next 500 kwhs=.1095 per kwh

So for starters, any electric offset by solar is the 10.95 cents energy, not the 21 cent stuff until the usage falls below 500kw

Next, the utility doesn't pay retail for exported energy, they pay wholesale which is about 2 cents. The utility will use dual metering ( can be a single meter with dual registers ). The Home owner will get a monitory credit each month for no more than usage. But, at 2 cents, he will never ever have this as the system is 1/5th to 1/10th credited on a khw the retail pricing per kwh on exported energy.

The actual net, is very low, without net metering, most energy will be exported at the 0.02 cent rate as the home owner doesn't have high demand loads during the day ( like we have here in Florida with AC ). Its an average load and without true net metering he is spending 25K to sell power at 0.02 cents without carry forwards for anything over the base house hold loads

Maybe someone else can explain this better for the OP, but I am 100% certian in this case your at best could offset 25% of the usage / reduction of the bill and better than 75% of your energy will be credited at the 2 cents rate.

So for your ROI calculation, do it getting 2 cents for 75% of the solar generated energy and 11 cents for the remain 25% as that's what will be offset during the day, the cheaper second tier energy.

Solar Guppy

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Here is what I get as an estimate for your ROI

Based on 25% is nets out and 75% is exported using your rates

And this is optimistic as it assumes all energy, either the 12 or 2 cent get a credit, but if you have a net credit ( generate more than used in $$ ), that is lost since you have no carry forward from month to month. This will likely happen in the May - Sept time frame for where you live

sub3marathonman

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Solar Guppy wrote: »

No No No No No ... did I say No?

You have to know what the PV is replacing each month

You have to know what the PV excess is in $$ as this isn't net metering

Yes, after the third explanation I now see it.

What was happening is I was calculating based on usage and payment to the electric company, which they maximize, vs. Solar Guppy's calculating savings for the homeowner with a PV system, which this specific electric company has minimized.

And that is back to my complaint. You shouldn't have to be getting the low "exported" price until you've exceeded your electric usage, not on a second by second basis, but on a monthly basis or yearly basis. With the low-tech wheel meter spinning backwards this was accomplished. Now with the high-tech meters some utility companies have managed to subvert the intent of what "exported" should mean, or at least what it means to me.

Solar Guppy

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

What you are missing sub3 is most locations in Florida are the same as the OP. You and I are VERY lucky to be on Lakeland Electric, which pays close to retail for exported energy.

Your gaming the TOU with your XW and batteries isn't helping the cause to allow true net metering, I know LE isn't at all pleased with what you are doing. At anytime LE could simply institute dual register as the State Law allows, some food for thought.

BB.

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Move to California and you can get the "inverted rate" structure... My E-7 TOU rates (pdf):

Summer [peak/off peak]
Baseline Usage $0.31550 ( ) $0.09273 ( )
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.31550 ( ) $0.09273 ( )
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.47823 (I) $0.25546 (I)
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.51823 (R) $0.29546 (R)
Over 300% of Baseline $0.51823 (R) $0.29546 (R)
Winter [peak/off peak]
Baseline Usage $0.12294 ( ) $0.09598 ( )
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.12294 ( ) $0.09598 ( )
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.28567 (I) $0.25871 (I)
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.32567 (R) $0.29871 (R)
Over 300% of Baseline $0.32567 (R) $0.29871 (R)

It is like going to Costco and paying 5x more because you purchased in Bulk on a summer weekday afternoon. Note that Baseline for my home is ~300kWH per month (about 1/3rd the average US home electrical usage).

But we have a pretty good 1 year net metering program (buy/sell at retail).

-Bill

jeffkruse

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

I like the idea of independence.

Is this going to be a hybrid system with battery backup? If not then you are completly dependent on the grid.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

As long as the system offsets my usage per month I will NOT be writing the utility a check for the KWHs used that equals a savings in my opinion.

I will be billed the facility charge, no matter what my production is.

My meter WILL run backwards according to the utility.
As far as exporting, (selling) the utility any power, that is NOT going to pay and I agree.

I'm also planning to add batteries in the future to eliminate the grid if I choose.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

jeffkruse wrote: »

Is this going to be a hybrid system with battery backup? If not then you are completly dependent on the grid.

I also have a generator so until I get batteries in place I can be independent to a degree, but the main use will be for a power outage.

jeffkruse

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

I'm also planning to add batteries in the future to eliminate the grid if I choose.

How can you add batteries later? I have a hybrid system so it can sell to the grid and have batteries but it MUST have batteries to work. You can't add them later unless you basically redesign the system

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

I will redesign the system when I add the batteries.
But this will allow me to get started while the 30% tax credit is in place I hope.

jeffkruse

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

I will redesign the system when I add the batteries.
But this will allow me to get started while the 30% tax credit is in place I hope.

You will need new inverters and a couple of charge controllers and some big batteries $$$$.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Finally have the system installed an I wish I would have done it earlier. It's working well and doing more than I anticipated.
THANKS for all the encouragement!!!!!!!!!!

Rick1

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

Finally have the system installed an I wish I would have done it earlier. It's working well and doing more than I anticipated.
THANKS for all the encouragement!!!!!!!!!!

I am shur all of us will be looking forward to seeing a picture of your utility bill for April and May.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Well I don't have a scanner so you'll have to take my word for it.
April bill =$20.10 total and that includes the $22.00 fee for having a meter.
Haven't got my May bill, but it will be in the neighborhood of $23.00 as I did use a bit more than I "delivered" to the power company.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Here's a report of the first 3 months with my system. The cost figure is including the $22.00 access charge to have the utility hookup.
Mar. 1012 KWH used, 506 from the utility and 566 from my system-cost = $20.10. Cost of 1012 KWH from the utility = $190.56
April 1693 KWH used, 504 from the utility and 494 from my system-cost = $24.16. Cost of 1693 KWH from the utility = $256.33
May 1002 KWH used, 496 from the utility and 506 from my system-cost = $21.68. Cost of 1002 KWH from the utility = $188.45

Savings of $569.40 for the 3 months.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

After 1 year with my system the return has been better than I expected. 7.8% of the total investment and 11% of the cost after the 30% tax credit. Sure beats my 1.2% IRA.:D

Dashadeaux

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Tmarch,

For you to get 506 kWhs from the utility and only pay $20.10 (Mar 2012), there's got to be a ton of credit the utility is allowing you that hasn't divulged in this thread. From the kWh rates alone the charge for first 500 kWhs alone is $107.55.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Dashadeaux wrote: »

Tmarch,

For you to get 506 kWhs from the utility and only pay $20.10 (Mar 2012), there's got to be a ton of credit the utility is allowing you that hasn't divulged in this thread. From the kWh rates alone the charge for first 500 kWhs alone is $107.55.

Ok there's a lil misunderstanding, I produced and exported more than 506 KWHs to the utility so got credit for the extra. The utility reads the meter and then bills me for the KWHs used + or - what I send them. Make sense now?;)

Dashadeaux

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Tmarch,

tmarch wrote: »

Ok there's a lil misunderstanding, I produced and exported more than 506 KWHs to the utility so got credit for the extra. The utility reads the meter and then bills me for the KWHs used + or - what I send them. Make sense now?;)

I still cannot make sense of your numbers. I'll consider only the May of 2012 numbers you posted simply because I perceive the May numbers have the least inconsistency of the three months (Mar, Apr, and May).

From your June 13th, 2012 post, in May your home consumed 1002 kWhs, of which the local utility supplied 496 with your solar system supplying the remaining 506. According to your postings, your utility will charge you .2151 cents/kWh for the 496 they sent to you. That amounts to $106.69 for those 496 kWhs. In the post you indicate the utility charged you just $21.68 and this is where I run into a problem. Presuming the $21.68 was your total monthly bill for the utility supplied 496 kWhs, your utility company is treating you very well indeed.

One reason I'm posting here is that I've dissected my own electric bill and understand every line item therein , and in so doing I've become interested in how others are fairing once solar production starts. OK, you have a different utility that no doubt has different line items and charges than does mine. So I'm really curious as to what charges/credits you are getting that will drop your bill so precipitously?

My utility reconciles my excess kWhs once a year, in Dec. When I provide extra power to the grid, the utility on a monthly basis, credits each of the per kWh line items with an equivalent amount they charge for a kWh they supply to me. For example, the utility charges me a .027 cent delivery charge for each kWh they supply to me and credit me with .027 cents for each kWh I add to the grid.

I've asked for particulars about your bill and feel it only proper to divulge mine. Here are my numbers for Jan 2013...

My apologies for posting such a terrible looking table...



I have an 11.4 kW system.
The underlined amounts are per day charges, all others are per kWh.




Without solar assist:


Customer account charge
7.14


Delivery service
36.15


Environmental benefits surchg
6.42


System benefits charge
3.98


Power supply adjustment
-5.59


Metering
5.58


Meter reading
1.86


Billing
2.10


Generation on peak
42.86


Generation off peak
19.41


Transmission & ancillary svcs
6.96


Transmission cost adj
7.23


Cost of electricity you used
134.09



With solar assist:


Customer account charge
7.14


Delivery service
1.00


Environmental benefits surchg
0.36


System benefits charge
0.11


Power supply adjustment
-0.15


Metering
5.58


Meter reading
1.86


Billing
2.10


Generation on peak
0.00


Generation off peak
12.08


Transmission & ancillary svcs
0.19


Transmission cost adj
0.20


Cost of electricity you used
30.46

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Dashadeaux wrote: »

Tmarch,


I still cannot make sense of your numbers. I'll consider only the May of 2012 numbers you posted simply because I perceive the May numbers have the least inconsistency of the three months (Mar, Apr, and May).

From your June 13th, 2012 post, in May your home consumed 1002 kWhs, of which the local utility supplied 496 with your solar system supplying the remaining 506. According to your postings, your utility will charge you .2151 cents/kWh for the 496 they sent to you. That amounts to $106.69 for those 496 kWhs. In the post you indicate the utility charged you just $21.68 and this is where I run into a problem. Presuming the $21.68 was your total monthly bill for the utility supplied 496 kWhs, your utility company is treating you very well indeed.

One reason I'm posting here is that I've dissected my own electric bill and understand every line item therein , and in so doing I've become interested in how others are fairing once solar production starts. OK, you have a different utility that no doubt has different line items and charges than does mine. So I'm really curious as to what charges/credits you are getting that will drop your bill so precipitously?

My utility reconciles my excess kWhs once a year, in Dec. When I provide extra power to the grid, the utility on a monthly basis, credits each of the per kWh line items with an equivalent amount they charge for a kWh they supply to me. For example, the utility charges me a .027 cent delivery charge for each kWh they supply to me and credit me with .027 cents for each kWh I add to the grid.

I've asked for particulars about your bill and feel it only proper to divulge mine. Here are my numbers for Jan 2013...

My apologies for posting such a terrible looking table...



I have an 11.4 kW system.
The underlined amounts are per day charges, all others are per kWh.




Without solar assist:


Customer account charge
7.14


Delivery service
36.15


Environmental benefits surchg
6.42


System benefits charge
3.98


Power supply adjustment
-5.59


Metering
5.58


Meter reading
1.86


Billing
2.10


Generation on peak
42.86


Generation off peak
19.41


Transmission & ancillary svcs
6.96


Transmission cost adj
7.23


Cost of electricity you used
134.09



With solar assist:


Customer account charge
7.14


Delivery service
1.00


Environmental benefits surchg
0.36


System benefits charge
0.11


Power supply adjustment
-0.15


Metering
5.58


Meter reading
1.86


Billing
2.10


Generation on peak
0.00


Generation off peak
12.08


Transmission & ancillary svcs
0.19


Transmission cost adj
0.20


Cost of electricity you used
30.46

Sorry all my statements are at my tax accountant as my place is a ranch that gets to pay taxes . Actually they don't list nearly as much as your chart anyway.
My utility meter registers total only, both ways. Meaning that it shows only what I export to the utility and what I import (use) of which some is the over production that I use say at night.
The meter connected to my system shows what it's produced.
The utility charges a flat $22.00 "access charge" just to have the lines in place. So the May 2012 numbers add up to a production excess of 11 KWH that went to the utility over and above what I received back from them. Hope this helps.

Dashadeaux

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Thanks Tmarch,

OK, I'm taking away from this now that the 506 isn't the solar power that went to your home, it is instead the excess power your system generated. The total kWh used by your home in May is most likely an unknown, unless you know the total kWhs your system generated during the billing days. The 496 just represents what your home received from the utility, and that 496 was covered by the 506 excess, with 10 kWh remaining to be reconciled. When I look at it that way it makes sense. It also appears you are very close to producing 100% of the power you require. I wish I were so lucky...

Had we been talking face to face this would have been an easy n' quick discussion. Thanks again for your assistance.

Cheers,
Jack

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

I'm close most months, but will be adding another 4K of panels this year to cover my winter useage, if all goes as planned.
The current system is on a roof with 4-12 pitch so doesn't do well in winter.
House has a 6.5-12 pitch so will be better, but may go with a ground mount for easier access to the panels for snow removal.

ggunn

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

I'm close most months, but will be adding another 4K of panels this year to cover my winter useage, if all goes as planned.
The current system is on a roof with 4-12 pitch so doesn't do well in winter.
House has a 6.5-12 pitch so will be better, but may go with a ground mount for easier access to the panels for snow removal.

What does your utility do if your yearly production surpasses your usage? Most places it doesn't pay to make more than you use in a year.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

ggunn wrote: »

What does your utility do if your yearly production surpasses your usage? Most places it doesn't pay to make more than you use in a year.

My utility credits my account .03 per KWH for any overage each month. I can't put any additional $ in to sell at that rate, but with current rates I could actually make that closer to .15 (the value of each KWH I produced over the past year) by covering my winter usage.
My current system produced 75% of my usage for the year, but only 52% for Oct. thru Jan. so I need more production for that time frame.

Blackcherry04

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Sometimes I wonder if it's all worth it. Since I installed my grid tied system the gas company has reacted with more fees. They added a $12.50 a month service fee and starting this year with another $2.50 in a " Gas Line Tracker " fee. Thats just a way to take anything you save and take away another $180.00 a year for nothing. Any ROI you figured 3 years ago is null and void, but your still stuck with the long term payback on the Solar.

Rick1

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder if it's all worth it. Since I installed my grid tied system the gas company has reacted with more fees. They added a $12.50 a month service fee and starting this year with another $2.50 in a " Gas Line Tracker " fee. Thats just a way to take anything you save and take away another $180.00 a year for nothing. Any ROI you figured 3 years ago is null and void, but your still stuck with the long term payback on the Solar.

I built a total electric house last time to save all those gas metering charges. It works great with solar if you use Geothermal for heat/air. This month's power bill was $16.39. 4 ton Geo and 10.8k PV. in central Illinois.

tmarch

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

Sometimes I wonder if it's all worth it. Since I installed my grid tied system the gas company has reacted with more fees. They added a $12.50 a month service fee and starting this year with another $2.50 in a " Gas Line Tracker " fee. Thats just a way to take anything you save and take away another $180.00 a year for nothing. Any ROI you figured 3 years ago is null and void, but your still stuck with the long term payback on the Solar.

I used to have a house with natural gas, never again. They raised the rate to put in meters that could be read from the car so their meter readers didn't have to walk, then raised them again to buy more cars/trucks for them to drive. Took them 4 years to figure they had a gas leak on their side of the meter because they couldn't smell it from the vehicle.

Blackcherry04

Re: Signed a contract on a 6K system

tmarch wrote: »

I used to have a house with natural gas, never again. They raised the rate to put in meters that could be read from the car so their meter readers didn't have to walk, then raised them again to buy more cars/trucks for them to drive. Took them 4 years to figure they had a gas leak on their side of the meter because they couldn't smell it from the vehicle.

I could get rid of them, but you know it's a option that would still keep my house liveable in case the PV's were compromised in a disaster. It would cost me a new Electrical Entrance, Furnace, Hot Water Heater and Dryer. let's say $8,000. That would take 40 years to get my money back, guess I'll shut my mouth and try to live 10 more years..... I have more than enough Solar to off set my loads on the electrical side, my utility won't buy it, but they bank it and thats worked out pretty good. I went into winter with 2,700 KWH banked and dropped it to around 800 KWH. I may trying adding a Hot Water heater to burn off some.